Statement on George Floyd

Motorsport Marketing, Inc., publisher of Grassroots Motorsports and Classic Motorsports, has provided our readers with a break from the outside world and a retreat from their daily grind for more than 35 years. We’ve hosted writers, advertisers, subjects and readers from all walks of life, using a shared love of cars as the glue to hold our community together.

Through everything from natural disasters to economic strife to actual war, we’ve hosted a safe space for our readers to turn off the outside world and read about the hobby they love. 

We don’t intend for that to change; but there’s a time when silence not only provides a retreat, it provides an implicit endorsement, intentional or not. As protests and violence have erupted throughout our country, we find ourselves compelled to speak out, because silence equals complicity. 

We stand against racism. We stand against violence. We stand for inclusion. We stand for a free press. We stand for speaking out, together.

It's important to back up words with action, which is why we've made a donation to the Southern Poverty Law Center. We encourage others who care to help in any way they can.

Join Free Join our community to easily find more human rights news.
Comments
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Javelin (Forum Supporter)
Javelin (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 1:57 p.m.

Thank you.

chrisv
chrisv New Reader
6/1/20 2:10 p.m.

Thank you.

Shadeux (Forum Supporter)
Shadeux (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/1/20 2:15 p.m.

Awesome. Thank you!

Matt B (Forum Supporter)
Matt B (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/1/20 2:18 p.m.

Well said and another thanks.  There's a lot of good things to say about this community, but it's not quite time to pat ourselves on the back quite yet.  Let's just say I'm grateful for your message and a place to discuss on how to move to a better place than we are now.

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/1/20 2:21 p.m.

Thank you.

Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA SuperDork
6/1/20 2:21 p.m.

Thank you and thanks for donating.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/1/20 2:23 p.m.

I really wish you guys would've looked into the SPLC before donating money to them.  They were once on the side of the common man like the ACLU, but anymore I doubt.  The one thing I respected in this country was the separation of business and politics.  Heck I served 10 years to protect that and our freedoms.  I think your hearts are very likely in the right place, but your donation might not be as charitable as you think.

 

 

parker
parker Reader
6/1/20 2:29 p.m.

Awesome.  Good job.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/1/20 2:31 p.m.

It's true–no charity is perfect. At the end of the day it's your money and your choice, and the ACLU is a fantastic pick for your donation. Our math was simple: Would the world be a better place if we spent our monthly marketing budget with Facebook, or with the SPLC? They'll definitely do more with it for the world than Facebook would. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/1/20 2:33 p.m.

I am happy you made this statement. I differ a bit than most, I know, but I tell my kids to be as colorblind as they can. Everyone has been through a lot. Judging what that is by the color of their skin is always wrong, and we are to love everyone. I know colorblindness is frowned upon by many in the mainstream but I maintain it's the best way to move past racism forever.

 

I'll echo the SPLC being a lousy choice, but it's your money. I can't in good consience feed it via patreon anymore, but I'm not leaving the forum or the magazine just yet.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/1/20 2:35 p.m.

I looked at their website. They list more hate groups in California than they do in Texas. 88 vs 63. 

Alaska only has two hate groups, but one of those groups follows the Pagan Viking religion and all want to go to Valhalla when they die. Not sure what to think about that. It might be the weather. 

Maybe it's time to grab my huskies and follow them North. 

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
6/1/20 2:43 p.m.

Thank you.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/1/20 2:44 p.m.

Tom, my point was the ACLU and SPLC are both bad.  Neither is what they once were.  You can easily find and search articles on the issues with both.  Even the New Yorker, which was 100% aligned with the SPLC wrote a very bad piece about them recently.  I'm just going to flat out go on record and say it.  If you can donate money to them, you no longer need any of mine.  Each of us would be better served by giving money directly to persons that need it.  The SPLC's use of your money would be no better than Facebooks or any other social media company.  So long GRM. 

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 2:56 p.m.

I appreciate your statement and bid anthony a bon voyage

John Brown (Forum Supporter)
John Brown (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 2:56 p.m.

Thank you for being here with us.

wreckerboy
wreckerboy SuperDork
6/1/20 3:04 p.m.

Thank you.

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
6/1/20 3:10 p.m.

You continue to be the kind of people that I'm proud to call my friends. Thank you GRM. 

(Jesse) Ransom
(Jesse) Ransom UltimaDork
6/1/20 3:11 p.m.

Thank you, GRM folks.

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
6/1/20 3:13 p.m.

Thanks! heart

dculberson (Forum Supporter)
dculberson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 3:14 p.m.

Yes, thank you guys.

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
6/1/20 3:14 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

 

Sad to see you go. Think of me if you decide to let that yellow boxster go. If I could swing it at the time I'll gladly buy it. angel

R_Holland
R_Holland New Reader
6/1/20 3:16 p.m.

Thanks Tom. Continue to lead the way.

Cooter
Cooter UberDork
6/1/20 3:17 p.m.

Thank you.

boulder_dweeb
boulder_dweeb Reader
6/1/20 3:19 p.m.

Well said, and Thank You!

Very few dissenters, that speaks well of the community.

Rog

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 3:20 p.m.

Thanks, all.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 3:22 p.m.
tuna55 said:

I am happy you made this statement. I differ a bit than most, I know, but I tell my kids to be as colorblind as they can. Everyone has been through a lot. Judging what that is by the color of their skin is always wrong, and we are to love everyone. I know colorblindness is frowned upon by many in the mainstream but I maintain it's the best way to move past racism forever.

 

FWIW, the media isn't the only one saying that.  The point of the color of skin not determining right or wrong or whatever is right, as is love all.  But minorities I know want to be the difference, as have everyone love and accept the differences too.  

Acceptance and end the end, love, is the path forward.

wae (Forum Supporter)
wae (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/1/20 3:24 p.m.
tuna55 said:

I am happy you made this statement. I differ a bit than most, I know, but I tell my kids to be as colorblind as they can. Everyone has been through a lot. Judging what that is by the color of their skin is always wrong, and we are to love everyone. I know colorblindness is frowned upon by many in the mainstream but I maintain it's the best way to move past racism forever.

 

I'll echo the SPLC being a lousy choice, but it's your money. I can't in good consience feed it via patreon anymore, but I'm not leaving the forum or the magazine just yet.

+1 to all of that.  I love what you guys do for motorsports and I love the community that you've built and I intend to remain a part of it, but I've got to look at myself in the mirror every day and I can't do that knowing that I'm giving away "extra" money that's supporting the SPLC. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/1/20 3:29 p.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:
tuna55 said:

I am happy you made this statement. I differ a bit than most, I know, but I tell my kids to be as colorblind as they can. Everyone has been through a lot. Judging what that is by the color of their skin is always wrong, and we are to love everyone. I know colorblindness is frowned upon by many in the mainstream but I maintain it's the best way to move past racism forever.

 

FWIW, the media isn't the only one saying that.  The point of the color of skin not determining right or wrong or whatever is right, as is love all.  But minorities I know want to be the difference, as have everyone love and accept the differences too.  

Acceptance and end the end, love, is the path forward.

Hey Eric, I didn't say the word "media" in there.

I want my kids to love everyone as individuals with their own unique backgrounds, goals, and characters. I know that isn't the mainstream viewpoint, but it's mine. 

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 3:32 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

Ok, normally I see "mainstream" and read "mainstream media" lol.  

But the point isn't to be blnd of who people are- but, like you say, love and accept them all.  Anyway.  It's a tough week.

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
6/1/20 3:32 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

I think it's okay to see color. It is a part of who we are physically and it can help us recognize and understand each other and what we've been through. Seeing a person's color is not wrong. I love that every human is different, I appreciate and love the different color of skin we have in our world. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 3:40 p.m.
wae (Forum Supporter) said:
tuna55 said:

I am happy you made this statement. I differ a bit than most, I know, but I tell my kids to be as colorblind as they can. Everyone has been through a lot. Judging what that is by the color of their skin is always wrong, and we are to love everyone. I know colorblindness is frowned upon by many in the mainstream but I maintain it's the best way to move past racism forever.

 

I'll echo the SPLC being a lousy choice, but it's your money. I can't in good consience feed it via patreon anymore, but I'm not leaving the forum or the magazine just yet.

+1 to all of that.  I love what you guys do for motorsports and I love the community that you've built and I intend to remain a part of it, but I've got to look at myself in the mirror every day and I can't do that knowing that I'm giving away "extra" money that's supporting the SPLC. 

I'm not saying you guys are wrong. But I am going to suggest that you are holding GRM to an impossibly difficult standard. Do you check out the public donations of all of the owners of all of the companies that you buy stuff from? 

slowbird
slowbird SuperDork
6/1/20 3:42 p.m.

I did some searching on the SPLC and it seems that the main issue people have with them is that some of the leadership was more interested in making money than actually supporting the causes the SPLC set out to support. Something that a lot of charities end up doing, in fact. A commentary on how our society works, perhaps, but I'll not go into detail on that.

Aside from that, the general message and sentiment from the GRM statement is 100% appreciated and welcomed.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 3:53 p.m.
yupididit said:

In reply to tuna55 :

I think it's okay to see color. It is a part of who we are physically and it can help us recognize and understand each other and what we've been through. Seeing a person's color is not wrong. I love that every human is different, I appreciate and love the different color of skin we have in our world. 

I agree, though I will also say it is very difficult for me to verbalize since everything surrounding it is taboo for me as a white male. 

What I do know though, is that in general I hear a lot of "I hardly even notice the color of someone's skin" from the same people who also say things like "I have lots of friends who are black" and "we moved to the suburbs because we think the 'schools are better' out here". (hint: all 3 statements are lies)

Pretending an issue isn't there is not solving it. We have to be able to recognize, and embrace, and value, and talk about differences without being offensive and without getting offended. 

Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter)
Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 3:59 p.m.
boulder_dweeb said:

Well said, and Thank You!

Very few dissenters, that speaks well of the community.

Rog

I dissent.  SPLC is very bad.  Unless you're in the SPLC at the top (and not a woman, look it up), in which case the SPLC is GREAT.  If you do this again, please find a real charity that is actually looking to help people besides their top management.

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
6/1/20 4:06 p.m.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
wae (Forum Supporter) said:
tuna55 said:

I am happy you made this statement. I differ a bit than most, I know, but I tell my kids to be as colorblind as they can. Everyone has been through a lot. Judging what that is by the color of their skin is always wrong, and we are to love everyone. I know colorblindness is frowned upon by many in the mainstream but I maintain it's the best way to move past racism forever.

 

I'll echo the SPLC being a lousy choice, but it's your money. I can't in good consience feed it via patreon anymore, but I'm not leaving the forum or the magazine just yet.

+1 to all of that.  I love what you guys do for motorsports and I love the community that you've built and I intend to remain a part of it, but I've got to look at myself in the mirror every day and I can't do that knowing that I'm giving away "extra" money that's supporting the SPLC. 

I'm not saying you guys are wrong. But I am going to suggest that you are holding GRM to an impossibly difficult standard. Do you check out the public donations of all of the owners of all of the companies that you buy stuff from? 

Well, they were the ones nearly begging for us to send them money last month in an effort to keep the lights on. I donated to the cause because I believe in this place and want to support it. I understand that once I donate the money, it is no longer mine and GRM can do what they want with it, but next time the hat is being passed around, don't be surprised if I am not too excited to throw my money in it. I do not want to fund a hate group. SPLC is nothing I want to be affiliated with. I see this as a fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me situation and I don't plan to be fooled again so to speak.

Agree with not remaining silent and with the message put out in the statement other than the dubious choice of where to send the money.

matthewmcl (Forum Supporter)
matthewmcl (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/1/20 4:06 p.m.

My first reaction to SPLC is that they are not quite who they claim to be, and their views can be a little skewed, but doesn't that apply to all of us?  Our country has problems; if only perfect people and perfect organizations can be trusted to do good things then we are all doomed.

This country was not formed by people who agreed with each other, it was formed by people who disagreed with each other.  Our system runs on disagreement and protects/preserves the right and expectation to disagree.

After reflecting on this, I believe that SPLC will do far more good than harm, and I am okay with that.  Even though it would not have been my idea, I will stand behind GRM's decision to donate funds.  We need to protect/promote/preserve/encourage/help people who think differently from ourselves because that is actually the right thing to do.  If we don't, we lose everything we have, too.

If anyone has been researching other organizations that would also be of help, post some names (if that is okay with the mods).  This forum seems to be a community of helpful people.  We can probably help a lot of people all over.

Matthew

wae
wae UltraDork
6/1/20 4:10 p.m.
T.J. said:
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
wae (Forum Supporter) said:
tuna55 said:

I am happy you made this statement. I differ a bit than most, I know, but I tell my kids to be as colorblind as they can. Everyone has been through a lot. Judging what that is by the color of their skin is always wrong, and we are to love everyone. I know colorblindness is frowned upon by many in the mainstream but I maintain it's the best way to move past racism forever.

 

I'll echo the SPLC being a lousy choice, but it's your money. I can't in good consience feed it via patreon anymore, but I'm not leaving the forum or the magazine just yet.

+1 to all of that.  I love what you guys do for motorsports and I love the community that you've built and I intend to remain a part of it, but I've got to look at myself in the mirror every day and I can't do that knowing that I'm giving away "extra" money that's supporting the SPLC. 

I'm not saying you guys are wrong. But I am going to suggest that you are holding GRM to an impossibly difficult standard. Do you check out the public donations of all of the owners of all of the companies that you buy stuff from? 

Well, they were the ones nearly begging for us to send them money last month in an effort to keep the lights on. I donated to the cause because I believe in this place and want to support it. I understand that once I donate the money, it is no longer mine and GRM can do what they want with it, but next time the hat is being passed around, don't be surprised if I am not too excited to throw my money in it. I do not want to fund a hate group. SPLC is nothing I want to be affiliated with. I see this as a fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me situation and I don't plan to be fooled again so to speak.

Agree with not remaining silent and with the message put out in the statement other than the dubious choice of where to send the money.

That's pretty much what I wanted to type but couldn't be that articulate about it.  So, like, what he said.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/1/20 4:16 p.m.

Thank you, Matthew.

I understand why some may be confused–if we were asking for money, why could we then afford to donate money? For starters your Patreon support doesn't even make it to our bank account before it's mailed to the developers (along with all of the ad revenue from this site and a healthy dose of ad revenue from the print magazine).

In this case it was simple: It's important to back up words with action, even when it would be safer and cheaper to only say the words. And no action is ever perfect, but we needed to do something. We funded the donation by pausing our Facebook marketing for the month of June. We'll feel the hit, but we felt it was necessary so we weren't just another company posting a statement but doing nothing. We felt that a charity with a 90.96, 4/4-star rating on Charity Navigator was an appropriate choice. 

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/1/20 4:17 p.m.

Thanks Margie, Tom, Tim and the rest of the GRM staff..  For the love of God i have no idea how you put up with all of us sometimes, nobody else in the business does what you do.  heart

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
6/1/20 4:20 p.m.

GRM's statements are probably offensive to ~20% of the population, possibly even a larger portion of their subscriber/forum base. There's no profit in doing this, it's a statement of conviction. Even if you don't like what they're saying, hopefully you can respect the conviction. I for one am glad for their actions.

Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter)
Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 4:30 p.m.

GRM goes to a lot of trouble to keep politics off the board.  Then flounders the entire organization with a hate group named SPLC. 

  •    Ignorant
  •    Stupid
  •    Really believes in the evil promoted by SPLC and desires to support it

Which is it?

 

dculberson (Forum Supporter)
dculberson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 4:33 p.m.
Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter) said:

GRM goes to a lot of trouble to keep politics off the board.  Then flounders the entire organization with a hate group named SPLC. 

  •    Ignorant
  •    Stupid
  •    Really believes in the evil promoted by SPLC and desires to support it

Which is it?

 

Don't be a jerk. Discussion is one thing but calling them "ignorant, stupid, or evil" is beyond the pale and not reasonable discussion. You're letting your reactionary show.

Nicole Suddard
Nicole Suddard Marketing Coordinator
6/1/20 4:33 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

Thank you, Matthew.

I understand why some may be confused–if we were asking for money, why could we then afford to donate money? For starters your donations don't even make it to our bank account before they're mailed to the developers (along with all of the ad revenue from this site and a healthy dose of ad revenue from the print magazine).

In this case it was simple: It's important to back up words with action, even when it would be safer and cheaper to only say the words. And no action is ever perfect, but we needed to do something. We funded the donation by pausing our Facebook marketing for the month of June. We'll feel the hit, but we felt it was necessary so we weren't just another company posting a statement but doing nothing. We felt that a charity with a 90.96, 4/4-star rating on Charity Navigator was an appropriate choice. 

We're happy to encourage people to donate to any charity that they feel is doing the most good, whether it's a national organization or something hyper-local. 

Personally, I'm a monthly donor to the ACLU and have been for quite a while. I also donated to the Minnesota Freedom Fund before things started heating up in my area. Now I'm looking for local organizations to give to so that I can make sure I'm supporting my own community.

I think it's important in times like these when things are moving quickly to listen to the people who are organizing when we can so that we can support them where they most need it, whether it's with bail funds, food and water donations, or even just helpful information for how to stay safe.

slowbird
slowbird SuperDork
6/1/20 4:40 p.m.

I fail to see how the SPLC is a "hate group" as multiple people have called it in this thread.

If you plan to provide proof of such, I think it would be enlightening one way or the other. And probably lead to this thread being locked. So maybe just keep such allegations to yourself.

Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter)
Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 4:44 p.m.
dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:
Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter) said:

GRM goes to a lot of trouble to keep politics off the board.  Then flounders the entire organization with a hate group named SPLC. 

  •    Ignorant
  •    Stupid
  •    Really believes in the evil promoted by SPLC and desires to support it

Which is it?

 

Don't be a jerk. Discussion is one thing but calling them "ignorant, stupid, or evil" is beyond the pale and not reasonable discussion. You're letting your reactionary show.

Which are you?

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 4:50 p.m.
slowbird said:

I fail to see how the SPLC is a "hate group" as multiple people have called it in this thread.

If you plan to provide proof of such, I think it would be enlightening one way or the other. And probably lead to this thread being locked. So maybe just keep such allegations to yourself.

And if one is going to spew so much vitriol to them, not only provide some data, also provide an alternative.  

datsunroadster
datsunroadster
6/1/20 4:59 p.m.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is a hate group.

I am Southern, they are not. I abide by the law, they do not. And none of them in the position of administration for their group is impoverished. Not by a long shot.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is accepted as gospel by the media and by any number of other people, and unfortunately, that now includes Grassroots Motorsports. Practically every mainstream conservative organization is listed on that website as a hate group, and the Southern Poverty Law Center has blood on its hands. They called the Family Research Council a hate group, and a guy walked into the lobby of the building where they are and started shooting because he had seen it on the Southern Poverty Law Center.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is as partisan leftist as anything.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is unfortunately supported and amplified by the media, and so is Occupy Wall Street, and so is Antifa. And in your misguided way, is now supported by GRM.

This makes me think about the time that Michael Jordan was asked why he didn't take a political stance when it was fairly well known that he was quite the supporter of the left and their causes. He said he did not want to run off 50% of the people who vote and buy Fruit of the Loom underwear. He was quite smart to remain neutral. Grassroots motorsports should be so smart and should have remained neutral.

Like the old funny car driver said, "Color Me Gone!"

 

 
Marjorie Suddard
Marjorie Suddard General Manager
6/1/20 5:10 p.m.

There comes a time when you cannot remain complicit. We chose this moment understanding what was on the line. It's more important than selling, even though we are no Fruit of the Loom and no doubt need it more--but if you haven't wagered something significant on your beliefs, you might as well not bother.

And of this makes me ignorant or evil, giggity. Gonna get myself a supervillian costume.

Margie

boulder_dweeb
boulder_dweeb Reader
6/1/20 5:10 p.m.

I jumped the gun on the dissent remark.....But hey, we got a lively discussion, NO?

Rog

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/1/20 5:10 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

Thank you, Matthew.

I understand why some may be confused–if we were asking for money, why could we then afford to donate money? For starters your Patreon support doesn't even make it to our bank account before it's mailed to the developers (along with all of the ad revenue from this site and a healthy dose of ad revenue from the print magazine).

In this case it was simple: It's important to back up words with action, even when it would be safer and cheaper to only say the words. And no action is ever perfect, but we needed to do something. We funded the donation by pausing our Facebook marketing for the month of June. We'll feel the hit, but we felt it was necessary so we weren't just another company posting a statement but doing nothing. We felt that a charity with a 90.96, 4/4-star rating on Charity Navigator was an appropriate choice. 

I support you. 

Remember that the loudest and the most extreme are not the majority. 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Reader
6/1/20 5:15 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

Thank you, Matthew.

I understand why some may be confused–if we were asking for money, why could we then afford to donate money? For starters your Patreon support doesn't even make it to our bank account before it's mailed to the developers (along with all of the ad revenue from this site and a healthy dose of ad revenue from the print magazine).

In this case it was simple: It's important to back up words with action, even when it would be safer and cheaper to only say the words. And no action is ever perfect, but we needed to do something. We funded the donation by pausing our Facebook marketing for the month of June. We'll feel the hit, but we felt it was necessary so we weren't just another company posting a statement but doing nothing. We felt that a charity with a 90.96, 4/4-star rating on Charity Navigator was an appropriate choice. 

It is not relevant if that money goes into your account or not. It goes to the developers, which takes an expense off of your back.  That frees up money for you to donate to another cause.  Like the others here, I have an issue with it, but again, it is your money.  Unfortunately it just means next time, I'll pass. I applaud the message and the thought, but the execution is lousy.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
6/1/20 5:18 p.m.

The SPLC has problems and probably wasn't the best choice, sure, but I think donating to them will still do more good than harm. This article, from someone who doesn't disagree with the basic aims of the SPLC, is good for those who don't know what the fuss is about to get up to speed.

That article includes a good alternative for the next donation: the SCHR. At least you can be sure that if anyone gets upset at that, they aren't getting bent out of shape over the SPLC's institutional problems.

TheRX7Project
TheRX7Project HalfDork
6/1/20 5:20 p.m.

I'm not leaving, but I am disappointed any time any business decides to take a side on anything political. When a business I support begins making donations (partially of my money) towards something politically motivated, it puts a tough decision in my hands. Hopefully this doesn't become a recurring theme at GRM.

I subscribe to GRM because I enjoy the content, and come to the forums to talk cars, and one of the things I truly enjoy most here is that politics is somewhat verboten unless it pertains directly to our hobby.

I fully support George Floyd's family and friends, and those who are taking a stand to end police brutality.

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
6/1/20 5:22 p.m.
Staff of Motorsport Marketing, Inc. said:

We stand against racism. We stand against violence. We stand for inclusion. We stand for a free press. We stand for speaking out, together.

This I agree with 100%.

I find it interesting that none of those who don't like the SPLC have not provided any links to their claims. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/1/20 5:25 p.m.

We don't believe human rights are political, and we did not see silence as a viable option here. 

 

ken914
ken914
6/1/20 5:37 p.m.

You've got to be kidding.  Major virtue signaling flex here.

The SPLC is a minority-controlled hate group.  Good job funding people who despise your existence.

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
6/1/20 5:38 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

We don't believe human rights are political, and we did not see silence as a viable option here. 

 

I see comments on post made by famous people. They'll support a cause or speak out against an injustice, and a number of their fans will say "stick to comedy/music/acting". As if they aren't allowed to use their influence to support what they believe in. As if because they have fans or subscribers they aren't allowed to speak their mind. 

Some E36 M3 if ya ask me.

slowbird
slowbird SuperDork
6/1/20 5:39 p.m.

In reply to datsunroadster :

"The Southern Poverty Law Center's classification of FRC as a hate group stems from FRC's more than decade-long insistence that gay people are more likely to molest children ... Research from non-ideological outfits is actually firm in concluding the opposite."[63]

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/1/20 5:42 p.m.

Has anyone here actually read their website? 

They list a Black Panther group in Denver as a black separatist hate group. 

Don49 (Forum Supporter)
Don49 (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/1/20 5:51 p.m.

GRM could have made that donation and never mentioned it. I applaud the willingness to speak out and do something to support your beliefs. There may have been a better choice, but it was better than doing nothing. We can all agree to disagree and still be supportive of each other.

datsunroadster
datsunroadster New Reader
6/1/20 5:52 p.m.

In reply to L5wolvesf :

Here's one:  From the CEO of the SPLC  a few years back.  Complete with links for fact checking:

Morris Dees began his career as a direct-mail marketer, selling “doormats, tractor seat cushions, and cookbooks.” His former business partner recalled that  “Morris and I … shared the overriding purpose of making a lot of money. We were not particular about how we did it; we just wanted to be independently rich.” Dees even (https://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc_20_3/tsc_20_3_vinson.shtml) “earned cash by doing some legal work for the Ku Klux Klan.” Dees was so successful at selling products through the mail that he eventually made it into the Direct Marketers Hall of Fame (https://www.dmnews.com/agencies/news/13102949/dma-names-4-tohall-of-fame). (Yes, postal spammers have a hall of fame, apparently.) Dees didn’t change his methods: “We just run our business like a business,” he said. “Whether you’re selling cakes or causes, it’s all the same.” Dees was as successful at selling causes as he had been at selling cakes. Fueled by Dees’ direct mail campaigns, the Southern Poverty Law Center brought in million after million. Last year it took in $136 million (https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm? bay=search.summary&orgid=4482), and it now sits upon an endowment of nearly half a billion dollars. Yet even after some within the organization thought it should stop raising money, and despite promises by Dees that it would do so, its fundraising pitches in the mail became ever more desperate and frantic. A 1995 pitch (https://harpers.org/blog/2010/03/hate-immigration-and-the-southern-poverty-lawcenter/), sent when the SPLC was sitting on more than $60 million in reserves, told potential donors that the “strain on our current operating budget is the greatest in our 25-year history.” All sorts of tricks were tried, and a former Dees associate reported that the organization once used about six different low-value stamps on envelopes, to give the appearance that it could barely afford to cobble together 35 cents of postage.

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
6/1/20 5:53 p.m.

In reply to Marjorie Suddard :

For the record, I do not think you are ignorant nor evil.  Having convictions and being willing to act on them is admirable. continue to be proud of that. 
 

 

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) UberDork
6/1/20 5:55 p.m.

Yeah, I think that the SPLC sucks as well, but that doesn't change how I feel about GRM (very good), and I respect where you're coming from regardless.

dculberson (Forum Supporter)
dculberson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 5:56 p.m.

GRM must be doing something right if they pissed off Dr Hess and Steve Jones and brought a bunch of single post sock puppets out of the woodwork.

Tony Sestito
Tony Sestito PowerDork
6/1/20 5:56 p.m.

We stand against racism. We stand against violence. We stand for inclusion. We stand for a free press. We stand for speaking out, together.

This right here says it all for me. Thank you GRM.

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
6/1/20 5:57 p.m.
L5wolvesf said:
Staff of Motorsport Marketing, Inc. said:

We stand against racism. We stand against violence. We stand for inclusion. We stand for a free press. We stand for speaking out, together.

This I agree with 100%.

I find it interesting that none of those who don't like the SPLC have not provided any links to their claims. 

We are not allowed to discuss politics.

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
6/1/20 5:58 p.m.

In reply to dculberson (Forum Supporter) :

Helpful and constructive. Glad to see that in these times of chaos and upheavals, some things remain the same. 

eastpark
eastpark Reader
6/1/20 5:59 p.m.

Well done, GRM, well done.

qdriver
qdriver New Reader
6/1/20 6:01 p.m.

I support your decision. I refuse to let another thing divide me to GRM.

folks, just say thank you for donating something.

stop writing stuff/anything here or other social media to divide us. Society.

 We have a lot of work ahead of us, to fix this and leave something for our children. 
We are seeing the end and our country will become the United States of Hate.

dculberson (Forum Supporter)
dculberson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 6:03 p.m.
T.J. said:

In reply to dculberson (Forum Supporter) :

Helpful and constructive. Glad to see that in these times of chaos and upheavals, some things remain the same. 

Yes it was definitely out of the blue when I've been called stupid ignorant and evil. 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/1/20 6:08 p.m.
datsunroadster said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

Here's one:  From the CEO of the SPLC  a few years back.  Complete with links for fact checking:

Morris Dees began his career as a direct-mail marketer, selling “doormats, tractor seat cushions, and cookbooks.” His former business partner recalled that  “Morris and I … shared the overriding purpose of making a lot of money. We were not particular about how we did it; we just wanted to be independently rich.” Dees even (https://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc_20_3/tsc_20_3_vinson.shtml) “earned cash by doing some legal work for the Ku Klux Klan.” Dees was so successful at selling products through the mail that he eventually made it into the Direct Marketers Hall of Fame (https://www.dmnews.com/agencies/news/13102949/dma-names-4-tohall-of-fame). (Yes, postal spammers have a hall of fame, apparently.) Dees didn’t change his methods: “We just run our business like a business,” he said. “Whether you’re selling cakes or causes, it’s all the same.” Dees was as successful at selling causes as he had been at selling cakes. Fueled by Dees’ direct mail campaigns, the Southern Poverty Law Center brought in million after million. Last year it took in $136 million (https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm? bay=search.summary&orgid=4482), and it now sits upon an endowment of nearly half a billion dollars. Yet even after some within the organization thought it should stop raising money, and despite promises by Dees that it would do so, its fundraising pitches in the mail became ever more desperate and frantic. A 1995 pitch (https://harpers.org/blog/2010/03/hate-immigration-and-the-southern-poverty-lawcenter/), sent when the SPLC was sitting on more than $60 million in reserves, told potential donors that the “strain on our current operating budget is the greatest in our 25-year history.” All sorts of tricks were tried, and a former Dees associate reported that the organization once used about six different low-value stamps on envelopes, to give the appearance that it could barely afford to cobble together 35 cents of postage.

I guess that's probably why they fired him. 

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/14/703526235/southern-poverty-law-center-fires-morris-dees-its-co-founder

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 6:12 p.m.

Thank you for taking a stand.  You're good folks and I'm proud to wear my GRM gear, etc.

We hate to see people leave, but honestly I don't think I'll miss many of the folks that are screaming about the place GRM chose to donate to. 

Some of those are the very reason why we don't discuss politics here.

Be good to each other and stay safe out there.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/1/20 6:17 p.m.

"datsunroadster" just registered and logged in here today to post dirt about the SPLC. 

Maybe we should change his name to "volgaroadster" laugh

 

 

ultraclyde (Forum Supporter)
ultraclyde (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
6/1/20 6:17 p.m.

I appreciate you guys making the statement and I stand with you. I appreciate you trying to put your money where your mouth is.  Thank you.

I find it a disheartening commentary on our society that good intentions and good will are so hard to effectively carry out. I don't know anything about the groups mentioned here. But it seems like any action those of us in the middle take to improve the world turnsninto stepping on a land mine.

Eventually we get beaten into "why bother?" and the demons win.

UrSubscriber17
UrSubscriber17
6/1/20 6:18 p.m.

Thanks to the Suddards and the entire GRM family for making your public statement about George Floyd. Our society is in conflict, and all of us need to speak out for the values that we were brought up to live by--remember the pledge of allegiance ends with "...and liberty and justice for all."

I'm disheartened but not shocked by some of the off-kilter responses in this forum. They're a huge minority, and I'm grateful for that. But the BS about the SPLC is just that...it's not the SPLC that's changed, it's our society that's moved in some dangerous ways. 

For some insights into why George Floyd, and all of the others that have suffered at the hands of law enforcement of our society, check out this 18 minutes by a man who has lived under South African Apartheid, Trevor Noah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4amCfVbA_c

wheels777
wheels777 SuperDork
6/1/20 6:24 p.m.

Agreed

CJ (He's Just an FS)
CJ (He's Just an FS) HalfDork
6/1/20 6:34 p.m.

In the face of what is happening, I am proud to be associated, in even a small way, with people who have seen wrong and have tried to do something about it. 

Thanks GRM.

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
6/1/20 6:36 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:
datsunroadster said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

I guess that's probably why they fired him. 

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/14/703526235/southern-poverty-law-center-fires-morris-dees-its-co-founder

Snowdoggie said:

"datsunroadster" just registered and logged in here today to post dirt about the SPLC. 

Thanks for posting those. He/it doesn't seem to be worth responding to.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/1/20 6:38 p.m.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/03/29/us/splc-leadership-crisis/index.html

from very left leaning CNN

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/2022301001

USA today

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-reckoning-of-morris-dees-and-the-southern-poverty-law-center?source=search_google_dsa_paid&gclid=CjwKCAjwztL2BRATEiwAvnALcjI-RH40GNTazH12dgvKdRNpYA-gj82oQNLB0cl8U7lfJG3g2Q-JzBoC-oUQAvD_BwE

New Yorker

And for the record, I said well intentioned and misguided.  I will stick to that.  

I'm not sure if I should expand on murder by the police and racism and how I find this country more racist everyday.  Not taking any political side, but there are clearly people labeling, calling and making everything racist in order to turn profits and gain votes.  I cannot support that, even indirectly.  

I feel as if my time serving this country, my grandfathers death serving this country and the lives of all that served are being spat upon and dishonored.  All the while I'm being told it's a "net good."  

No, giving to a law firm that says one thing, and does very different things, is not a net benefit to anyone.  SPLC is in fact fanning the flames of racism making the horrible things we see today possible.  Keep following in misguided belief with a good heart, and you will find yourself more confused as to why all this is happening and thinking you "must" do something else.  

They continue to fan the flames by claiming anyone that doesn't agree with their far left sentiments is a racist hate group.  

I'm really unhappy about this, and for the record I hate both the extreme left and extreme right and love this country and sll the people in the middle.  Stay towards the middle and don't let yourself be swayed by the pretty words and ideas of the extremes.  SPLC is very extreme.

And in case you are wondering why I say they are fanning the flames.  Remember Dees said they are just selling a product?  Well they sell racism and hate, take you pick.

What happened to George Floyd was a horrific murder caught on camera.  Donating to the SPLC does not help.  It just ensures that plenty of pallets of bricks and paymemts will be available to burn down our cities and kill those who are trying to protect their homes, businesses, familes and themselves.  The extreme left and right both want racial divide and violence which are not natural to the US or our values.  Donating to either cause just adds to their resources.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/1/20 6:39 p.m.

Good people live here 

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
6/1/20 6:40 p.m.

wow....  I honestly didn't expect something like this to be posted here, but I'm grateful for it.

Thank you to the staff for what you do, and thank you to the community for being so amazing.

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
6/1/20 6:40 p.m.
T.J. said:
L5wolvesf said:
Staff of Motorsport Marketing, Inc. said:

We stand against racism. We stand against violence. We stand for inclusion. We stand for a free press. We stand for speaking out, together.

This I agree with 100%.

I find it interesting that none of those who don't like the SPLC have not provided any links to their claims. 

We are not allowed to discuss politics.

Tom Suddard said:

We don't believe human rights are political, and we did not see silence as a viable option here. 

I too do not consider human rights to be political - they are fundamental.

 

 

 

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 6:40 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

We don't believe human rights are political, and we did not see silence as a viable option here. 

 

Thanks, Suddard family.

And one should note that none of the dissenting posts are being removed, or that I can tell, people are being banned.  But it is important to separate the basics of being human vs simple politics.  

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Reader
6/1/20 6:44 p.m.
dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:

GRM must be doing something right if they pissed off Dr Hess and Steve Jones and brought a bunch of single post sock puppets out of the woodwork.

I'm not angry at all, I just won't donate next time. If you want "donations" to keep the lights on, no problem. To turn around and use it to donate to another cause, that's pretty lousy. If they donated to planned parenthood, that's cool? NRA? For them to preach no politics, then donate to a political group and announce it here, is hypocrisy at its finest.
 

Some of us donate without the need to tell everyone about it. 

pimpm3 (Forum Supporter)
pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/1/20 6:46 p.m.

I don't agree with the choice of the charity, but it GRM's money and they can spend it how they choose.

I disagree that police officers are racist.  I am not racist and neither are any of the officers I work with every day.  Don't judge thousands of people who selflessly serve their communities based on the actions of a few idiots.

 Lumping all people together based on one aspect of their lives is both ignorant and dangerous.  Isn't saying police officers are racist kind of the same thing as making disparaging remarks or having negative opinions about a person based on something as ridiculous as the color of their skin. 

I do come here to talk about cars and I will continue to do so.  I am however a little disappointed with the political slant here lately.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/1/20 6:48 p.m.
dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:

GRM must be doing something right if they pissed off Dr Hess and Steve Jones and brought a bunch of single post sock puppets out of the woodwork.

This is my thinking as well.   Sounds like they all need to pay the troll toll to get into ........

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Reader
6/1/20 6:49 p.m.
yupididit said:
Tom Suddard said:

We don't believe human rights are political, and we did not see silence as a viable option here. 

 

I see comments on post made by famous people. They'll support a cause or speak out against an injustice, and a number of their fans will say "stick to comedy/music/acting". As if they aren't allowed to use their influence to support what they believe in. As if because they have fans or subscribers they aren't allowed to speak their mind. 

Some E36 M3 if ya ask me.

They can speak their mind and support what they believe in, no problem. People can then choose to support them or not. I think what many here have an issue with is crying about going under, then using that money to support a controversial group. Would you be ok if they donated to the FOP and posted that?

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) UltimaDork
6/1/20 6:49 p.m.

When I signed up to serve I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.  One part of that Constitution is Freedom of Speech.  That applies to those I agree with and disagree with.  

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/1/20 6:49 p.m.
L5wolvesf said:
Snowdoggie said:
datsunroadster said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

I guess that's probably why they fired him. 

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/14/703526235/southern-poverty-law-center-fires-morris-dees-its-co-founder

Snowdoggie said:

"datsunroadster" just registered and logged in here today to post dirt about the SPLC. 

Thanks for posting those. He/it doesn't seem to be worth responding to.

Quite honestly, I am sick and tired of seeing these guys NOT getting responded to here. They get angry and call names and everybody else just backs away from them. 

I think this is a GOOD development for this board. 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 6:50 p.m.

Perfect. On point. No need for discussion in this thread. 

Type Q
Type Q SuperDork
6/1/20 6:50 p.m.

Thank you to the Suddards and the rest of GRM. 

You have a supporter and customer for life.

 

 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/1/20 6:52 p.m.
Type Q said:

Thank you to the Suddards and the rest of GRM. 

You have a supporter and customer for life.

 

 

I will be extending my subscription. 

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
6/1/20 6:53 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
yupididit said:
Tom Suddard said:

We don't believe human rights are political, and we did not see silence as a viable option here. 

 

I see comments on post made by famous people. They'll support a cause or speak out against an injustice, and a number of their fans will say "stick to comedy/music/acting". As if they aren't allowed to use their influence to support what they believe in. As if because they have fans or subscribers they aren't allowed to speak their mind. 

Some E36 M3 if ya ask me.

They can speak their mind and support what they believe in, no problem. People can then choose to support them or not. I think what many here have an issue with is crying about going under, then using that money to support a controversial group. Would you be ok if they donated to the FOP and posted that?

 

I operate in a world of acronyms but I do not know what FOP is. 

Google says Fraternal Order of Police, if that's what you meant then what does that have to do with me. I have nothing against the police sad

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
6/1/20 6:53 p.m.
Stampie (FS) said:

When I signed up to serve I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.  One part of that Constitution is Freedom of Speech.  That applies to those I agree with and disagree with.  

First off thank you for your service.  Secondly I agree. I may not agree with the political views of the staff/owners but I will go down swinging for their right to express it (as long as it doesn't involve ridgelines). I don't necessarily agree but it's their choice. I do like that they are trying to keep the focus in the man and not the actions we see today 

conesare2seconds
conesare2seconds Dork
6/1/20 6:55 p.m.

The unfortunate reality of the new political age is that all politics is personal and everything personal is political.  

The organization in question is deeply involved in politics and unfortunately a donation to nearly any organization whatever the stripe risks alienating a friend or supporter. 

I deeply oppose the theory that politics is the moral equivalent of war and think we are too quick to pull the trigger on economic punishment of those we disagree with, so I’m sticking around for now and will see what the future holds but offer a friendly, respectful suggestion:  maybe just saying “we have made a donation in support of an organization we think can help effect the changes we hope to see following this tragic event” would be sufficient.  

Hoping we can continue to enjoy GRM as a politics-free oasis of car folks  

 

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 6:57 p.m.

In reply to pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) :

Who is lumping all police into the racist bin?  There have been literally thousands of police that have been openly supporing the rights of people protesting, have been openly supporting the protest, and some very much speaking out against the violence.

When did accuse 4 police racists = all of them?

Makes no sense.

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
6/1/20 7:01 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:
L5wolvesf said:
Snowdoggie said:
datsunroadster said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

I guess that's probably why they fired him. 

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/14/703526235/southern-poverty-law-center-fires-morris-dees-its-co-founder

Snowdoggie said:

"datsunroadster" just registered and logged in here today to post dirt about the SPLC. 

Thanks for posting those. He/it doesn't seem to be worth responding to.

Quite honestly, I am sick and tired of seeing these guys NOT getting responded to here. They get angry and call names and everybody else just backs away from them. 

I think this is a GOOD development for this board. 

IMO, responding to someone who comes on a (generally) non-"political" site to spew racist and other hate based points is not going to hear anything that is said.  Their views and anger tend to be very deeply ingrained - nothing I say will change that. Been there etc. If you believe responding is worth the effort then I truly applaud you for that.

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Reader
6/1/20 7:01 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

Yes, Fraternal Order of Police. If they donated to support the police at this moment, and posted here, that's not political?

 

pimpm3 (Forum Supporter)
pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/1/20 7:02 p.m.
Stampie (FS) said:

When I signed up to serve I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.  One part of that Constitution is Freedom of Speech.  That applies to those I agree with and disagree with.  

Well put Stampie.  Thank you for your service 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
6/1/20 7:03 p.m.
Stampie (FS) said:

When I signed up to serve I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.  One part of that Constitution is Freedom of Speech.  That applies to those I agree with and disagree with.  

Well said Stampie. Oh by the way I too took that oath. 

Type Q
Type Q SuperDork
6/1/20 7:03 p.m.

I posted this on the VW racism thread yesterday. I urge everyone to think about your language and assumptions.

 

If you grew up in the United States of America the chances are, like me, you are not good at talking about racism, prejudice and bias. Lets acknowledge that collectively we are not good at this and we are going to make some mistakes.

 

 

Language is important, there are a lot of words and phrases with strong connotations for others we may not be aware of. I am going to offer up a few definitions and distinctions of my own.

 

Race – A grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into a category generally viewed as distinct by a society.

 

Racism – Active hated, devaluing, and/or dehumanizing of a group of people for being of a particular race.

 

Racist – hating, devaluing, and/or dehumanizing something or someone because its associated with a particular racial group.

 

Bias – disproportionately weighted expectations or attitudes, positive or negative, you have about people or things based on beliefs and sometimes life experiences.

 

Prejudice - a negative opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without direct knowledge, thought, or reason.

 

We all have prejudges and biases. It is part of how minds work. Let me throw a few words hopefully non-political words up and observe your reaction to them.

 

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I could continue the list, but I am guessing we all have an opinion or feeling about something on the the list that we don't have direct experience with. (Full discloser, I have never driven an Aztec, but don't want one for some irrational reason).  We are often not conscious of our prejudices/biases and get really defensive when they are pointed out. It doesn’t make me or you a bad person by itself. I try to be aware of my biases, and counter act them when I realize they are not working for me or harming someone.

 

There is no room in this community for active racism. (Thank You Moderators). Strong biases and racist beliefs are definitely here because this forum because the majority of the members are male and North American. We are not actively racist, but we still have been taught a lot of wrong-headed, wrong-hearted, bullE36 M3 that harms us, our loved ones and everything we say we care about. I am trying everyday to learn and do better. I invite everyone here to help me and to do the same for yourself.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
6/1/20 7:04 p.m.

There are good cops and bad.  

 

There are good people protesting and bad.

 

Core thing I find is, they have a right to be PISSED. 

 

Don't know if you guys have caught up to tonight's presidential speech. I have a feeling that whatever side of the asile you are on you can agree. I weep for our country tonight.

pimpm3 (Forum Supporter)
pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/1/20 7:08 p.m.
Type Q said:

I posted this on the VW racism thread yesterday. I urge everyone to think about your language and assumptions.

 

If you grew up in the United States of America the chances are, like me, you are not good at talking about racism, prejudice and bias. Lets acknowledge that collectively we are not good at this and we are going to make some mistakes.

 

 

Language is important, there are a lot of words and phrases with strong connotations for others we may not be aware of. I am going to offer up a few definitions and distinctions of my own.

 

Race – A grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into a category generally viewed as distinct by a society.

 

Racism – Active hated, devaluing, and/or dehumanizing of a group of people for being of a particular race.

 

Racist – hating, devaluing, and/or dehumanizing something or someone because its associated with a particular racial group.

 

Bias – disproportionately weighted expectations or attitudes, positive or negative, you have about people or things based on beliefs and sometimes life experiences.

 

Prejudice - a negative opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without direct knowledge, thought, or reason.

 

We all have prejudges and biases. It is part of how minds work. Let me throw a few words hopefully non-political words up and observe your reaction to them.

 

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I could continue the list, but I am guessing we all have an opinion or feeling about something on the the list that we don't have direct experience with. (Full discloser, I have never driven an Aztec, but don't want one for some irrational reason).  We are often not conscious of our prejudices/biases and get really defensive when they are pointed out. It doesn’t make me or you a bad person by itself. I try to be aware of my biases, and counter act them when I realize they are not working for me or harming someone.

 

There is no room in this community for active racism. (Thank You Moderators). Strong biases and racist beliefs are definitely here because this forum because the majority of the members are male and North American. We are not actively racist, but we still have been taught a lot of wrong-headed, wrong-hearted, bullE36 M3 that harms us, our loved ones and everything we say we care about. I am trying everyday to learn and do better. I invite everyone here to help me and to do the same for yourself.

Well put

Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter)
Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/1/20 7:09 p.m.
dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:
T.J. said:

In reply to dculberson (Forum Supporter) :

Helpful and constructive. Glad to see that in these times of chaos and upheavals, some things remain the same. 

Yes it was definitely out of the blue when I've been called stupid ignorant and evil. 

Now, DC, I never called you stupid, ignorant and evil.  It was a "Pick One" thing, not an "All of the Above" thing.  I never really considered you stupid.  Ignorant, perhaps, influenced by evil, but not stupid.  However, if your reading comprehension is that bad, and BTW, you never answered my question, well, OK.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
6/1/20 7:11 p.m.
Type Q said:

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I kind of drew a blank at Figure Stating  

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/1/20 7:17 p.m.

I feel the need to set the record straight on one thing:

Yes, a few months ago, going into the pandemic, we posted that the future was extremely uncertain and your support mattered more than ever. We said in this post:

Put simply, we face an existential threat unless you #SupportMotorsport and support us, too. We’d like to still be a part of the motorsports world when it emerges from this crisis in a few months, but we’re not going to be unless you support us any way you can. 

And you all supported us more than ever. You directly kept us going, and it did and still does mean the world to us. And since that post, well, the world opened back up again (whether or not it should have is a discussion for another thread). Because of your support, we were as strong as ever when it opened. Advertising resumed. Financially-speaking, things got better. You'll also notice that we didn't make a follow-up post, ask for more money, or even mention Patreon again aside from the links at the bottom of articles for those who like what they're reading. You saved us, and now we're here. Thank you. 

Cuda
Cuda Reader
6/1/20 7:19 p.m.

Subscribed and ordered a bit of merch. Trying to vote with my wallet.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
6/1/20 7:22 p.m.

To balance some of the earlier posts from a couple of (forum supporter)s, I'll be throwing some money you're way soon.

dailyraces
dailyraces
6/1/20 7:23 p.m.

After reading the few comments of dissent, I'm reminded of a quote by Anais Ninn - "We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are". 

CJ (He's Just an FS)
CJ (He's Just an FS) HalfDork
6/1/20 7:29 p.m.

Regarding the comments on police, I have to say this.  My dad was in law enforcement and I was around a lot of cops growing up.  City cops, county cops, state cops - all had one thing in common.  They wanted to do good in their community.  They wanted to make things better.

Let me give you an example.  My step-daughter's home had a collapsed sewer line that happened as her family was heading out the door on vacation.  Told her to keep going, I would take care of it.  Started digging to replace the line from the house to the septic tank.  A mutual friend (who happened to be a cop) got wind (probably literally) of what I was doing and offered to help.  No big deal, right?  Except this guy got the dry heaves just smelling sewer gas.  So he's gamely out there helping with half an inch of Vicks on his upper lip so he doesn't puke.

There are lots of genuinely good people out there, and a lot of them are cops.

Stealthtercel
Stealthtercel Dork
6/1/20 7:45 p.m.

Reading all this from a foreign country (Canada) is an interesting experience.  I think what we have here is another case of the Perfect being the enemy of the Good.  Could GRM have made a donation that would have satisfied more people?  Hard to say, impossible to prove, and irrelevant anyway, because it's their budget to spend.  Could they have made a donation that satisfied everybody?  Um, no.  As a general principle, No, and as regards this particular group of well-meaning, opinionated, articulate crazies, Hell no.  (Remember how many of us (a) praised and (b) loathed the various styles of company T-shirts?  Because I bet Tom does.)

GRM decided this wasn't a time to stay silent.  I support that.

Dave M (Forum Supporter)
Dave M (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
6/1/20 7:46 p.m.

Wow! I would never have expected the publishers of a car mag to make a donation to a liberal charity and *then blog about it*.  That is ballsy! I would guess your readership skews 70/30 conservative/liberal (although you probably know that already from the zip codes of your subscribers, since we are all so politically sorted).

I'll continue to support you regardless of what charities you give to.  The whole "take my ball and go home" crowd are such wusses.  Really, you've never had a friend or co-worker who has different politics than you? You've never shown up to a track day and started talking with the young kid in the flat-brimmed hat driving the FR-S?

We're here because we love going fast in cars, or on bikes, or wrenching, or something.  Most everyone I've met on here is great.  Let's keep it that way!

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) UberDork
6/1/20 8:14 p.m.

One thing that I'd like to add is a bit of context. If you listen to a lot of people, America is a seething cauldron of racism. While we've still got a long ways to go, in fact by many measurements things are much better than they were when I was born (The 1960s).  Take this chart for instance:

   

A young black man in 1968 was five times as likely to be killed by a LEO than in 2010. 

Or this one:

An African American is half as likely to be in poverty during the same period.

Is this good enough? No. But I dislike those on both sides of the spectrum who like to make it sound like things are worse than ever  and we're on the brink of a race war. Doesn't have to be. 

11GTCS
11GTCS Reader
6/1/20 8:19 p.m.

This does nothing but reinforce the reasons why I chose to become a member of this forum and support your business.   Thank you.

chada75
chada75 Reader
6/1/20 8:50 p.m.

Personally, As long as GRM don't donate money to an Anti-Semitic Group, I could care less who they give to. Also, I haven't give money to a charity in 20 years, but do give the very few causes I believe in Items and do shop at said places.

buzzboy
buzzboy Dork
6/1/20 8:59 p.m.

I really like playing with cars and talking about it online.

Byrneon27
Byrneon27 Reader
6/1/20 9:32 p.m.

There's a reason the only magazine I subscribe to is GRM, the only forum I visit is this one, and the only events I won't miss are organized by these PEOPLE. I love that they made a choice a humanitarian choice and did so publicly. 

You guys appear to try very hard to do the right thing I'm proud that I'm able to support the magazine. 

 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/1/20 9:42 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
Type Q said:

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I kind of drew a blank at Figure Stating  

Another name for accounting?

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
6/1/20 9:47 p.m.

Truly was hoping the donation to SPLC remark was a joke.  Apparently not, and the only joke here is the SPLC.  Shameful.

https://news.yahoo.com/southern-poverty-law-center-state-180649483.html

itsarebuild
itsarebuild Dork
6/1/20 9:49 p.m.

Thanks GRM for your statement. 

P3PPY
P3PPY HalfDork
6/1/20 9:53 p.m.
L5wolvesf said:
T.J. said:
L5wolvesf said:
Staff of Motorsport Marketing, Inc. said:

We stand against racism. We stand against violence. We stand for inclusion. We stand for a free press. We stand for speaking out, together.

This I agree with 100%.

I find it interesting that none of those who don't like the SPLC have not provided any links to their claims. 

We are not allowed to discuss politics.

Tom Suddard said:

We don't believe human rights are political, and we did not see silence as a viable option here. 

I too do not consider human rights to be political - they are fundamental.

 

 

 

That’s a bit of a stretch, Tom, and reveals quite a blind spot, if indeed you believe that line hook line and sinker. The same ideals that inform one’s politics inform one’s belief of what is “basic human right.” 

I am a new subscriber as of the recent push and have intended to do the $3/mo thing too, and I completely get that the SPLC seems like a safe choice to donate to since Amazon and Microsoft and others import their lists for charity screening, but as someone who has beliefs and ideologies that would make me a hate monger to them, I surely don’t appreciate the donation. 

Coz
Coz None
6/1/20 10:01 p.m.

Your statement doesn't actually say anything directly about George Floyd.  I guess it's implied.  As such I agree that what happened to Mr. Floyd is horrific.

Almost everyone assumes it was racial.  And there is pretty good chance it was.  Or it could have been an bad cop that would have done that to anyone.  In any case, he should not have been a police officer.

Of all the organizations you could have donated to, the SPLC is probably the worst.  It would have been better to donate to an organization such as the King Center.

 

 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/1/20 10:05 p.m.
1988RedT2 said:

Truly was hoping the donation to SPLC remark was a joke.  Apparently not, and the only joke here is the SPLC.  Shameful.

https://news.yahoo.com/southern-poverty-law-center-state-180649483.html

The National Review is VERY right wing and this article is strong on opinion and light on facts. There are much more detailed accounts if you really want to know how sordid and immoral Morris Dees is. Even the liberal New York Times tore him a new one. But he doesn't run the place anymore.

spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/1/20 10:23 p.m.

short of a hate group. I don't care who the Suddards give money to. 

I support the magazine and understood early on in my forum days that it's their game and we are all but guests here. 

the Suddards put their hand out asking for any money we could give and I was unemployed, I bought ad space, 2 t-shirts and got a E36 M3load of stickers

I don't care if the group they gave money to, in good faith, is imperfect. 

thanks for being a beacon and a megaphone amplifying the message and trying to improve the world around us GRM. 

Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA SuperDork
6/1/20 10:31 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:

I'm not angry at all, I just won't donate next time. If you want "donations" to keep the lights on, no problem. To turn around and use it to donate to another cause, that's pretty lousy. If they donated to planned parenthood, that's cool? NRA? For them to preach no politics, then donate to a political group and announce it here, is hypocrisy at its finest.
 

Some of us donate without the need to tell everyone about it. 

GRM decided to reapportion part of their marketing budget to this cause.  In this situation, everyone hurts.  For some it's physical pain. For others, it's emotional pain or monetary pain.  They made a choice to stick up for their fellow man.  I'm sorry you don't like their choice.

As for your donation, please go ahead and tell me how much it was.  I'll double it.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/1/20 10:33 p.m.

It's been a few hours since I checked, but the total loss we've seen in monthly pledges was $13. We can survive that. 

spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/1/20 10:50 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

It's been a few hours since I checked, but the total loss we've seen in monthly pledges was $13. We can survive that. 

berkeleyin savage. 

 

RevRico
RevRico PowerDork
6/1/20 10:53 p.m.

I hope there's a write up in the next issue about the donation and it's recipients.

I'm just surprised you couldn't find a local survivors of police brutality group to donate to instead of a national level group known for their abhorrent behavior and questionable financial distribution practices. 

To be fair, law says charities only have to give 1% of donations to the cause they claim to support, just might have gone over better finding one that gives closer to 100% instead of closer to 1%. 

P3PPY
P3PPY HalfDork
6/1/20 11:00 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

It's been a few hours since I checked, but the total loss we've seen in monthly pledges was $13. We can survive that. 

Tom - seriously man, that’s uncalled for and dramatically immature. People hold different beliefs than you and they hold them to such a strong degree that they feel like a site that they’ve invested tons of time and thought into has become hostile to them and so they leave. And you’re going to play the “sorry not sorry we won’t miss you” game?? You WANT your site to be full of only people who agree with you and/or disagree but not strongly?? 

Dude. This post IS political in nature; the org you donated to, whether you knew it at the time or not, has political leanings and some find it really offensive (again, ideology is intertwined with politics and therefore one’s belief about what is or isn’t a human right— think abortion, homosexual rights, the right to guns to defend self, etc.). There’s a reason this board has a no politics rule. And you felt like it was okay to violate it, and that’s your prerogative. But to rub it in people’s faces when they’re bothered? Immature and offensive. Please reconsider your tone. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/1/20 11:06 p.m.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but was asked a direct question, and clarified that Jerry shouldn't feel required to make up for the loss. 

Daylan C (Forum Supporter)
Daylan C (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
6/1/20 11:09 p.m.

In reply to P3PPY :

The no politics rule was not violated with this post. This isn't and shouldn't be a political issue. The issue is that a large number of our neighbors, coworkers, and friends don't feel safe in their country. I don't see how this is political at all. 

And for the record, LGBT rights and abortion shouldn't be political either. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/1/20 11:10 p.m.

In reply to RevRico :

Completely understand the sentiment. We were limited to national organizations for this. And just to correct the record, 67.8% of the SPLC's funds go to program expenses. 

spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/1/20 11:11 p.m.

In reply to P3PPY :

I've been getting more and more salty as this night goes on... 

they never violated their own rule. they didn't discuss politics... 

they openly posted on their media platform that they support the Black lives matter movement and openly stated they made a charitable donation and who they made it to, which I applaud their transparency. 

if that was enough to make people turn away... 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Reader
6/1/20 11:15 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

I wasn't going to bring it up, but was asked a direct question, and clarified that Jerry shouldn't feel required to make up for the loss. 

What loss? Mine was lump sum, not per month, so there is no loss from me. Glad you took my money then told me to go berkeley myself, and suggesting  people are racist because they don't think you should donate to a hate group is pretty E36 M3ty. 

spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/1/20 11:18 p.m.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

the hole you keep digging by not choosing to JUST STOP POSTING is becoming cringeworthy.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
6/1/20 11:19 p.m.

Man,  what a E36 M3 show.  Might as well forget the no politics thing.  Well,  it was nice while it lasted.

Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA SuperDork
6/1/20 11:22 p.m.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

If you won't say how much you contributed, then I will find out from Tom.  Then I will double your donation and send you a check for the amount you paid.  Then you can feel good about yourself.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/1/20 11:23 p.m.

We talked to the mods before posting this, and decided to moderate with a very light hand for a bit to give room for discussion. You'll also notice that no comments have been deleted or users banned for attacking us, our actions, or our beliefs. This is our kitchen table, you're welcome at it, and we welcome the tough discussions that will keep this online family strong.

That said, it's bed time for me. I'll continue this discussion in the morning.

Thanks, 

Tom. 

sergio
sergio Reader
6/1/20 11:26 p.m.

Man this thread is going downhill faster than a roller coaster. 

Maniac0301
Maniac0301 Reader
6/1/20 11:57 p.m.

The fact that we knew exactly what some folks viewpoint on this would be before they even opened their pie holes lets us know they are fine with politics on this board but only for them.   I love that their biggest complaint is about the ex CEO of the SPLC and when it was pointed out he was fired for the reason they had issues with him they continued to say that's why they hate the SPLC.   

Our world of giant business lobbying means that if you have a group that is looking to work on the national level and actually accomplish anything you have to play this E36 M3ty lobbying game.   If you don't you just don't get anything done.   So yeah there are other charities to give to, many of them great people doing local and small regional work.    Many of them may have better policies than SPLC but few have the power to push towards the real change that is required.   I'm fine with GRM working with a national level charity especially since we come from all over even if I don't like the entirety of that groups work they are one of the few big enough to have a chance to get E36 M3 done.

nimblemotorsports
nimblemotorsports HalfDork
6/2/20 12:10 a.m.

Mixing of business and politics and religion is one of the core problems we face as a country.   

Donations, Charity, etc, should be personal, not an 'expense' of a business.  

Sports is where we go to get away from politics and religion, or we used to, now even that can't be left alone.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 12:20 a.m.

Wow, I missed all of this today. 

Thanks, Suddards. I'm proud and honored to know you. 

Ironic reason that I missed this discussion. I had some SCCA Nationals stickers to remove from my miata. While this was going on, I was replacing them with my GRM dork and SCCA Unite stickers.

I'm going to be proudly showing my support at Sebring on Sunday.

Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA SuperDork
6/2/20 12:33 a.m.
nimblemotorsports said:

Donations, Charity, etc, should be personal, not an 'expense' of a business.  

 

Businesses give billions to charities every year.  Like those donations, this one is tax deductible.

RichardSIA
RichardSIA Reader
6/2/20 12:55 a.m.

When I very first signed up here it was made clear that this was an apolitical site.

Now a donation to the SPLC shake-down artist?

Not a good move.

Probably should not say any more, but I know a few folk the SPLC has put on their "List" and they are some of the best folk anyone could know.

RALLYRS
RALLYRS New Reader
6/2/20 1:22 a.m.

I am a newb here-so doubt anyone will care about my opinion-but you gave $$ to SPLC?  Really?  Not a joke?

 

SPLC? The same organization that support the Facist(despite their very ironic name)hard core leftist head bashers known as Antifa?

 

SPLC on Antifa: "Antifa, short for anti-fascist, is a broad, community-based movement composed of individuals organizing against racial and economic injustice. Those who identify with the label represent a large spectrum of the political left".

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/06/01/designating-antifa-domestic-terrorist-organization-dangerous-threatens-civil-liberties

Right-they are just nice people organizing to help create equality for all-unless you are a race ,class,or color that they don't like.

Then-how does that bike lock feel bouncing off your skull? I'm thinking not good! What's next? Antifa donations?

These are NOT good people. Seriously. Someone at Grassroots needs to do just a LITTLE research. Pretty appalling lack of judgement. If there was another org that designated hate groups-for sure SPLC would be on it.

Back in the day I used to buy Grassroots magazines and I just "refound"this website. And I was really happy to mostly lurk here. Posted a little. Might post a bit more.

I will continue to read here for free but I think I will now pass on any $$ of any sort towards Grassroots if they are going towards left wing(or right wing for that matter) hate groups such as this. Doesn't matter if left or right-hate is hate.

I really urge you to do more research on this group.They are anti American, and pick and chose to designate organizations as hate groups(or importantly NOT to designate some organizations as hate groups) based on their agenda more than anything.

While they do get some of them right,that doesn't change this fact. Epic Fail Grassroots. Just sad.

 

 

 

 

bigben
bigben Reader
6/2/20 1:26 a.m.

I'm not really sure how to express my thoughts but here it goes. I'm glad GRM is taking a stand for respect and fair treatment. I applaud their willingness to put their money where their mouth is. Do I agree with their choice of organization to donate too? No. But I'm not going to ridicule them and make disparaging remarks. Such behaviors are at the root of the problems we are seeing in our country.  We can disagree without being disagreeable. We can have different moral values without hating others who do not share our ideals. 

Now here is my vent. I'm tired of the media fanning the fires of hatred and discord, every negative interaction that occurs between individuals of different races is automatically assumed to be out of racism. Is it not possible that some people are just selfish jerks and hot heads who don't care who they hurt. I believe there is more good in this country than the media tells us there is. Everytime I take a look at the news the underlying message I see is "Hey America you suck.  You`re all a bunch of racists, your stupid, the rest of the world has better education,  the rest of the world has handled COVID better, they have a better standard of living, they are more inclusive, they are skinnier, happier, and healthier than you. " and on and on. 

I believe we are better and can be better than these messages that divide and weaken our nation.  Now is the time to stand up and be better, do better, and treat each other better than we would treat ourselves. Get rid of the labels that divide us. Those labels don't determine our value as a human beings.  Stop putting others and ourselves down. And last of all stop trying to hang each other on the words we may have said "wrong" or expressed differently than you would have. You don't have to agree someone to love them and just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you hate them.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

nimblemotorsports
nimblemotorsports HalfDork
6/2/20 1:39 a.m.
Jerry From LA said:
nimblemotorsports said:

Donations, Charity, etc, should be personal, not an 'expense' of a business.  

 

Businesses give billions to charities every year.  Like those donations, this one is tax deductible.

Yes and that is the problem.   Here is a good discussion that just touches on one part of it.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-2TEwdRnX0

slowbird
slowbird SuperDork
6/2/20 1:43 a.m.

In reply to RALLYRS :

I have no idea where to start with this. "Antifa" is not the name of an official, organized group. It's literally just a term that means "anti-fascist". Furthermore, your claims make it sound like armed thugs wearing all black are going around beating up innocent old white ladies. That's not at all what antifa is. It's people standing up to white supremacist wackos.

Also, white supremacists have been known to impersonate antifa to stir up conflict.

RALLYRS
RALLYRS New Reader
6/2/20 2:44 a.m.
slowbird said:

In reply to RALLYRS :

I have no idea where to start with this. "Antifa" is not the name of an official, organized group. It's literally just a term that means "anti-fascist". Furthermore, your claims make it sound like armed thugs wearing all black are going around beating up innocent old white ladies. That's not at all what antifa is. It's people standing up to white supremacist wackos.

Also, white supremacists have been known to impersonate antifa to stir up conflict.

So Antifa is just "people standing up to white supremacist wackos, are they?

Tell that to Journalist Andy Ngo. Some of your nice "Anti Facist"(yeah right!)buddies put him in the hospital for the crime of being a conservative and filming them with a go pro. And he is obviously not even White.

Watch the video:

https://youtu.be/fLgKN1ij8eM

Yeah that's some fine "standing up to white supremacist wackos" they are doing right there!

There are countless videos and news stories of these scumbags effing people up physically if they disagree with their leftist,anti American agenda. 

Have you been living under a rock? I could post stuff for literally hours.

If Tucker is too right wing a source- here are 2 from the hard left.

 Vox and Rolling Stone will NEVER be accused of right wing propaganda:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/8/12/17681986/antifa-leftist-violence-clashes-protests-charlottesville-dc-unite-the-right

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/antifa-on-trial-how-a-college-professor-joined-the-lefts-radical-ranks-630213/

Sure-I'm sure there are a few passive ones who don't throw bottles, or pepper spray people ,or try to bash in their skull with objects from their backpack for disagreeing with their communist agenda, but clearly some if not many of them do. Are you blind?

How are they any better than KKK or other scumbag white supremacists?    F#*K those a holes! And the White supremacist aholes too!  People on either political side who go to protests to assault people are cockroaches,and hopefully get what they deserve,either from the other side,or the police.

And you are going to defend these nutjobs? That tells me quite a bit about you.

Seriously. Try again. 

slowbird
slowbird SuperDork
6/2/20 3:35 a.m.

In reply to RALLYRS :

Andy Ngo is a heavily biased "buddy" to violent right-wing groups that attacked protesters in Portland.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-ngo-right-wing-troll-antifa-877914/

White supremacists love Tucker Carlson too.

And that's it. I'm done with this thread. Fox News is not your friend and they frequently aren't truthful.

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
6/2/20 4:28 a.m.

Just leaving this here on my way out so people can know

thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter)
thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 4:33 a.m.

I don't remember when I've seen so many "brand new accounts" in one thread. Pretty impressive. I'm sure each one is a new person to the forum too...

Dave M (Forum Supporter)
Dave M (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
6/2/20 5:59 a.m.

In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :

This is all really amazing. I'm still in awe at the guts of GRM to be open and transparent, damn the torpedoes. If you can't respect that..... Come on.

slantvaliant (Forum Supporter)
slantvaliant (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 6:00 a.m.

If silence is consent, then I have to say this.

I am disappointed in the decision to donate to SPLC.  

"We stand against racism. We stand against violence. We stand for inclusion. We stand for a free press. We stand for speaking out, together."  In my opinion, SPLC does not consistently support those stands and often works against them.

It's not a dealbreaker:  I love this forum and have no plans to stop my frequent visits and occasional posts.  We're still friends.

Thank you.  

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 6:23 a.m.

So I leave last night asking for the SLPC bashers for an alternative place to donate money.

No suggestions.  

For all of the bashing and vitriol agains them, one would expect that you would have a place to do *something* to stop this endemic violence and racism.  But instead all people can do is bash the SLPC.

Please, if you are going to bash GRM for giving to them, at least provide an alternative that you think is really better at ending racism.  

I am quite open to your suggestions.  What other organization is out there fighting this injustice?  If there is nobody else, then the SLPC is it.

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
6/2/20 6:38 a.m.
Tom Suddard said:

We talked to the mods before posting this, and decided to moderate with a very light hand for a bit to give room for discussion.

Many of you over the last few years gotten emails from me with the "I will always defend your right to curse, but will also yell at you for cursing in church" as an analogy for how I moderate. I believe that a huge diversity of opinions and political thoughts are necessary and that we should think about them and discuss them and hold them dear and defend them. Just not here. Here we are united by our love of cars and the automotive hobby and that transcends a whole bunch of things that might otherwise tear us apart. 

I'm not sending out those emails now, and I won't for a while, but I want to. 

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia Dork
6/2/20 6:53 a.m.

As Rodney King said in 1992

"can't we all get along,"

All lives matter , 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 7:12 a.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

So I leave last night asking for the SLPC bashers for an alternative place to donate money.

No suggestions.  

For all of the bashing and vitriol agains them, one would expect that you would have a place to do *something* to stop this endemic violence and racism.  But instead all people can do is bash the SLPC.

Please, if you are going to bash GRM for giving to them, at least provide an alternative that you think is really better at ending racism.  

I am quite open to your suggestions.  What other organization is out there fighting this injustice?  If there is nobody else, then the SLPC is it.

Eric,

 

I think, as a reasonable person, you can easily see how this thread has devolved. In a large way it has devolved through snark on both sides. Someone did suggest an alternative charity, but I can't wade through the much to find it just now. I believe it was the King Foundation. I don't know much about them personally. You are better than to add to the snark though. As for my suggestion, I'd suggest fighting qualified immunity, which would go a long way to end police brutality: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/05/30/police-george-floyd-qualified-immunity-supreme-court-column/5283349002/

 

Everyone else:

I'll just restate what I said on pg 1, although I truly don't think everyone cares. We'd rather quote and requote the most absurd things back and forth instead of having a real discussion. I believe the SLPC to be roughly analogous to the Westboro Baptist Church (albeit not nearly as bad! Note I did not say 'equal') in that you can't even pronounce the name of the organization without lying (Not baptists, not a church. Not southern, not about poverty, not about the law). They are both hate mongers. I don't deal in hate. I don't have the time, nor do I think anyone would really parse through it all, to point out various wonderful organizations which SLPC has labeled a hate group, and the devastation that causes. There have been a few dozen comments about "taking the ball and going home" which doesn't really work as an analogy. As for me, the only person I can speak for, indeed I stopped supporting the forum monetarily. As someone else suggested, I can't hold every business I deal with to a perfect standard. I buy stuff from Amazon when I have to even though those guys are jerks. I am extremely careful who I donate to, though. I give away thousands, but carefully. Despite snark about how little my dollars really changed anything, it's symbolic and important to me.

 

What has happened here is obviously divisive, and I can only assume intentionally so. That makes me sad.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 7:30 a.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

So I just went to the whole thread so far, and found two things.

One suggestion to go read an article about alternatives.  And another asking why they didn't find something local.

I didn't see any single suggestions other than that.

Snarky or not, it's a real question to the people who are so upset with the donation.  You are the first one to suggest a specific location- The King Foundation.  And if you google search "The King Foundation"- that's not Martin Luther King, it's Carl King.  The King Center is from the Martin Luther King family.

It's fascinating to me that so many have done so much working and research on something they really think is the wrong thing, but have not spent time finding the right thing.  It really is interesting.  Find that snarky or not.

The suggestion I would have would be clearly political, given it's named after a politician- so I won't post that.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 7:34 a.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to tuna55 :

So I just went to the whole thread so far, and found two things.

One suggestion to go read an article about alternatives.  And another asking why they didn't find something local.

I didn't see any single suggestions other than that.

Snarky or not, it's a real question to the people who are so upset with the donation.  You are the first one to suggest a specific location- The King Foundation.  And if you google search "The King Foundation"- that's not Martin Luther King, it's Carl King.  The King Center is from the Martin Luther King family.

It's fascinating to me that so many have done so much working and research on something they really think is the wrong thing, but have not spent time finding the right thing.  It really is interesting.  Find that snarky or not.

The suggestion I would have would be clearly political, given it's named after a politician- so I won't post that.

No no, I wasn't making that suggestion. Gah, you're going to make me find it, aren't you? I have to read seven pages of drivel just to show you. OK, hang on.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 7:38 a.m.
Coz said:

Your statement doesn't actually say anything directly about George Floyd.  I guess it's implied.  As such I agree that what happened to Mr. Floyd is horrific.

Almost everyone assumes it was racial.  And there is pretty good chance it was.  Or it could have been an bad cop that would have done that to anyone.  In any case, he should not have been a police officer.

Of all the organizations you could have donated to, the SPLC is probably the worst.  It would have been better to donate to an organization such as the King Center.

 

 

 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 7:39 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :

There, it was coz, and he said the King Center. I misremembered the name, and didn't want to filter through the mess to find it. But I did. Just for you. Because you seem like a good dude. No snark.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 7:46 a.m.

I'm not really a big supporter or a hater of SLPC. All I know is what I read about them. I know the guy who used to run the place was fired for sexual harrassment. I also see a lot of articles about them that read like tin foil hat conspiracy theories. They list both white supremacist organizations and black separatist organizations as hate groups. Charity Navigator gives them a high score, but not the highest score, on accountability and transparency. 

You would think from the reaction of some of the people around here that money was donated to the Church of Satan. 

People here keep saying that the SLPC isn't Southern. Their address is Montgomery, Alabama. That ain't exactly north of Fairbanks. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 7:50 a.m.

People here keep saying that the SLPC isn't Southern. Their address is Montgomery, Alabama. That ain't exactly north of Fairbanks. 

Hey Snowdoggie, I may be the only person to have said that. It was originally conceived as a way to help southern African Americans against KKK style organizations. It isn't that anymore. It is indeed, as you stated, still headquartered in the south.

Marjorie Suddard
Marjorie Suddard General Manager
6/2/20 7:54 a.m.

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

I've thought a lot about my out-of-bounds reply to you, and have decided that I need to do what our mods would tell me to do if they saw that post, and take a step away from the board for a cooling off period. 

And yes, what we posted was obviously divisive. Not intentionally so, though we knew there was a possibility there would be blowback. The charitable donation was something we felt was necessary to give meaning to our words--and to help fight the problem. We're not in a position to give away bunches of money or run off loads of readers; we are in a position to speak and be heard, though. So there it is.

We are heartened by the support we've seen, but saddened that a message of love, support and unity has provoked so much anger.

Margie

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 7:59 a.m.
Marjorie Suddard said:

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

I've thought a lot about my out-of-bounds reply to you, and have decided that I need to do what our mods would tell me to do if they saw that post, and take a step away from the board for a cooling off period. 

And yes, what we posted was obviously divisive. Not intentionally so, though we knew there was a possibility there would be blowback. The charitable donation was something we felt was necessary to give meaning to our words--and to help fight the problem. We're not in a position to give away bunches of money or run off loads of readers; we are in a position to speak and be heard, though. So there it is.

We are heartened by the support we've seen, but saddened that a message of love, support and unity has provoked so much anger.

Margie

Just a note. I have always understood our value systems to be wildly different, and that's fine, we can still be friends. But "Die in a fire"? That was you? That's as hate filled as it gets. I'm not sure I can be friends with so much hate.

 

Then you simultaneously called your statement divisive and also a statement of unity. It cannot be both.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 7:59 a.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

"datsunroadster", whoever he is, also said that he is Southern and the SPLC is not. 

And the SPLC listed twice as many hate groups in California than in the states of Texas, Georgia, Alabama and South Carolina. 

Who knew? 

 

TVR Scott (Forum Supporter)
TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/2/20 8:01 a.m.

Without reading the whole seven page thread, I applaud you and thank you GRM.  I will continue supporting you as long as I'm able.  You are truly family.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 8:02 a.m.
Snowdoggie said:

In reply to tuna55 :

They also listed twice as many hate groups in California than in the states of Texas, Georgia, Alabama and South Carolina. 

Who knew? 

 

I really don't see how that matters. I am making the claim that it's a charity that really is a lobbyist group, and that one thing they have done which I find disturbing is fraudulently label great organizations as hate groups, and since they call themselves the authority, lots of money stops going to good places because of their label. As I said, it would be analagous to calling the NRA or the Westboro Baptist Church a charity.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 8:09 a.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

I honestly don't know all of the organizations on their list. I do remember seeing the Denver Black Panthers and a Klan group in East Texas near a town I am familiar with. The National Review article mentioned churches. 

bigeyedfish
bigeyedfish Reader
6/2/20 8:09 a.m.

I find the most attractive qualities in a person (or organization) are conviction, guts, and humility.  In my opinion, the magazine's statement and follow-up comments show an abundance of all of these.  I respect the hell out of you guys for the willingness to risk subscribers to make your statement.  I think this part, "... because silence equals complicity" is incredibly important.  Thank you for your words.  Keep up the good work.

Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA SuperDork
6/2/20 8:14 a.m.
 

All lives matter , 

They do.  However, this week is all about the black ones because that needs the attention.  Just because people yell "Save the whales!" this week  doesn't mean "berkeley the dolphins!"

 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
6/2/20 8:22 a.m.
Marjorie Suddard said:

We are heartened by the support we've seen, but saddened that a message of love, support and unity has provoked so much anger.

Margie, what I'm seeing is overwhelming agreement with the message. The only issue some folks have is with where you elected to put your money. I don't know anything about the SPLC, but it's clear a lot of people have a big problem with them. Maybe a simple statement like "Next time we'll do more research into which charity we choose" or something like that would help to smooth things over a bit?

mw
mw Dork
6/2/20 8:22 a.m.

Thanks for standing up for what you believe in. It's easy to stay silent and it takes conviction to make a bold statement. Thank you for speaking out for what's right 

spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/2/20 8:26 a.m.
tuna55 said:
Marjorie Suddard said:

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

I've thought a lot about my out-of-bounds reply to you, and have decided that I need to do what our mods would tell me to do if they saw that post, and take a step away from the board for a cooling off period. 

And yes, what we posted was obviously divisive. Not intentionally so, though we knew there was a possibility there would be blowback. The charitable donation was something we felt was necessary to give meaning to our words--and to help fight the problem. We're not in a position to give away bunches of money or run off loads of readers; we are in a position to speak and be heard, though. So there it is.

We are heartened by the support we've seen, but saddened that a message of love, support and unity has provoked so much anger.

Margie

Just a note. I have always understood our value systems to be wildly different, and that's fine, we can still be friends. But "Die in a fire"? That was you? That's as hate filled as it gets. I'm not sure I can be friends with so much hate.

 

Then you simultaneously called your statement divisive and also a statement of unity. It cannot be both.

Their decision to support BLM and donate to SPLC is intended to be unifying behind the cause and bring a greater spotlight to it.  

the nature of people being shiny happy people and racists has turned it into a divisive message for anyone who doesn't agree. 

 

in short

they made their unifying intentions known and as a result knew it would be alienating and divisive for part of their readership. 

 

 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 8:28 a.m.

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa Dork
6/2/20 8:28 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
Type Q said:

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I kind of drew a blank at Figure Stating  

I thought "what would Brian Boitano do?" 

KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter)
KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
6/2/20 8:37 a.m.

Thanks GRM, you guys are doing your best in a E36 M3ty world right now and while things are never perfect we all can seek to improve each day.  None of us say or do the right thing every time but if our overall intentions are good and we learn from our mistakes, lets try to cut one another some slack.

ZOO (Forum Supporter)
ZOO (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 8:42 a.m.

This was a challenging thread to read.  I stand with the GRM family and I am dismayed to see the reactions of some in response to it. Silence is complicity.   Being an ally means standing up to those who share your power and privilege and risk angering those who don’t agree with you.  It’s a noble act, and I am sure that the readers of this thread who represent marginalized and oppressed groups feel supported and loved. 

GRM has done some excellent work to signal inclusiveness in the sport and hobby we love.  It’s clear you work to be allies (I prefer the term accomplice, though, because you are working to dismantle a system that is unjust).  

I am proud of your response and proud to be one of your dorks.  

Rob

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 8:44 a.m.

FWIW, my own quick take. 

My subscription and donation money to GRM have nothing to do with my politics - I'm just paying for a product (magazine/forum/community) that I enjoy. Once I have paid for the product, that money isn't mine any more, and what GRM or the GRM owners/staff do with it is fully up to them (I don't care at all, as long as the organization is at least tacitly doing something positive and not blatantly criminal or violent). I have good friends on both far ends of the political spectrum. They're still my friends, even if some of them are idiots and I may disagree with their ideals (even strongly). 

Every one of us supports hundreds of businesses every day that are owned by people or organizations that support causes that are not what me or you may support. You think you know know where your money goes when you give it to Summit Racing? or to WeatherTech? or to your local gas station? or to the dozens of small-operation car parts fabricators you buy stuff from? That company you buy your billet camber plates from could just as easily be part of the Chinese Government, or a fabricator who gives money to the Klan or to ISIS or whatever. Like you know. You don't ask every vendor where they're spending the money you send them (and they wouldn't tell you anyhow). So, good on GRM for being transparent, even if it may not have been the best idea in a practical sense (for reasons obvious in this thread). 

As to the actual politics and current events in question - I'll be happy to talk about that over a beer in person (post-COVID, of course); I come to GRM to talk about cars and get away from current events, so the political leanings of the forum members here is of no interest to me whatsoever (hence my general absence from OT even though I'm on this forum hours per day).  To those who may say I'm  "silent and complicit" by not talking about it on GRM forum - this is simply not the venue where I go to talk politics. I prefer to E36 M3 in my bathroom, not in my garage. 

ZOO (Forum Supporter)
ZOO (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 8:51 a.m.
tuna55 said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

I think it is likely a worthy exercise in reflection to consider why you don’t like such groups.  Why do they make you uncomfortable or angry?  To what degree do they challenge your privilege and how does that inform your response to them?

I don’t know you at all  I’m not calling you a racist   I am acknowledging that I have worked through this process in my life as a cis-gendered, heterosexual, white male of privilege   I’ve learned that although I don’t consider myself to be racist, I am a product of a society that actively teaches and practices systemic racism   Therefore, I may indeed have been racist without ever intending to cause harm  

Let me elaborate   I’ve been a high school teacher for 27 years   For 25 years I avoided teaching much about Canada’s Indigenous population for fear of “making a mistake” or “offending someone”   In reality all that accomplished was me reinforcing the ongoing marginalization of my Indigenous students who didn’t see themselves in what we were learning   It really doesn’t get more “racist” than that — my power combined with silence made me complicit in a system that causes harm.  I have to be better than that if I want real change, and I’ve been given the opportunity to do so.  I’ve been humbled by it and I have grown to be better.

Rob

 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 8:55 a.m.
ZOO (Forum Supporter) said:
tuna55 said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

I think it is likely a worthy exercise in reflection to consider why you don’t like such groups.  Why do they make you uncomfortable or angry?  To what degree do they challenge your privilege and how does that inform your response to them?

i don’t know you at all  I’m not calling you a racist   I am acknowledging that I have worked through this process in my life as a cis-gendered, heterosexual, white male of privilege   I’ve learned that although I don’t consider myself to be racist, I am a product of a society that actively teaches and practices systemic racism   Therefore, I may indeed have been racist without ever intending to cause harm  

Let me elaborate   I’ve been a high school teacher for 27 years   For 25 years I avoided teaching much about Canada’s Indigenous population for fear of “making a mistake” or “offending someone”   In reality all that accomplished was me reinforcing the ongoing marginalization of my Indigenous students who didn’t see themselves in what we were learning   It really doesn’t get more “racist” than that — my power combined with silence made me complicit in a system that causes harm.

 

To be totally fair here, I never mentioned BLM, he did. I simply tried to be thorough by quoting both groups he mentioned. Also, I gave several good reasons why I cannot support SPLC, and none of them have anything to do with comfort or anger.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/2/20 9:06 a.m.
ZOO (Forum Supporter) said:

 

Let me elaborate   I’ve been a high school teacher for 27 years   For 25 years I avoided teaching much about Canada’s Indigenous population for fear of “making a mistake” or “offending someone”   In reality all that accomplished was me reinforcing the ongoing marginalization of my Indigenous students who didn’t see themselves in what we were learning   It really doesn’t get more “racist” than that — my power combined with silence made me complicit in a system that causes harm.  I have to be better than that if I want real change, and I’ve been given the opportunity to do so.  I’ve been humbled by it and I have grown to be better.

Rob

 

Really powerful statement here. Thanks for sharing and for caring. One of my friends was born on Baffin Island. They sure need as many qualified and helpful people up there as possible. ( not that I'm suggesting you move to the arctic circle). smiley

 

riffing off what you said. I was talking to an old employee of mine about this. He's an Ethiopian refugee. Parents moved him here as a child. His dad was a college professor and persecuted I one of many regime changes. Anyways. He goes on about blind spots and biases. And I'm taken aback because I'd have thought he was one person who had little. And he does. We all do. It's acknowledging them and working to understand others that is the most powerful here.  Don't be colorblind. Be accepting.  Celebrate others stories.  It was his daughter who called him out most recently. He told his son to not throw like a girl and that hurt her. 

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 9:07 a.m.
Mr_Asa said:
ProDarwin said:
Type Q said:

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I kind of drew a blank at Figure Stating  

I thought "what would Brian Boitano do?" 

My first thought was "take a knee".

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
6/2/20 9:09 a.m.
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:
Mr_Asa said:
ProDarwin said:
Type Q said:

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I kind of drew a blank at Figure Stating  

I thought "what would Brian Boitano do?" 

My first thought was "take a knee".

That's Tonya Harding. 

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
6/2/20 9:09 a.m.
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:
Mr_Asa said:
ProDarwin said:
Type Q said:

NASCAR

Formula Drift

SUV’s

Pontiac Aztec

Prius owners

Ford vs Chevy

Jeep

Figure Stating

 

I kind of drew a blank at Figure Stating  

I thought "what would Brian Boitano do?" 

My first thought was "take a knee".

Pretty sure Tonya Harding would be the first to take a knee. laugh

Edit: Dangit! Sniped by mnsdm. Damn you!

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 9:11 a.m.

The "silence makes you complicit" thing doesn't actually speak the whole truth.

 

I have not now, nor will I ever, feel the need to say I'm not racist or prejudiced. Talk is cheap, actions are what matters. This will probably be the only time I speak of this.

 

Anger doesn't solve this. Looting doesn't solve this. Rioting doesn't solve this and attacking everyone in a very emotional way really doesn't solve this.

 

It's mission creep. For those that don't know what that means here's Google's say in it "a gradual shift in objectives during the course of a military campaign, often resulting in an unplanned long-term commitment.​​​​​​". The idea behind all this is to be inclusive and not divisive, everyone is equal, everyone is included, everyone is on the same page.

 

None of that is helped by the near constant anger being throw around all the time now. People are mad and when they can't find enemies to attack.....they are making them. 

 

This is not the way

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 9:12 a.m.

The reaction here just illustrates how important it is to take a public position.

Thanks again. I'm proud to be here. I'll be ordering more dork stickers to show my support. 

BTW, we're ordering this. 

 

 

spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/2/20 9:16 a.m.
tuna55 said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

maybe i could have said "and/or" instead of "and" and it would have been better or not mentioned SPLC. 

but, a bunch of people are getting their E36 M3 twisted about where money was donated to by GRM and it was done in support of the BLM movement. so i mentioned the two together. 

and yes, those who are staying silent are being complictly racist. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 9:18 a.m.
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) said:
tuna55 said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

maybe i could have said "and/or" instead of "and" and it would have been better or not mentioned SPLC. 

but, a bunch of people are getting their E36 M3 twisted about where money was donated to by GRM and it was done in support of BLM. so i mentioned the two together. 

and yes, those who are staying silent are being complictly racist. 

Just to be incredibly clear, you are telling me, based on posts I have made here, that I am a racist. Right?

ZOO (Forum Supporter)
ZOO (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 9:21 a.m.
Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

The "silence makes you complicit" thing doesn't actually speak the whole truth.

I respectfully disagree.  There was a time in this hobby when I was around people who were overtly racist.  I ignored it, because hey, we were all white, and it was car stuff.  All that did was empower them.  Being an ally means challenging that racism every single time.  It's meant the end of some relationships.  But not hanging around racists is actually much better for my health.

 

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 9:27 a.m.
ZOO (Forum Supporter) said:
Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

The "silence makes you complicit" thing doesn't actually speak the whole truth.

I respectfully disagree.  There was a time in this hobby when I was around people who were overtly racist.  I ignored it, because hey, we were all white, and it was car stuff.  All that did was empower them.  Being an ally means challenging that racism every single time.  It's meant the end of some relationships.  But not hanging around racists is actually much better for my health.

 

Ending relationships and not hanging around them and/or not empowering them are actions. Actions in the right direction.

spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/2/20 9:28 a.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

never called you a racist. 

i said those who stay silent and unsupportive of the BLM movement and choose to not speak for it are being complicity racist. 

the point is to say; "hey, now is the time to stand up and say, whats going on isn't ok" because by not being willing to just say that... not even act upon it... just say that or something like it.. yeah... that's supporting the status quo and its complicit racism.

 

some people are showing no support for the message GRM was pushing out and just wanna be angry about how they donated money. 

Those people are shiny happy people and are being complicitly racist.. intended or not. 

if you wanna complain just about SPLC and are supportive of the GRM message, then so be it.. i think those people are jerks and kinda being shiny happy people.

ZOO (Forum Supporter)
ZOO (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 9:28 a.m.
tuna55 said:
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) said:
tuna55 said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Are you literally saying that anyone who doesn't like BLM and SPLC is a racist? Just point blank?

maybe i could have said "and/or" instead of "and" and it would have been better or not mentioned SPLC. 

but, a bunch of people are getting their E36 M3 twisted about where money was donated to by GRM and it was done in support of BLM. so i mentioned the two together. 

and yes, those who are staying silent are being complictly racist. 

Just to be incredibly clear, you are telling me, based on posts I have made here, that I am a racist. Right?

It may be really important to distinguish between individual racism and systemic racism here.  Few people aspire to be individual racists.  Many people who have power (from things such as skin colour, education, wealth, health, sex, gender, among others) benefit from systemic racism.  Benefiting from systemic racism probably means you are "racist" in that your beliefs or actions may harm others, even if you don't intent to be "racist".  The good news is that one can learn to deconstruct systemic racism and to help make things better.

 

ZOO (Forum Supporter)
ZOO (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 9:29 a.m.
Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:
ZOO (Forum Supporter) said:
Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

The "silence makes you complicit" thing doesn't actually speak the whole truth.

I respectfully disagree.  There was a time in this hobby when I was around people who were overtly racist.  I ignored it, because hey, we were all white, and it was car stuff.  All that did was empower them.  Being an ally means challenging that racism every single time.  It's meant the end of some relationships.  But not hanging around racists is actually much better for my health.

 

Ending relationships and not hanging around them and/or not empowering them are actions. Actions in the right direction.

That is my point.  When I was silent about their actions, I was complicit. They felt empowered by my silence. 

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 9:34 a.m.

In reply to ZOO (Forum Supporter) :

Possibly, and I see your point.

 

My point is actions speak louder than words ever can. I can, and have, crushed discrimination with action rather than words and found it works better.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
6/2/20 9:34 a.m.
RALLYRS said:

So Antifa is just "people standing up to white supremacist wackos, are they?

Tell that to Journalist Andy Ngo. Some of your nice "Anti Facist"(yeah right!)buddies put him in the hospital for the crime of being a conservative and filming them with a go pro. And he is obviously not even White.

 

If you are speaking out against ANTIFA, then you are FA.

Andy Ngo isn't a journalist.  He's a fascist who makes a living out of twisting reality and posting lies on the internet.  He's constantly posting pictures and videos of violence on Twitter and labelling it "ANTIFA" even when it clearly is not that.

 

 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 9:36 a.m.

RE: Zoo and Spacecadet

 

I wish to honestly try here. I do not support SPLC, and take issue with every donation to them, and their status as a charity. Depending on how I read the words there, that either makes me a racist or a shiny happy person or perhaps both.

 

I believe we understand racism differently, and hate differently. I believe that we could have a fruitful discussion about this, but likely not here. It would probably have to be in person. This word has been misused that the terms have to be explicitly redefined. As for now, one of us is asking how much Tuesday weighs, and the other is emphatically answering 45 inches.

 

I said it on page 1. I aspire to teach my children to love everyone, and acknowledge everyone has varying levels of history working for and against them, and to never assume so based on skin color, eye color, blood type or anything else. I hope they do better than I have.

As for this, I am appalled that a call for the end of hate ends with... more hate. If you're telling someone to die in a fire, calling people names (shiny happy people is a name here I think, but I don't know which one), throwing a brick at someone or something like that, then you're fighting hate with hate. I see peaceful protests and am grateful. I love the free hugs guy that seems to show up at every protest. More love all around is required. Name calling, accusations and riots are not going to get us anywhere.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/2/20 9:38 a.m.

This isn't a deal breaker?  I'm not so sure about that. 

I'm glad my dollars, opinions and thoughts on this do not matter to those involved.  I'd postulate they do by your response alone, but you said it's nothing to you.  I have to believe you just like I have to believe China is a "democratic republic," and ANTIFA is anti-facist (but the hallmark of facism is using violence to crush dissent).   I guess I should also believe the SPLC is a defender of race, equality and justice even though their entire history speaks otherwise, because they say so. 

I would love nothing more than to go back in time and this never have become a topic here and to go back to talking about the piece of crap cars in my garage and driveway.  I'm having a real hard time with that after finding out my opinions and thoughts don't matter, aren't valid, and I need to be onboard with the SPLC.  I'm not onboard with their hate and vitriol and divisiveness. 

This constant division within our society is the problem. 

And I have really bad news for you.  If we have martial law what happened to George Floyd will happen to many more people of all colors and ethnic backgrounds.  While racism might have played a role, the real problem is having a large under-trained, over weaponnized police force that is being used as a weapon in our society by evil people.  The police are put in a terrible position by these people and forced to decide between behaving like this or feeding their own families. If you didn't learn that from the Corona lockdowns, you weren't watching.  In this case we may have had one awful racist cop murdering a fellow man.  This wasn't the first time this person did something evil.  Why was this person still an officer of the law?  You don't just wake up one day and kneel on someone's neck until dead for fun.  It's not human nature.  This behavior was learned, taught, and worst of all CONDONED over a long period of time. 

But donating money to organizations that beat the racist drum daily, give money for bail to arsons, vandals, thieves, and those that execute violent attacks on their fellow man is the answer?  I think not.  Then telling me that this donation is being done to right a wrong?  Two wrongs don't make a right, never have and never will. 

I'm fine being here and being an enabler of bad automotive decisions.  I don't mind being enabled into my own bad automotive decisions either.  I cannot be happy, in anyway, being an enabler of organizations and persons that do evil on other human beings though.  That's kind of a deal breaker for me. 

If by definition what is going on in this country in all our major cities is good, and ANTIFA is righteous, and the SPLC is a bastion of good, then I'm probably the village idiot.  If what is going on is evil, ANTIFA is the antithesis of what they claim and the SPLC is a greedy profiteering scam (one of the articles I linked flat out says it's a scam; which it is), that doesn't make things any better.  But if the concensus here is that ANTIFA, the SPLC, and the mobs destroying our cities are righteous and offer more value than I do, then I gotta move on.  Somethings are just more important than cars. 

And honestly calling me a conservative or liberal in the context of the US political system is just downright offensive.  Let's look at major issues:

1)  Abortion, your body your choice.  You decide with your partner, family, leaders etc.  Don't lay your murderous ways at my feet though.

2)  LGBTQ.  Again your body, your choice.  I really don't care.  I don't choose to participate, but that's my choice.

3)  Budget:  Yah conservative as all get out; balance it baby.

4)  Military:  I served 10 years.  I chose to never work in the defense industry after for good reasons.  I also have come to realize this country was never intended to have a large standing military force, because it is too dangerous.

5)  Drugs:  These people need help.  Locking them away in prison is not helpful, unless you are trying to train career criminals.  Prison is like a PhD for crime.  Legalize marijuana.  I wish people were using this more now; less violence more munchies.

6)  Racism.  By and large this is an education and child abuse issue.  It is a taught , learned behavior as pointed out by type Q.  The real issue in our country is that it is MADE into an issue by the fringes to foment hate, anger and violence.  I feel the SPLC is complicit in this and is the problem and not the solution.  I have never seen a racist child, ever.  I've seen racist teens and adults my entire life and seen racist societies.  It was learned.  It is the lowest common denominator of human intelligence and is used as a tool to control and destroy. 

7)  Gun control:  It's a tool.  Learn to use it properly, your life could depend on it.  Also the worlds "shall not be infringed," have absolutely zero to do with hunting.  I should be able to own an M1 Abrams tank and park it in my driveway if I can afford it, as it falls under "arms" as in armaments.  And armed population is far more valuable (and polite) and safe than any standing army. 

Any other major issues you want to know where I stand?  I'm hardly conservative, by any means. 

You clearly know me about as well as you knew the SPLC before you sent them your support.  That is misguided at best. 

 

 

 

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 9:42 a.m.

Let me try this again

 

My point is, I'm doing the same stuff I have always done. I never have stood for discrimination and I never will. 

 

I don't think yelling at everyone, or fighting hate with more hate is the way. I think hate needs to be eradicated in a non emotional, inevitable, never ending extermination.

 

I also don't think I need to say that I'm doing that all the time. My actions weigh heavier than my words.

 

Does that make sense?

ZOO (Forum Supporter)
ZOO (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 9:42 a.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

I can only speak about my experiences in an Ontario school, but I suspect it may hold true in a broader community.  We teach racism incorrectly.  And that has led to much confusion about the term that lends itself to people not seeing the issue.  We teach racism as an individual action against a person who is different.  But really what we need to teach is systemic and institutionalized racism -- and that because we are all products of that system, it is likely we are racist even if we don't intend that in any matter at all.

Teach your children to listen and understand that they may be called out as racist by someone who is oppressed or marginalized.  If they are lucky, that person will take the time to explain why -- which is a huge amount of emotionalenergy and labour.  Don't teach your children to reject the word without consideration of the why.  It's tough.  Really tough.  But worth it.

I would be happy to have a beer.  I'd even do a ZOOM beer if you'd like to do this virtually.  Anyone can join me.

Aaron_King
Aaron_King PowerDork
6/2/20 9:48 a.m.
Stampie (FS) said:

When I signed up to serve I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.  One part of that Constitution is Freedom of Speech.  That applies to those I agree with and disagree with.  

This exactly.  If more people would remember this things would be a lot better.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/2/20 9:48 a.m.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is rated 4/4 by Charity Navigator, among the top charities in the U.S.  They could be more efficient with their funds, but overall they get high marks for accountability and transparency.  Their mission is at odds with certain interests and media platforms, so it's not surprising that they are a popular punching bag in certain circles.

I would encourage readers to do their own research and draw their own conclusions.  Even better, call or e-mail the charity yourself and ask them questions.  As is typically the case, the loudest opinions in this thread appear to be the least informed.

 

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4482

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
6/2/20 9:52 a.m.

What people need to do right now is turn down the volume.

My wife is a woman of color and also dislikes the SPLC but the folks at GRM felt compelled to do something; their heart is in the right place.

There's a great line from an Austin Powers movie "what I can't stand is people who are intolerant for other peoples cultures and the Dutch, I hate the Dutch".

 

tremm
tremm New Reader
6/2/20 9:56 a.m.

Not gonna read the whole thread, just say two things.

1) I generally support the side of level headedness, kindness, tolerance, etc.

2) If a family member was in such dire straits that they needed to ask me for money, and I gave it to them not expecting to be repaid, then I found out they were donating money to someone else who probably isn't going hungry, I'd be really pissed.

I hope GRM has their finances in order 'cause I don't think I'll be making any donations without some form of goods in return. Things like patreon, kickstarter, gofundme, etc. have (imo) lead to real shaky attitudes where the people asking for money frequently have more than the people they're asking it from. Poor taste in my eyes

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) MegaDork
6/2/20 9:57 a.m.
Snowdoggie said:

You would think from the reaction of some of the people around here that money was donated to the Church of Satan. 

 

What's wrong with the Church of Satan? That's a serious question. 

 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/2/20 10:03 a.m.
ZOO (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to tuna55 :

I can only speak about my experiences in an Ontario school, but I suspect it may hold true in a broader community.  We teach racism incorrectly.  And that has led to much confusion about the term that lends itself to people not seeing the issue.  We teach racism as an individual action against a person who is different.  But really what we need to teach is systemic and institutionalized racism -- and that because we are all products of that system, it is likely we are racist even if we don't intend that in any matter at all.

Teach your children to listen and understand that they may be called out as racist by someone who is oppressed or marginalized.  If they are lucky, that person will take the time to explain why -- which is a huge amount of emotionalenergy and labour.  Don't teach your children to reject the word without consideration of the why.  It's tough.  Really tough.  But worth it.

I would be happy to have a beer.  I'd even do a ZOOM beer if you'd like to do this virtually.  Anyone can join me.

Sorry man, no Zoom. I've had enough Zoom to last me a long time. It's as I said though, our hearts are both in roughly the same place but our axioms are very different.

AAZCD (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/2/20 10:06 a.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

I don't agree with everything you said, but I can appreciate your levelheaded and calm dissent.

I hope that when Margie feels better she has a better response than "Shut up racist."

In the end I hope that we can all stay together based on the common passion for Motorsports and machines rather than being divided by the societal pressures.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/2/20 10:11 a.m.

Just going to post this again: 

Tom Suddard said:

I feel the need to set the record straight on one thing:

Yes, a few months ago, going into the pandemic, we posted that the future was extremely uncertain and your support mattered more than ever. We said in this post:

Put simply, we face an existential threat unless you #SupportMotorsport and support us, too. We’d like to still be a part of the motorsports world when it emerges from this crisis in a few months, but we’re not going to be unless you support us any way you can. 

And you all supported us more than ever. You directly kept us going, and it did and still does mean the world to us. And since that post, well, the world opened back up again (whether or not it should have is a discussion for another thread). Because of your support, we were as strong as ever when it opened. Advertising resumed. Financially-speaking, things got better. You'll also notice that we didn't make a follow-up post, ask for more money, or even mention Patreon again aside from the links at the bottom of articles for those who like what they're reading. You saved us, and now we're here. Thank you. 

 

tremm
tremm New Reader
6/2/20 10:15 a.m.

That was posted April 4, GRM doesn't carry a 2 month reserve?

Sorry if it's been posted already, but what was the donation amount anyway?

jharry3
jharry3 HalfDork
6/2/20 10:16 a.m.

Having been given a "strike" against me for making a slightly right-wing comment, against Hillary if I remember correctly, on a thread that was getting all politically wonky and slightly left wing I pretty much figured out where the owner's political opinions reside a while back.  So I stayed off political threads because I am here for the car stuff anyway.

  But this donation does surprise me considering SPLC has a lot of baggage politically and published abuses of women and use of donations.      https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/08/17/southern-poverty-law-center-hate-groups-scam-column/2022301001/

  I am a magazine subscriber because I like to read about  the topics published. 

I am not a forum donator because of that strike against me.   I realize this opinion may get me two more strikes and expulsion from the group.    If that happens I'll just let my subscription run out...

 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/2/20 10:19 a.m.

In reply to tremm :

As previously posted, we donated our June Facebook marketing budget instead of spending it with Facebook. 

Justjim75
Justjim75 Dork
6/2/20 10:20 a.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/03/29/us/splc-leadership-crisis/index.html

from very left leaning CNN

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/2022301001

USA today

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-reckoning-of-morris-dees-and-the-southern-poverty-law-center?source=search_google_dsa_paid&gclid=CjwKCAjwztL2BRATEiwAvnALcjI-RH40GNTazH12dgvKdRNpYA-gj82oQNLB0cl8U7lfJG3g2Q-JzBoC-oUQAvD_BwE

New Yorker

And for the record, I said well intentioned and misguided.  I will stick to that.  

I'm not sure if I should expand on murder by the police and racism and how I find this country more racist everyday.  Not taking any political side, but there are clearly people labeling, calling and making everything racist in order to turn profits and gain votes.  I cannot support that, even indirectly.  

I feel as if my time serving this country, my grandfathers death serving this country and the lives of all that served are being spat upon and dishonored.  All the while I'm being told it's a "net good."  

No, giving to a law firm that says one thing, and does very different things, is not a net benefit to anyone.  SPLC is in fact fanning the flames of racism making the horrible things we see today possible.  Keep following in misguided belief with a good heart, and you will find yourself more confused as to why all this is happening and thinking you "must" do something else.  

They continue to fan the flames by claiming anyone that doesn't agree with their far left sentiments is a racist hate group.  

I'm really unhappy about this, and for the record I hate both the extreme left and extreme right and love this country and sll the people in the middle.  Stay towards the middle and don't let yourself be swayed by the pretty words and ideas of the extremes.  SPLC is very extreme.

And in case you are wondering why I say they are fanning the flames.  Remember Dees said they are just selling a product?  Well they sell racism and hate, take you pick.

What happened to George Floyd was a horrific murder caught on camera.  Donating to the SPLC does not help.  It just ensures that plenty of pallets of bricks and paymemts will be available to burn down our cities and kill those who are trying to protect their homes, businesses, familes and themselves.  The extreme left and right both want racial divide and violence which are not natural to the US or our values.  Donating to either cause just adds to their resources.

I live in Montgomery, +1000

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa Dork
6/2/20 10:24 a.m.
Tom Suddard said:

In reply to tremm :

As previously posted, we donated our June Facebook marketing budget instead of spending it with Facebook. 

Honestly, the fact that you withheld from FB makes me as happy as the donation.

tremm
tremm New Reader
6/2/20 10:32 a.m.

$50? $500? I don't know anything about facebook marketing costs

Rowdy_Trickle
Rowdy_Trickle
6/2/20 10:36 a.m.

I am all for GRM speaking their mind, using their medium to voice their concerns, it is what makes this country great. The ability to have freedom of speech, freedom of press, the right to assembly, and so on. Look at the oppression that is happening in Hong Kong, the widespread racism in Guangzhou China, the state filtering and controlling internet content, and all the media outlets, one can quickly realize that we truly live in a great country. We need to work together instead to resolve difficult issues as such instead of divided.

What am I not okay with? GRM repeatedly asking for donations to keep them afloat during these tumultuous times, pulling on our heartstrings as if they might have to close their doors, only to turn around and make a donation to a not so good organization. You can do whatever you'd like with your capital overhead; again its the great part of this country, but don't give us some bullE36 M3 sob story asking for charitable contributions anymore. I feel played. I could have put that donation money towards my kid's college fund, instead I tried helping a business out that has provided me an escape from reality every now and then, that gave me hope and aspirations of getting on track, that has an amazing community that is always willing to help and provide positive feedback to questions.

I know you guys are better than this, it's disappointing.

/r

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
6/2/20 10:38 a.m.
Rowdy_Trickle said:

I am all for GRM speaking their mind, using their medium to voice their concerns, it is what makes this country great. The ability to have freedom of speech, freedom of press, the right to assembly, and so on. Look at the oppression that is happening in Hong Kong, the widespread racism in Guangzhou China, the state filtering and controlling internet content, and all the media outlets, one can quickly realize that we truly live in a great country. We need to work together instead to resolve difficult issues as such instead of divided.

What am I not okay with? GRM repeatedly asking for donations to keep them afloat during these tumultuous times, pulling on our heartstrings as if they might have to close their doors, only to turn around and make a donation to a not so good organization. You can do whatever you'd like with your capital overhead; again its the great part of this country, but don't give us some bullE36 M3 sob story asking for charitable contributions anymore. I feel played. I could have put that donation money towards my kid's college fund, instead I tried helping a business out that has provided me an escape from reality every now and then, that gave me hope and aspirations of getting on track, that has an amazing community that is always willing to help and provide positive feedback to questions.

I know you guys are better than this, it's disappointing.

/r

First post.  Signed up today.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/2/20 10:39 a.m.

We're not going to publicly share our donation amount.

If it's $1, we'll be attacked for not donating enough and making empty promises.

If it's $100,000, we'll be attacked for overspending and stealing from all of the people who paid us for goods and services rendered.

The answer is between those two numbers, and the amount is not relevant to this discussion. We want to focus on the statement. 

I don't see this as political. Silence (or neutrality, if you'd prefer,) helps the oppressor, never the oppressed, making this a humanitarian issue at its core. What happened to George Floyd was racist. Jim Crow never died, he just went on living in people's minds. 

And I have to think that the majority of you who dissent with the donation or indeed the initial post of solidarity do so with the best intentions, but trust me when I say it doesn't read well. Don't think for a minute that the entire staff of MM Inc. just hastily came to this decision, either. So thank you, Tim, Marjorie, Tom, Katie, David, J.G, Nancy, Kevin, Nicole, Colin, Chris, Sarah and Robin. 

But it's all a moot point: The money has been given, and the post stands. Either you make peace with it and we move forward together, or you quietly leave the party. 

 

volvoclearinghouse (Forum Supporter)
volvoclearinghouse (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
6/2/20 10:48 a.m.

I'm very late to this party, but I thought I'd share a story I try to forget, but which this thread made me think of.

About ten years ago I was living in a very rural area in a state pretty far south of the Mason Dixon line.  One day I was talking to a neighbor at his house, when a friend of the neighbor's came over.  It was a warm day, so we were all of us in short sleeves, and I happened to notice that the friend had a Swastika tattoo on one of his arms.  I was shocked- literally repulsed.  I had never, ever seen such a thing in real life.  I knew, intuitively, that there were people like that, but I guess mentally I just sort of "blocked" them from existence. 

But now, here was this real life, Swastika-tattoo'd fellow standing within arm's reach of me.  I had been talking with the neighbor about something unrelated, and honestly forget why the conversation turned but the neighbor's friend said something that opened up a vaguely racist topic of conversation.  Coupled with the tattoo, it didn't take much math to add up the situation in my head. 

I happened to glance down at the tattoo'd guy's feet and saw that he was wearing (and I am not making this up) Nike 'Air Jordan' sneakers.  After some particularly derogatory remark about 'Blacks' from him, I asked him, in as neutral a tone as I could muster, why he was wearing sneakers marketed by a successful black man.  Stunned, he stared at me, probably trying to size me up.  He quickly got agitated, angry, and took a stance that said "I am going to punch you right in the face right now."  He wasn't appreciably larger than I was, and I figured I was going to fight back- hard. 

As it happened, the neighbor, who WAS appreciably larger than both of us, stepped in between us and suggested I go home.  Seeing that it was his property, I respected his request, and left.  That's about the closest I've ever come to putting my own well-being on the line for that cause like that. 

I share that story not to pat myself on the back as some sort of anti-racism warrior, but to provide some background on my convictions.  Donating to a cause doesn't move the meter.  Everyday actions do.  Collectively, the attitude I see a lot of seems to be laziness- we don't want to actually DO anything to help a certain cause either way, so we'll just donate money to some people who claim they will do something.  Throw money at the problem.  I recognize most of us are not in the position to do big exciting things like a multi-million dollar organization seems to be, so we think our $10 or $20 or whatever is "good enough".  I disagree with that notion.  I think taking the time to look at our own actions, and how we conduct our lives, and trying to do better, will do a lot more to help society as a whole than simply writing checks. 

I disagree with the decision to donate to the SLPC.  Not only because I disagree with the actions of the organization, but because I think that money (some of which came from me, as a Forum Supporter) would be better used by GRM to do GRM's mission.  There is a distinction, I think, between money exchanged for goods and services, and a donation.  I pay for a subscription to the magazine, and I get, in exchange, reading material.  What GRM does with my subscription fee is their business.  But Forum Support is different, and to turn around and support political causes while requesting financial help gives the wrong impression.

In light of recent events, I'm glad GRM's balance sheet is doing better again, so it sounds like additional support and donations are no longer needed. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/2/20 10:50 a.m.

I think a donation to an organization that *tries* to crusade for social justice is a decent gesture in these times. I don't feel bad that any donation on my part went there, as it could have been used for much worse things and never disclosed. 

Don't forget that sometimes when you buy toilet paper you're donating to the Koch empire and their agenda. Still gotta wipe.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 10:52 a.m.

I am not a supporter of PETA. I disagree with their views on draft horses in New York City. I disagree with their views on the Iditarod. I actually ran dog teams in Colorado so I would be one of their targets as far as recreational mushing.  And you guys from the "Berkin Mice" thread don't want to know what PETA thinks about your pest control efforts. I think they are a bit nutty. I have no idea what they do with their donations. Buy blood to throw on people's mink coats, maybe? I have been in dog rescue for over 25 years and assisted in founding three husky rescue groups including one of the largest dog rescue groups in Dallas, a group that has raised almost a million dollars since they started and has rescued close to 2,000 huskies. 

But if GRM decided to give a big donation to PETA, I would just roll my eyes and move on to the model car thread. I don't think I would get upset, pound the table, call people names and threaten to quit the board. I might actually go home and make a donation to Petfinder, Wally's Cocker Spaniel Group or my own rescue group. Why all the emotion about the SPLC? 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 10:52 a.m.

Im truly sorry that what was meant to be an open, honest donation in a time of crisis has become an issue in and of itself.

Again, thank you GRM staff for what you are doing.

I am sorry some people have decided to leave.

Let's all hold hands and move on.

I think this thread should be locked, but that might create cries of conspiracy.

 

KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter)
KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
6/2/20 11:00 a.m.

I firmly support GRMs use of money I donated (and continue to donate) to the cause.  We aren't in a time of " i don't like your guy or don't care for that stance on things".  

We're living through an existential crisis time for our country and declaring oneself apolitical just isn't going to fly any longer.  People need to have the conviction of their beliefs and to ignore that much of their nature isn't helping, it just emboldens those who are standing on the wrong side of history.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
6/2/20 11:04 a.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Well put.

Thank you for seeing the bigger picture. 

Maniac0301
Maniac0301 HalfDork
6/2/20 11:04 a.m.

There seem to be two independent groups who provide oversight on charities.   Both are reasonably favorable towards SPLC with Charitywatch giving a F rating because the SPLC carries several years of operating expense in savings rather than being used immediately.   Given our recent knowledge about how volatile large organizations reserves are I don't find this to be an issue.   Both oversight groups show that a large percentage of the money spent by SPLC goes towards the mission listed.  I'm also highly sure that if GRM had donated to the NAACP, BLM, or The Sentencing Project the same folks would have the same reaction.

https://www.charitywatch.org/charities/southern-poverty-law-center

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4482

Those who are mad enough about GRM donating to the SPLC to leave the community and demonize the organizers seem to be quoting media articles.   The same stories over and over just written by different groups rehashed and repacked repeatedly over the years.

https://www.breitbart.com/tag/splc/

When talking about racism in this context we aren't and shouldn't be focusing on white robed cross burners.   This is about a systematic problem where hard numbers from our justice system show a disproportionate amount of minorities per capita are jailed, beaten, or killed by our justice system.   A system where the sentencing for minorities is far stricter than for others for the same crimes.   

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/color-of-justice-racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/

These protests are not about Trump they are not even really about George Floyd.   They are decades of build up from injustices.   We have a bad tendency to pin bad things on one effigy, go and burn it, and then go back to business never having addressed what caused that effigy.   

About a decade ago I had my world rocked when I was given "the talk" that a black friend gave to his 10 year old son about working with law enforcement. It was not in response to current events things were relatively quiet in the early 2010s. it was just me and him talking as friends and parents. He explained the need and why he felt that it was best for his son to not stand up for his rights when being confronted, the risks were too great.

I was taught to stand up for my rights to respectfully ask questions and I am entitled to certain answers. This is not the lived experience of black America. This talk is not an uncommon thing it is incredibly widespread and it is a survival tactic. We should not consider ourselves a free country when a sizable portion of the US has to tell their middle schoolers how best not to get shot by law enforcement.

When the talk was explained to me I was incredibly incredulous and figured he just had heard a couple bad stories and was being overprotective like most parents do. As the years went on I learned more and more why it was needed and how common it is. I'm fairly open minded but even so I did not like my world being moved that much in one conversation and I rejected his and generations of his families lived experience. I was wrong to do so.

tremm
tremm New Reader
6/2/20 11:17 a.m.

Tom, I think the amount is relative.

From my perspective:

I work in an industry affected by COVID 19. I understood this & tightened the belt back in early March.

I see a post on GRM titled something like, 'COVID 19 is taking down motorsports companies and it could take GRM too'. I interpret this as bankruptcy is coming without reader support, & I set aside $20 for GRM in the event of a second call of desperation.

I've been keeping an eye on it since. Again, from my perspective, there's been a lot of rice & beans between then & now, and my work situation has only gotten worse.

Now, if GRM needs my money to keep food on the table then say so. If they have enough to give away to others then say so.

If it's $50, eh, alright. That's a decent token of, "I'd like to do something but have limited resources right now". I'm sure there are plenty of donations being made to similar causes currently, and those organizations are doing alright. If it's $500 I think we're getting into the realm of irresponsible and selfish decision making.

There are people out there who are taking food off the table to give it to GRM. When someone asks for money, I assume it is a last resort plea of desperation.

 

Personally, I think a more effective position would be to say something like, "excuse me, may I have a few minutes of your time. While steps have been made to crack down on individuals who abuse their positions in a community to engage in unjust violence, it is unfortunately still an occurrence. We encourage anyone interested in bettering the departments of our public servants by eliminating corruption and selfishly active individuals. Some ways to do this are by contacting your local congressional representatives and asking them to support body cameras in your local police departments. You can participate in local community meetings and events. We encourage you to demonstrate peacefully and bear in mind that your local law enforcement agencies are made up of individuals, members of your community. Show them while you're out there that you support the good they do and the good members of the agencies. You can find more information about current strategies to eliminate bad actors from law enforcement agencies at: xxx, yyy, zzz".

I'm personally tired of seeing the same circular platitudes & people "protesting" who are acting like children. Put on a shirt & tie and calmly tell me why and what change you're interested in. A lot of people come off as angsty 18 year olds who don't know what they want, or who their audience is. Seems like a lot of protest just serves to make enemies, make yourself look bad, and not focus on productive things like a course of action, or identification of problem areas.

No E36 M3, bad people exist. They existed yesterday & they'll exist tomorrow. Some of them work at charities. Some of them work at magazines. I'm hesitant to give anyone money, particularly strangers online, and even more so when I can't see exactly how it's spent.

I like GRM & the people who post here, but please keep in mind that some of the community members are very cheap/miserly, very poor, or a bit of both. Doesn't make anyone a bad person, but maybe it will help add a bit of perspective to all sides.

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
6/2/20 11:20 a.m.

In reply to Maniac0301 :

This is very good and how I understand the current situationS.

Dieselboss15
Dieselboss15 New Reader
6/2/20 11:39 a.m.
tremm said:

Tom, I think the amount is relative.

From my perspective:

I work in an industry affected by COVID 19. I understood this & tightened the belt back in early March.

I see a post on GRM titled something like, 'COVID 19 is taking down motorsports companies and it could take GRM too'. I interpret this as bankruptcy is coming without reader support, & I set aside $20 for GRM in the event of a second call of desperation.

I've been keeping an eye on it since. Again, from my perspective, there's been a lot of rice & beans between then & now, and my work situation has only gotten worse.

Now, if GRM needs my money to keep food on the table then say so. If they have enough to give away to others then say so.

If it's $50, eh, alright. That's a decent token of, "I'd like to do something but have limited resources right now". I'm sure there are plenty of donations being made to similar causes currently, and those organizations are doing alright. If it's $500 I think we're getting into the realm of irresponsible and selfish decision making.

There are people out there who are taking food off the table to give it to GRM. When someone asks for money, I assume it is a last resort plea of desperation.

 

Personally, I think a more effective position would be to say something like, "excuse me, may I have a few minutes of your time. While steps have been made to crack down on individuals who abuse their positions in a community to engage in unjust violence, it is unfortunately still an occurrence. We encourage anyone interested in bettering the departments of our public servants by eliminating corruption and selfishly active individuals. Some ways to do this are by contacting your local congressional representatives and asking them to support body cameras in your local police departments. You can participate in local community meetings and events. We encourage you to demonstrate peacefully and bear in mind that your local law enforcement agencies are made up of individuals, members of your community. Show them while you're out there that you support the good they do and the good members of the agencies. You can find more information about current strategies to eliminate bad actors from law enforcement agencies at: xxx, yyy, zzz".

I'm personally tired of seeing the same circular platitudes & people "protesting" who are acting like children. Put on a shirt & tie and calmly tell me why and what change you're interested in. A lot of people come off as angsty 18 year olds who don't know what they want, or who their audience is. Seems like a lot of protest just serves to make enemies, make yourself look bad, and not focus on productive things like a course of action, or identification of problem areas.

No E36 M3, bad people exist. They existed yesterday & they'll exist tomorrow. Some of them work at charities. Some of them work at magazines. I'm hesitant to give anyone money, particularly strangers online, and even more so when I can't see exactly how it's spent.

I like GRM & the people who post here, but please keep in mind that some of the community members are very cheap/miserly, very poor, or a bit of both. Doesn't make anyone a bad person, but maybe it will help add a bit of perspective to all sides.

this post needs way more likes. very true.

Sidewayze
Sidewayze New Reader
6/2/20 11:39 a.m.
TheRX7Project said:

I'm not leaving, but I am disappointed any time any business decides to take a side on anything political. When a business I support begins making donations (partially of my money) towards something politically motivated, it puts a tough decision in my hands. Hopefully this doesn't become a recurring theme at GRM.

I subscribe to GRM because I enjoy the content, and come to the forums to talk cars, and one of the things I truly enjoy most here is that politics is somewhat verboten unless it pertains directly to our hobby.

I fully support George Floyd's family and friends, and those who are taking a stand to end police brutality.

Racism is not political.  It's just wrong. 

Rowdy_Trickle
Rowdy_Trickle New Reader
6/2/20 11:55 a.m.
MrFancypants said:
Rowdy_Trickle said:

I am all for GRM speaking their mind, using their medium to voice their concerns, it is what makes this country great. The ability to have freedom of speech, freedom of press, the right to assembly, and so on. Look at the oppression that is happening in Hong Kong, the widespread racism in Guangzhou China, the state filtering and controlling internet content, and all the media outlets, one can quickly realize that we truly live in a great country. We need to work together instead to resolve difficult issues as such instead of divided.

What am I not okay with? GRM repeatedly asking for donations to keep them afloat during these tumultuous times, pulling on our heartstrings as if they might have to close their doors, only to turn around and make a donation to a not so good organization. You can do whatever you'd like with your capital overhead; again its the great part of this country, but don't give us some bullE36 M3 sob story asking for charitable contributions anymore. I feel played. I could have put that donation money towards my kid's college fund, instead I tried helping a business out that has provided me an escape from reality every now and then, that gave me hope and aspirations of getting on track, that has an amazing community that is always willing to help and provide positive feedback to questions.

I know you guys are better than this, it's disappointing.

/r

First post.  Signed up today.

What's your point? I've lurked the forums, subscribe to the magazine, donated to their "charity" cause to keep their lights on, buy GRM 24 tickets, buy from their sponsors/advertisers, and so on. Apparently I'm not entitled to voice my concerns now.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/2/20 11:58 a.m.

We literally announced what we'd done in a public post on the homepage of both websites and have now hosted 10+ pages of feedback while answering everyone's questions for nearly 24 hours straight. 

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave MegaDork
6/2/20 11:58 a.m.

Thanks GRM.  Well done.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 11:59 a.m.

In reply to tremm :

I'm personally tired of seeing the same circular platitudes & people "protesting" who are acting like children. Put on a shirt & tie and calmly tell me why and what change you're interested in. A lot of people come off as angsty 18 year olds who don't know what they want, or who their audience is. Seems like a lot of protest just serves to make enemies, make yourself look bad, and not focus on productive things like a course of action, or identification of problem areas.

That's been tried. How'd it work out? 

Desperate people do desperate things.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
6/2/20 12:27 p.m.
Marjorie Suddard said:

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

I've thought a lot about my out-of-bounds reply to you, and have decided that I need to do what our mods would tell me to do if they saw that post, and take a step away from the board for a cooling off period. 

And yes, what we posted was obviously divisive. Not intentionally so, though we knew there was a possibility there would be blowback. The charitable donation was something we felt was necessary to give meaning to our words--and to help fight the problem. We're not in a position to give away bunches of money or run off loads of readers; we are in a position to speak and be heard, though. So there it is.

We are heartened by the support we've seen, but saddened that a message of love, support and unity has provoked so much anger.

Margie

What y'all are failing to acknowledge, is why Margie hates the Oxford comma? devil

 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/2/20 12:29 p.m.
z31maniac said:

What y'all are failing to acknowledge, is why Margie hates the Oxford comma? devil

Next ban right here.

accordionfolder
accordionfolder Dork
6/2/20 12:45 p.m.

Thanks GRM - I'll keep subscribing and the forum will keep making me buy questionable cars with no real purpose in mind.....

kgobey
kgobey New Reader
6/2/20 12:49 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Glad to see you go.

Nicole Suddard
Nicole Suddard Marketing Coordinator
6/2/20 12:50 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

It's an AP Style Guide thing. 

kgobey
kgobey New Reader
6/2/20 12:50 p.m.

In reply to Staff of Motorsport Marketing, Inc. :

I support this in every possible way. I stand with you. 

sergio
sergio Reader
6/2/20 1:04 p.m.
Nicole Suddard said:

In reply to z31maniac :

It's an AP Style Guide thing. 

Oh no. Are we going to go down that rabbit hole? :)

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
6/2/20 1:05 p.m.
Nicole Suddard said:

In reply to z31maniac :

It's an AP Style Guide thing. 

I know, I have a BA in Journalism. I was just trying to inject a bit of levity in the midst of all the rancor. 

And I'm positive Margie also knows thats how it was intended. 

 

Nugi
Nugi Reader
6/2/20 1:07 p.m.

I fully support your decision to do Something, and furthermore applaud it. Racisim is nothing to stay silent about.

I have to pipe up here however, as a longtime poster. I think you made an honest mistake and missed the mark with the donation. I was more or less a fan, until SPLC labeled dedicated fans of the band Insane Clown Posse 'juggalos' a hate group. As a casual fan, I kind of object to that kinda thing. Having been to a few shows, I can vouch for an incredibly racially inclusive show, even in semi-rural Tennessee. As a result, SPLC are the one who look like clowns to me. Their other shady actions are well-documented, so I will leave it at that. Their stated mission is a noble one, but I am not sure if their actions align with it. 

Admittedly, it is VERY difficult to find even a benign non-profit these days. I recall witnessing rampant open corruption in Make-A-Wish when I got community service for my 1st speeding ticket as part of a program for teens. I never forgot that. Always do your due diligence on anyone, no matter how lofty their goals, and well-respected their mission.

I support the fact that you guys are trying with your heart. You haven't lost a reader, or a forum member. You sure as heck can't play ball if you leave the stadium. I admire GRM being apolitical as possible, but also speaking up when its time, its a hard line to walk. Thank you. 

KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter)
KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
6/2/20 1:11 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Nicole Suddard said:

In reply to z31maniac :

It's an AP Style Guide thing. 

I know, I have a BA in Journalism. I was just trying to inject a bit of levity in the midst of all the rancor. 

 

A BA in journalism??  Jeebus, why not just get the 18th century french lesbian literature degree if you wanted to squander your time and effort learning something.......

(my brother got a degree in journalism, we all mock him mercilessly for it)  (Insert Nelson Munch meme of "haha your industry is dying.")

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 1:23 p.m.
Nugi said:

 

I have to pipe up here however, as a longtime poster. I think you made an honest mistake and missed the mark with the donation. I was more or less a fan, until SPLC labeled dedicated fans of the band Insane Clown Posse 'juggalos' a hate group. As a casual fan, I kind of object to that kinda thing. Having been to a few shows, I can vouch for an incredibly racially inclusive show, even in semi-rural Tennessee. As a result, SPLC are the one who look like clowns to me. Their other shady actions are well-documented, so I will leave it at that. Their stated mission is a noble one, but I am not sure if their actions align with it. 

Really. 

This is the same Insane Clown Posse that canceled an event at the beginning of the Coronivirus mess because they refuse to risk even ONE Juggalo life. Doesn't sound like a hate group to me. 

Maniac0301
Maniac0301 HalfDork
6/2/20 1:28 p.m.

In reply to Nugi :

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2015/06/12/right-wing-sites-snookered-fake-stories-about-splc-hate-group-designations

This is fake SPLC never made these designations.  In this case as the source is the SPLC themselves I did not trust it so I used the waybackmachine to see if there is any mention of FOX or Juggalos being hate groups by the SPLC and then later deleted to cover their ass.   There just isn't any mention of them until this satire article came out and was then repeated and amplified by FOX without any modicum of fact checking.

There are media groups who do not care that they pass off satire as news and do not care to correct it when pointed out.   If your media does not care to provide you this info I would heavily recommend turning on incognito mode and search on topics yourself.  Incognito mode makes the various search algorithms not take into account your past reading and viewing habits and keeps you out of a bubble of information.   I regularly use it when researching topics.

I also want to mention that the satire site Free Woods Post did write the article mentioned by the SPLC defense and that article has since been deleted by Free Woods Post further corroborating the SPLCs defense.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150612181349/http://www.freewoodpost.com/2015/06/10/fox-news-declared-hate-group-by-southern-poverty-law-center/

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
6/2/20 1:34 p.m.
KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) said:
z31maniac said:
Nicole Suddard said:

In reply to z31maniac :

It's an AP Style Guide thing. 

I know, I have a BA in Journalism. I was just trying to inject a bit of levity in the midst of all the rancor. 

 

A BA in journalism??  Jeebus, why not just get the 18th century french lesbian literature degree if you wanted to squander your time and effort learning something.......

(my brother got a degree in journalism, we all mock him mercilessly for it)  (Insert Nelson Munch meme of "haha your industry is dying.")

I originally wanted to go into radio, since my specialization is Public Relations,  I've got the perfect face for it. :)

But realizing I could make more as a clerk at a gas station changed that. That's why I was a claim rep for State Farm right out of college, then went into Tech Writing. 

I'd love if I could get a job doing something for the OKC Thunder, for example. But I couldn't afford an entry-level salary. 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 1:35 p.m.

In reply to Maniac0301 :

Still. When the insane guys who dress up as clowns sound more sane than some of our politicians and journalists, these are strange times indeed. 

Ranger50
Ranger50 UltimaDork
6/2/20 1:37 p.m.

Yawn.

My only comment of this whole issue.

infinitenexus
infinitenexus HalfDork
6/2/20 1:39 p.m.

Very proud to read that GRM staff is doing this.  I'm just a casual reader and poster, but now I will subscribe and donate to GRM.  

 

The wife and I were at a peaceful protest here for 6-7 hours last night.  I want to emphasize that it was peaceful, no violence, no looting, just the crowd chanting.  The police responded with mace, flash bangs, and arrests*.  It helped to show exactly why we're protesting in the first place.

 

 

*just want to point out that I am also a supporter of the oxford comma.

TasdevEngineer2of3
TasdevEngineer2of3 New Reader
6/2/20 1:39 p.m.

This thought is for the GRM owners - Tim, Margie, Tom......

It is your business, your magazine and your website. You own it. You can print, say and post as you please - you are the owners. As the owners, you know there will be reactions to what you say. As you know, you may gain and lose customers - readers, supporters, partners and advertisers - as a result of same.

I have admired your magazine and forums unique and almost pure focus on what some might call fun with cars. And as Tim referred to recently in the magazine - a release or escape from the daily grind for a few minutes.

You have set a precedent with your statement above and I am concerned about the way forward given your mission statement.

As an aside, I have read your magazine and website for 15 or so years. I am not an online yacky person so don't post a lot to forums - perhaps I am a sock puppet as perceived by those with higher posting ranks than mine as a New Reader.

Rowdy_Trickle
Rowdy_Trickle New Reader
6/2/20 1:42 p.m.

My favorite thing about automotive journalist these days it that a good chunk of theme are pretty extreme in their political views, which is fine, that is their thing, but they are willing to burn bridges with followers and supporters if they aren't of the same belief. You see it from contributors to Road & Track, GRM, Jalopnik, freelancers, you name it - its fairly common across the board. Just go follow their personal social media accounts and you'll see it happen day-in and day-out.

I love the hypocrisy and double standards of most auto journos these days. They will ostracize someone for having marginally different beliefs than them and not being "progressive" which completely goes against the rhetoric they are spouting in the first place.

It's as if actions have no consequences, clicks go down, and the next thing you know, they are being bought out by some firm that will gut, restructure, and re-sell.

APEowner
APEowner Dork
6/2/20 1:45 p.m.
kgobey said:

In reply to Staff of Motorsport Marketing, Inc. :

I support this in every possible way. I stand with you. 

I've written and rewritten several replies to this thread and may come back and take another crack at it but the most important part of each of them was this and I don't want to not say it because I couldn't figure out how to word everything else.

I support this in every possible way. I stand with you. 

 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 1:45 p.m.
z31maniac said:
KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) said:
z31maniac said:
Nicole Suddard said:

In reply to z31maniac :

It's an AP Style Guide thing. 

I know, I have a BA in Journalism. I was just trying to inject a bit of levity in the midst of all the rancor. 

 

A BA in journalism??  Jeebus, why not just get the 18th century french lesbian literature degree if you wanted to squander your time and effort learning something.......

(my brother got a degree in journalism, we all mock him mercilessly for it)  (Insert Nelson Munch meme of "haha your industry is dying.")

I originally wanted to go into radio, since my specialization is Public Relations,  I've got the perfect face for it. :)

But realizing I could make more as a clerk at a gas station changed that. That's why I was a claim rep for State Farm right out of college, then went into Tech Writing. 

I'd love if I could get a job doing something for the OKC Thunder, for example. But I couldn't afford an entry-level salary. 

I remember taking Journalism 1A in college MANY years ago. The rule for publishing in the school paper was that you verify everything with three first hand sources before you publish. How many guys with "news websites" follow that rule today? In fact, how many guys with "news websites" have even taken a journalism class in high school or college. Yes, Alex Jones, I am looking at you. 

No wonder that industry is dying. 

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
6/2/20 1:50 p.m.
Maniac0301 said:

About a decade ago I had my world rocked when I was given "the talk" that a black friend gave to his 10 year old son about working with law enforcement. It was not in response to current events things were relatively quiet in the early 2010s. it was just me and him talking as friends and parents. He explained the need and why he felt that it was best for his son to not stand up for his rights when being confronted, the risks were too great.

I was taught to stand up for my rights to respectfully ask questions and I am entitled to certain answers. This is not the lived experience of black America. This talk is not an uncommon thing it is incredibly widespread and it is a survival tactic. We should not consider ourselves a free country when a sizable portion of the US has to tell their middle schoolers how best not to get shot by law enforcement.

When the talk was explained to me I was incredibly incredulous and figured he just had heard a couple bad stories and was being overprotective like most parents do. As the years went on I learned more and more why it was needed and how common it is. I'm fairly open minded but even so I did not like my world being moved that much in one conversation and I rejected his and generations of his families lived experience. I was wrong to do so.

I'm always surprised when I hear people that didn't get a similar talk at some point from their parents, regardless of their skin color. I don't know for sure that the talk I got was the same as the talk that your friend gave his kids, but I'd imagine there are some similarities.

When I was a very white, clean cut, 15 year old honor student, my whiter than white mother sat me down and had a talk about interacting with police, specifically during a traffic stop. It went something like "If you ever get pulled over, (or have other interaction with the police) try to understand that the officer is likely on edge a little just interacting with you. They're trained to be suspicious and capable of deadly force, so don't do anything that might raise suspicion or set off alarms like sudden movements. Don't give them a reason to be suspicious or escalate the situation. Do what you can to lower their tension level with the following:

If possible, get to a spot that's safe for both you and the officer.

Have your license and papers ready by the time the officer approaches.

If it's dark, turn your dome light on.

Keep your hands on the wheel at all times.

Answer any questions politely and directly.

If you have to remove your hands from the wheel to reach for anything, explain what you're doing to the officer first and let him give you permission.

Try to speak clearly and calmly.

Do your best to remain calm and avoid escalation or confrontation."

Is this not a common type of discussion between parents and kids/teenagers? We lived in a safe, working class suburb and I feel like I still got "the Talk" or at least a version of it.

 

 

 

ALAN HENDERSON
ALAN HENDERSON
6/2/20 1:55 p.m.

Rather than focusing on Motorsports you have chosen to virtue signal. The SPLC is a far left organization and you have alienated many of your readers by choosing a side. If you want to contribute your own money to them fine, but bringing the magazine into the issue is foolish.

 

GRM is my favorite magazine, but I won't renew my subscription. I have no intention of funding something like the SPLC, either directly or indirectly. Asking for donations to keep the magazine afloat and then turning around and giving it away to another organization which has nothing to do with motorsports is deceitful and duplicitous. 

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) MegaDork
6/2/20 1:56 p.m.
sergio said:
Nicole Suddard said:

In reply to z31maniac :

It's an AP Style Guide thing. 

Oh no. Are we going to go down that rabbit hole? :)

People feel very strongly about the Oxford comma, and no argument is going to sway their beliefs on the subject.

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
6/2/20 1:58 p.m.
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:
sergio said:
Nicole Suddard said:

In reply to z31maniac :

It's an AP Style Guide thing. 

Oh no. Are we going to go down that rabbit hole? :)

People feel very strongly about the Oxford comma, and no argument is going to sway their beliefs on the subject.

 

This is 2020, punctuation is political.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 1:59 p.m.
ALAN HENDERSON said:

Rather than focusing on Motorsports you have chosen to virtue signal. The SPLC is a far left organization and you have alienated many of your readers by choosing a side. If you want to contribute your own money to them fine, but bringing the magazine into the issue is foolish.

 

GRM is my favorite magazine, but I won't renew my subscription. I have no intention of funding something like the SPLC, either directly or indirectly. Asking for donations to keep the magazine afloat and then turning around and giving it away to another organization which has nothing to do with motorsports is deceitful and duplicitous. 

Hello sockpuppet. You have been a member since June 2, 2020. You have posted exactly one time in this forum.  

Tell your friend "datsunroadster" that the car in his garage is actually a Volga roadster. 

steronz
steronz Reader
6/2/20 1:59 p.m.

The white nationalists who are now running a not-insubstantial part of the Republican Party have done with the SPLC what the right does with lots of things now -- declared it to be bad without evidence and repeated it so much people just accepted it.  The media is bad because it is, unbiased 3rd-party fact-checkers are untrustworthy because they are, the ACLU is anti-American because it is, science is a scam because it is, the SPLC is a hate group because... it is.  Repeat repeat repeat until people just accept it without question.  Wonderful.

 

Keep fighting the good fight, Suddards.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 2:01 p.m.

In reply to STM317 :

Ask someone who's black what was in their talk. Compare and contrast. 

See also: What "talk" does a senior boy get before prom and how is it different from the "talk" a senior girl gets?

ALAN HENDERSON
ALAN HENDERSON New Reader
6/2/20 2:02 p.m.

"Hello sockpuppet. You have posted exactly one time in this forum.   "

 

 

Because it's the only time I felt the need to.

I think what happened to Floyd was terrible, and what happens to black people everyday in this country is deplorable, but I don't want my favorite magazine and hobby polluted with social issues. It's stupid and does not help the issue.

KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter)
KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
6/2/20 2:07 p.m.

In reply to ALAN HENDERSON :

Pay attention to what I said, the country is in a crisis and you need to pick a side.  Being apolitical is a tacit approval of the status quo and that has gone on for too long.

 

RALLYRS
RALLYRS New Reader
6/2/20 2:08 p.m.
slowbird said:

In reply to RALLYRS :

Andy Ngo is a heavily biased "buddy" to violent right-wing groups that attacked protesters in Portland.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-ngo-right-wing-troll-antifa-877914/

White supremacists love Tucker Carlson too.

And that's it. I'm done with this thread. Fox News is not your friend and they frequently aren't truthful.

Yes, Of course Andy is a Card carrying Goose stepping Asian Nazi White Supremacist.

Laughable.

And of course all Tucker/FOX(I know!-Faux) News viewers are all KKK members just watching until their next Klan meeting. Just like all CNN and MSNBC watchers are card carrying Communists. Of course.

Quite predictably you came back with zero substance to add-just attacking Fox News.

And no mention of the liberal links I posted. I also  posted some liberal links calling out Antifa too,because I knew exactly what your response would be. But of course,crickets.. concerning Vox and R.S.

So you support Andy's beating? Got what he had coming to him for filming"protestors"? If you do-again-good to know what type of person you are.

Especially since in my post- I denounced violence from either side. Antifa scumbags,just like like neo Nazis and racists on the other side-don't get a pass to physically attack people just for disagreeing with them.

Period.

Eff Antifa and anyone who supports them-directly or indirectly.

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
6/2/20 2:09 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:
z31maniac said:

I originally wanted to go into radio, since my specialization is Public Relations,  I've got the perfect face for it. :)

But realizing I could make more as a clerk at a gas station changed that. That's why I was a claim rep for State Farm right out of college, then went into Tech Writing. 

I'd love if I could get a job doing something for the OKC Thunder, for example. But I couldn't afford an entry-level salary. 

I remember taking Journalism 1A in college MANY years ago. The rule for publishing in the school paper was that you verify everything with three first hand sources before you publish. How many guys with "news websites" follow that rule today? In fact, how many guys with "news websites" have even taken a journalism class in high school or college. Yes, Alex Jones, I am looking at you. 

No wonder that industry is dying. 

That's part of it. The other half is the internet. Publications started putting up stories available online, that were still subsidized by print subscriptions, so people got used to getting the info for free.........without having to have a subscription or pick up the Sunday paper at the gas station. Then people came to expect getting the news for free and didn't feel like it was worth paying for it. So they quit subscribing. 

Not to mention the astonishingly low pay. 

When I graduated college in Dec '05, a starting position at the Tulsa World was $24k per year. Basically $11.50/hour for a 40 hour week, which journalists work much more than that. 

So I became a claim rep for State Farm with starting pay close to $40k per year in the spring of '06. 

 

You don't attract the top of the talent pool with low pay and poor benefits. 

 

ALAN HENDERSON
ALAN HENDERSON New Reader
6/2/20 2:13 p.m.

In reply to KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) :

I have chosen a side. That's not the point. Bringing it up to be a point of contention in a magazine supposedly about motorsports is divisive and unnecessary. It does not help the situation, It drives away people who might not agree with the editorial viewpoint. If you don't want me around because I don't agree with you then I don't want to be here.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 2:14 p.m.
ALAN HENDERSON said:

"Hello sockpuppet. You have posted exactly one time in this forum.   "

 

 

Because it's the only time I felt the need to.

I think what happened to Floyd was terrible, and what happens to black people everyday in this country is deplorable, but I don't want my favorite magazine and hobby polluted with social issues. It's stupid and does not help the issue.

It's easy to do nothing when you have nothing at stake.

As for opposing murder as "virtue signalling." Really? In all of this, that's what makes you mad?

You've said your piece. Bye.

LarsBrunkhorst
LarsBrunkhorst New Reader
6/2/20 2:15 p.m.

While I don't post much I have been a dedicated reader of the site for the last couple years, this was the last thing I expected to see on a site that has done a great job of staying on topic over the last couple years.

Being younger than most on this board probably gives me a different perspective but there were three things I felt reading all of these replies;

1. Tom, Margie and more people than I would have guessed are not only looking forward to a brighter future, but also doing something about it, and as a younger individual that brings me great joy. Unfortunately no good deed goes unpunished, and people will find issue with anything.

2. Boomers gonna boom.

3. Some of the veiled language and implied ideas being put forth by some posters have no place at ANY car race/event/show/gathering etc. I can tell you that unless the average age is above 50 you will never hear anything of the sort. (also see #2)

Maybe I'm painting with a broad stroke but what do I know? I'll be in the corner enjoying my tide pod smoothie...

 

P.S. You gained a subscriber for life!

penultimeta
penultimeta HalfDork
6/2/20 2:16 p.m.

Archbishop Desmond Tutu said "Those who stay neutral in situations of injustice have chosen the side of the oppressor" and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said that "There comes a time when silence is betrayal". Thank you GRM staff for speaking out and choosing the side of humanity.  

ALAN HENDERSON
ALAN HENDERSON New Reader
6/2/20 2:17 p.m.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

What makes you think I am not opposed to murder? Of course I am.  What makes me mad is everything nowadays has to be politicized. It ruins everything, including my favorite hobby.

RALLYRS
RALLYRS New Reader
6/2/20 2:18 p.m.
MrFancypants said:
RALLYRS said:

So Antifa is just "people standing up to white supremacist wackos, are they?

Tell that to Journalist Andy Ngo. Some of your nice "Anti Facist"(yeah right!)buddies put him in the hospital for the crime of being a conservative and filming them with a go pro. And he is obviously not even White.

 

If you are speaking out against ANTIFA, then you are FA.

Andy Ngo isn't a journalist.  He's a fascist who makes a living out of twisting reality and posting lies on the internet.  He's constantly posting pictures and videos of violence on Twitter and labelling it "ANTIFA" even when it clearly is not that.

 

 

Well,I don't know what "FA" is,but I'll go out on a limb and guess it's a facist American.

Right,speaking out against people who dress up in black, load up their backpack with weapons, and go out to physically attack people who disagree with them,especially white people..well that's a bad thing.

Just let them bust heads! Just like the Nazi's on the other side do!  Logic Fail.  Violence on either side is bad and Antifa are thugs who deserve what they get coming back to them period.

And if you are one of them you deserve what you get too. Again I condemn the violence on both sides. The leftist side DOES NOT get a pass here-PERIOD.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 2:19 p.m.

So many sockpuppets showing up here. Something fishy is going on. 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 2:20 p.m.
RALLYRS said:
MrFancypants said:
RALLYRS said:

So Antifa is just "people standing up to white supremacist wackos, are they?

Tell that to Journalist Andy Ngo. Some of your nice "Anti Facist"(yeah right!)buddies put him in the hospital for the crime of being a conservative and filming them with a go pro. And he is obviously not even White.

 

If you are speaking out against ANTIFA, then you are FA.

Andy Ngo isn't a journalist.  He's a fascist who makes a living out of twisting reality and posting lies on the internet.  He's constantly posting pictures and videos of violence on Twitter and labelling it "ANTIFA" even when it clearly is not that.

 

 

Well,I don't know what "FA" is,but I'll go out on a limb and guess it's a facist American.

Right,speaking out against people who dress up in black, load up their backpack with weapons, and go out to physically attack people who disagree with them,especially white people..well that's a bad thing.

Just let them bust heads! Just like the Nazi's on the other side do!  Logic Fail.  Violence on either side is bad and Antifa are thugs who deserve what they get coming back to them period.

And if you are one of them you deserve what you get too. Again I condemn the violence on both sides. The leftist side DOES NOT get a pass here-PERIOD.

What about sockpuppets. Do they get a pass? 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Reader
6/2/20 2:25 p.m.

I am on time out, so I am not supposed to post.  If posting this gets me banned, I'm ok with that as I think it is worth posting.  I got an email from 23and me (no idea why) and think it is one of the best corporate "messages" (for lack of a better term) I have seen recently, and well worth a read.

 

 

For those in the black community, we know you carry an extra burden right now and 23andMe stands in solidarity with you.

Our company is based on the foundation that all of us are linked by a shared thread - DNA - that we are genetically 99.5% the same. We share so much in common, yet black and brown skin means you will disproportionately experience injustices and prejudice that can put lives on completely different trajectories.

I feel awful and overwhelmed by the events going on. Hashtag after hashtag, there is little meaningful change. How can we break the cycle? The world is filled with people who, I believe, genuinely want to create an equitable society but are unsure how to take the first step to make that happen. We all have habits we need to break, biases we need to actively fight and silence we need to end.

As a leader who really cares, I feel the responsibility to not just talk about Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, but to make meaningful changes and contributions through my own actions and how we operate at 23andMe. Our management team, Board and employee base must have greater diversity. I am ashamed to say I do not have a single black employee who is at Director level or above. Our product is euro-centric but must expand to be inclusive and equitable. We absolutely have the potential to be better. Despite our efforts, I have to honestly say that we are also part of the problem.

I'm holding myself accountable. I'm holding 23andMe accountable. And I'm asking that our customers hold us accountable. This will include making sure that we change our hiring practices, that we make sure we give greater promotional opportunities within the company, that we dedicate resources to evolve our product to better represent all communities and that my management team and Board have more inclusive representation.

George Floyd and many others in the black community died an unjust and tragic death. I send my deepest sympathy to the families, friends and communities that are grieving. We regrettably cannot change the past but I can certainly learn from this and will do everything I can to be part of changing the future

Maniac0301
Maniac0301 HalfDork
6/2/20 2:38 p.m.

Its pretty telling that Antifa as a whole is demonized because a E36 M3 talking conservative reporter get hit in the head with a lock 4 years ago but when unarmed black people are killed weekly its just a few bad apples.   Your propaganda is showing you might wanna tuck it in.

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
6/2/20 2:40 p.m.

Much respect.  This position took guts.  I'm proud of you guys, and to be a member of your GRM family.

 

 

robmillion
robmillion New Reader
6/2/20 2:45 p.m.

thank you guys! your magazine is excellent and i look forward to every issue. i'm glad to know that you took a stand and are on the good side of this. i know people are complaining about getting politics mixed up with cars, but this isn't even about politics. it's about people. nowhere did they even mention democrats, republicans, any politicians, or even voting...just that change is needed and we need to better as a society. i agree 100%. and unless you run your own charity, none of them are going to align perfectly with your beliefs. we all do what we can (i hope) and i wish everyone was trying to make things better. 

anyway, i know i don't post much so nobody knows who i am, but i'll be resubscribing for sure! thanks again!!

iansane (Forum Supporter)
iansane (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/2/20 2:48 p.m.

GRM, thank you.

 

It was said earlier, but I think perfect is the enemy of good enough. Doing something, even if wasn't the absolutely perfect thing that everyone agreed with, is better than standing by doing nothing. Baby steps.

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
6/2/20 2:50 p.m.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to STM317 :

Ask someone who's black what was in their talk. Compare and contrast. 

See also: What "talk" does a senior boy get before prom and how is it different from the "talk" a senior girl gets?

Possibly. I was hoping that the poster I quoted might elaborate on the details of "the Talk" that his buddy gave. Maybe a non-white member here could chime in about any talks they received or might give their kids. That way we could have a clear, public compare/contrast

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 2:53 p.m.
Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter) said:
dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:
Dr. Hess (Forum Supporter) said:

GRM goes to a lot of trouble to keep politics off the board.  Then flounders the entire organization with a hate group named SPLC. 

  •    Ignorant
  •    Stupid
  •    Really believes in the evil promoted by SPLC and desires to support it

Which is it?

 

Don't be a jerk. Discussion is one thing but calling them "ignorant, stupid, or evil" is beyond the pale and not reasonable discussion. You're letting your reactionary show.

Which are you?

Oooooh, sick burn!

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 3:10 p.m.

So who wants to take bets on how many of the first-time posters in this thread are actually subscribers vs. bad actors on behalf of an adversary?

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 3:14 p.m.
penultimeta said:

Archbishop Desmond Tutu said "Those who stay neutral in situations of injustice have chosen the side of the oppressor" and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said that "There comes a time when silence is betrayal". Thank you GRM staff for speaking out and choosing the side of humanity.  

I heard it said that it's either racist, or anti-racist. 

And BTW, addressing a different post, some of us boomers (and our parents before us) have been fighting this fight for a long time. 

 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 3:16 p.m.
Jerry From LA said:
 

All lives matter , 

They do.  However, this week is all about the black ones because that needs the attention.  Just because people yell "Save the whales!" this week  doesn't mean "berkeley the dolphins!"

 

Yeah, but just wait til next week.  Man I berkeleying *hate* dolphins!

Dave M (Forum Supporter)
Dave M (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
6/2/20 3:16 p.m.

In reply to Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) :

You mean Russkies? Man, we're in trouble if they're coming for the GRM forums. They can reach tens of people, maybe even dozens!

Dave M (Forum Supporter)
Dave M (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
6/2/20 3:17 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
Jerry From LA said:
 

All lives matter , 

They do.  However, this week is all about the black ones because that needs the attention.  Just because people yell "Save the whales!" this week  doesn't mean "berkeley the dolphins!"

 

Yeah, but just wait til next week.  Man I berkeleying *hate* dolphins!

Tastes like chicken!

CrackersBoy
CrackersBoy New Reader
6/2/20 3:18 p.m.

As AnthonyGS hinted at...  

 

This wasn't about race.  George Floyd was the result of qualified immunity and public sector unions.

 

GRM should donate their July Facebook Marketing budget to... the Libertarian Party?

 

CB

iansane (Forum Supporter)
iansane (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/2/20 3:19 p.m.
STM317 said:
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to STM317 :

Ask someone who's black what was in their talk. Compare and contrast. 

See also: What "talk" does a senior boy get before prom and how is it different from the "talk" a senior girl gets?

Possibly. I was hoping that the poster I quoted might elaborate on the details of "the Talk" that his buddy gave. Maybe a non-white member here could chime in about any talks they received or might give their kids. That way we could have a clear, public compare/contrast

I'm about as white as they come and my mother gave me a similar talk but that's because she was a federal agent and knew I was going to accrue a sizable number of driving infractions. So, as to lessen the likelihood of being skewered by the courts she advised me to always be calm, slow moving and respectful. I don't think for a second she though I was going to receive any physical/emotional/psychological harm.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
6/2/20 3:21 p.m.
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

So who wants to take bets on how many of the first-time posters in this thread are actually subscribers vs. bad actors on behalf of an adversary?

I suspect almost all of them are long-time subscribers/forum users that created a new account, so they could voice their dissent without it being tied to the persona we "know."

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
6/2/20 3:25 p.m.
LarsBrunkhorst said:

While I don't post much I have been a dedicated reader of the site for the last couple years, this was the last thing I expected to see on a site that has done a great job of staying on topic over the last couple years.

Being younger than most on this board probably gives me a different perspective but there were three things I felt reading all of these replies;

1. Tom, Margie and more people than I would have guessed are not only looking forward to a brighter future, but also doing something about it, and as a younger individual that brings me great joy. Unfortunately no good deed goes unpunished, and people will find issue with anything.

2. Boomers gonna boom.

3. Some of the veiled language and implied ideas being put forth by some posters have no place at ANY car race/event/show/gathering etc. I can tell you that unless the average age is above 50 you will never hear anything of the sort. (also see #2)

Maybe I'm painting with a broad stroke but what do I know? I'll be in the corner enjoying my tide pod smoothie...

 

P.S. You gained a subscriber for life!

Good to know your hate is limited to just boomers, or maybe just a couple other groups roo.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 3:25 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

So who wants to take bets on how many of the first-time posters in this thread are actually subscribers vs. bad actors on behalf of an adversary?

I suspect almost all of them are long-time subscribers/forum users that created a new account, so they could voice their dissent without it being tied to the persona we "know."

That seems likely.

Maniac0301
Maniac0301 HalfDork
6/2/20 3:27 p.m.

In reply to STM317 :

It was a while ago and I fear I may not do it justice or even overcorrect the other way.  I would prefer someone with the actual generational familial experience expose you to it..   I did have a similar talk about law enforcement to the one you describe growing up, I even reference it in my story.  The talk that happens amongst black families came from such a different place that it shook me.   Like I said I didn't believe him at first it was so anathema to the way I saw my country.   It took a long time and many other people with similar stories for me to realize the truth of their experience.  

Recently on Facebook a fairly well known rally instructor relayed a story about his arrival to America.   He mentioned that one of the things that struck him was just the outright racism he saw towards minorities.   This is someone who had the advantage of coming in without the decades of normalization that white people in the US don't even notice.  He came in not looking for it but found it anyway.  There are racial issues that are extremely hard to see if you grew up around them.  

steronz
steronz Reader
6/2/20 3:48 p.m.
RALLYRS said:

I also  posted some liberal links calling out Antifa too,because I knew exactly what your response would be. But of course,crickets.. concerning Vox and R.S.

Antifa scumbags,just like like neo Nazis and racists on the other side-don't get a pass to physically attack people just for disagreeing with them.

Eff Antifa and anyone who supports them-directly or indirectly.

Of course, the problem with Antifa, as awful and scary as you make them sound, is this -- who do I go to to demand that they change their tactics?  Where do I go to find a list of their members?  Their weekly/monthly/annual publications?  Where do they hold their annual meetings where they discuss their official platform?  What support do they have from any mainstream political parties?  What candidates have run under an Antifa banner?

Antifa barely exists.  For all I know it's 20 people who have shown up at a few protests and hit somebody with a rock once.  I could print out all of the reporting that conservative media has done on Antifa, stack it up, and it would probably be taller than if I took all the self-professed Antifa members and stood them on top of each other.

Antifa is a boogeyman.  They exist more in the fears and the concerns of conservatives than they do in actual life.  On the other hand, white nationalists have organizations, with elected leaders.  They have publications, websites, and organization.  They have politicians who run for office as self-avowed white nationalists.  A lot of times two people can get together and agree -- Antifa is bad, and white nationalists are bad.  But then go their separate ways and lose sleep over differnet ones.  Why is that?  Why lose sleep over Antifa when white nationalists seem to be a much bigger problem?

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 3:49 p.m.
Dave M (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) :

You mean Russkies? Man, we're in trouble if they're coming for the GRM forums. They can reach tens of people, maybe even dozens!

Look at how many spammer accounts continually pop up here. All it takes is an automated search for "George Floyd" to find this thread & let the AI do the trolling. It's so prevalent on social media there's no reason they wouldn't target an active group like this one. 

chada75
chada75 Reader
6/2/20 3:57 p.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Don't give the Media any ideas. Dolphins are too nice to be portray as Boogeymen.

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
6/2/20 3:57 p.m.
Maniac0301 said:

In reply to STM317 :

It was a while ago and I fear I may not do it justice or even overcorrect the other way.  I would prefer someone with the actual generational familial experience expose you to it..   I did have a similar talk about law enforcement to the one you describe growing up, I even reference it in my story.  The talk that happens amongst black families came from such a different place that it shook me.   Like I said I didn't believe him at first it was so anathema to the way I saw my country.   It took a long time and many other people with similar stories for me to realize the truth of their experience.  

Recently on Facebook a fairly well known rally instructor relayed a story about his arrival to America.   He mentioned that one of the things that struck him was just the outright racism he saw towards minorities.   This is someone who had the advantage of coming in without the decades of normalization that white people in the US don't even notice.  He came in not looking for it but found it anyway.  There are racial issues that are extremely hard to see if you grew up around them.  

 

Yeah our talks have a little extra on them add in personal experiences and stories. And boy do I have some stories to tell! 

My roommate is a black man from the island, he came here in his early 20's and was shocked at the racism he seen upon arrival. He was in college in London before he moved to America for work. He isn't a stranger to racism at all but racism hits differently here in The Land of Freedom and Equal Opportunity. 

jackwagon
jackwagon New Reader
6/2/20 3:59 p.m.

Hi. I'm sometimes politically uninformed and had never even heard of the SLPC until today. So I learned something today. Thank you. Many of you have strong convictions and I solute you for that.

As for me, I am aware I have little constructive input to offer (as my username would suggest), so I'd like to quote the great Walter Eckland:

"Several years ago, I made peace with the World. Now, if the World isn't bright enough to make peace with itself, it's just going to have to settle things without me."

Now who wants to come check out all my broken cars?

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
6/2/20 4:00 p.m.

I got off this website at just the right time. 

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 4:11 p.m.
Trackmouse said:

I got off this website at just the right time. 

You're obviously still here.  

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Reader
6/2/20 4:25 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

So who wants to take bets on how many of the first-time posters in this thread are actually subscribers vs. bad actors on behalf of an adversary?

I suspect almost all of them are long-time subscribers/forum users that created a new account, so they could voice their dissent without it being tied to the persona we "know."

I think so too. Cowards.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
6/2/20 4:31 p.m.

I just went and made a donation to the SPLC because of this thread. 

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
6/2/20 4:32 p.m.
steronz said:

Of course, the problem with Antifa, as awful and scary as you make them sound, is this -- who do I go to to demand that they change their tactics?  Where do I go to find a list of their members?  Their weekly/monthly/annual publications?  Where do they hold their annual meetings where they discuss their official platform?  What support do they have from any mainstream political parties?  What candidates have run under an Antifa banner?

Antifa barely exists.  For all I know it's 20 people who have shown up at a few protests and hit somebody with a rock once.  I could print out all of the reporting that conservative media has done on Antifa, stack it up, and it would probably be taller than if I took all the self-professed Antifa members and stood them on top of each other.

Antifa is a boogeyman.  They exist more in the fears and the concerns of conservatives than they do in actual life.  On the other hand, white nationalists have organizations, with elected leaders.  They have publications, websites, and organization.  They have politicians who run for office as self-avowed white nationalists.  A lot of times two people can get together and agree -- Antifa is bad, and white nationalists are bad.  But then go their separate ways and lose sleep over differnet ones.  Why is that?  Why lose sleep over Antifa when white nationalists seem to be a much bigger problem?

I was listening to a podcast recently that had a couple of people who claimed to participate in anti fascist activities and for the most part it's a lot of online work doxing bad people who are doing bad things. On top of that, categorizing different hate groups and documenting their activities.

LarsBrunkhorst
LarsBrunkhorst New Reader
6/2/20 4:35 p.m.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

Then by my definition you would be exempt from that status, caring about others doesn't go along with the traditional Boomer values of "I've got mine"

ALAN HENDERSON
ALAN HENDERSON New Reader
6/2/20 4:51 p.m.

"So who wants to take bets on how many of the first-time posters in this thread are actually subscribers vs. bad actors on behalf of an adversary?

I suspect almost all of them are long-time subscribers/forum users that created a new account, so they could voice their dissent without it being tied to the persona we "know."

I think so too. Cowards."

 

 

 

Or maybe they are a first time commentor but a long time subscriber, event participant and organizer, with the shirts and GRM stickers on their cars  and a pissed off attitude about everything becoming about about race and politics.

 

(about "race". Get it? Ha!)

LarsBrunkhorst
LarsBrunkhorst New Reader
6/2/20 4:54 p.m.

In reply to L5wolvesf :

You're right, I hate bigots.

I hate entitled "adults" that think because they grew up in a certain environment they can act with impunity.

I hate people who look down on those less fortunate.

I hate people that pick and choose to use religion as a crutch only when it suits them.

I hate people that lie to your face about their feelings toward you.

I hate anyone that believes they are better than someone else for reasons they cannot control.

Most importantly, I hate cowards. We all know how you really feel, what you really want to say. The things I'm 100% positive you "joke" about with your buddies over some beers. Stop hiding behind veiled statements and washed rhetoric. 

Why is wanting the world to be a better place such a problem?

Being empathetic is the most human thing we can do, you look into your neighbor's bowl to see if they have some, not to see if they have more than you.

 

 

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
6/2/20 5:01 p.m.
LarsBrunkhorst said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

You're right, I hate bigots.

I hate entitled "adults" that think because they grew up in a certain environment they can act with impunity.

I hate people who look down on those less fortunate.

I hate people that pick and choose to use religion as a crutch only when it suits them.

I hate people that lie to your face about their feelings toward you.

I hate anyone that believes they are better than someone else for reasons they cannot control.

Most importantly, I hate cowards. We all know how you really feel, what you really want to say. The things I'm 100% positive you "joke" about with your buddies over some beers. Stop hiding behind veiled statements and washed rhetoric. 

Why is wanting the world to be a better place such a problem?

Being empathetic is the most human thing we can do, you look into your neighbor's bowl to see if they have some, not to see if they have more than you.

 

 

 

You put that one on a tee.

The reason people are against the betterment of others is because they view it as money/property/resources they aren't getting for themselves.

 

It's really that simple.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 5:18 p.m.
ALAN HENDERSON said:

"So who wants to take bets on how many of the first-time posters in this thread are actually subscribers vs. bad actors on behalf of an adversary?

I suspect almost all of them are long-time subscribers/forum users that created a new account, so they could voice their dissent without it being tied to the persona we "know."

I think so too. Cowards."

 

 

 

Or maybe they are a first time commentor but a long time subscriber, event participant and organizer, with the shirts and GRM stickers on their cars  and a pissed off attitude about everything becoming about about race and politics.

 

(about "race". Get it? Ha!)

I like to piss on sockpuppets. It's about as pissed as I get. It's better to piss on than get pissed off. 

 

LarsBrunkhorst
LarsBrunkhorst New Reader
6/2/20 5:20 p.m.

In reply to Rowdy_Trickle :

Weird its almost like you and your like are the minority here....

bigben
bigben Reader
6/2/20 5:20 p.m.

Okay. I can't keep up with this thread and my day job so I skipped to the end.

By now we should be through venting,  bickering, and arguing about our disagreements.

I have not seen a single post that leads me to believe that any of us condone hatred, violence, and racism, but we have some very strong opinions about how we should or shouldn't use our resources to help improve the situation and bring respect and fair treatment to all regardless of color, creed, race, religion, age, sex, economic status, etc.

Can we now put these arguments aside and instead focus on our common ground? We are a community and should appreciate each other's diversity not be offended by it. 

It's time to shift gears in this discussion and move it towards what we can do together to promote peace in our communities, to change the attitudes and misconceptions that lead to racism, demeaning speech, and hatred for our fellows. 

What will we do together (besides type a bunch of words in a crazy long thread)?

Will we use our passion as gearheads to teach valuable skills to under priveledged youth?

Will we go volunteer our time to rebuild areas of cities that have been destroyed by rioting?

Will we go out and get to know our neighbors and associate with people who are different from us?

What will our action be?

 

We rallied to put an add in the magazine, surely we can rally together to do something of greater worth!

Carbon (Forum Supporter)
Carbon (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 5:34 p.m.

Im do dismayed by this thread. I've seen this forum do such wonderful things for each other. To see it devolve into this is heartbreaking. I thought the point of all of this was to decrease hate, that is not what is happening to us. This is not in my opinion an accident, I think that there are people who benefit from division, from angst, and fear.

They are winning. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/2/20 5:37 p.m.

In reply to Snowdoggie :

One day long ago, something moved you to make your first post here.  Eventually, you quit posting. Now you're back.

Since you've been back, you've done a lot of name-calling.

Don49 (Forum Supporter)
Don49 (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/2/20 5:47 p.m.

I will repeat a quote I heard a long time ago. " If you are not working on the solution, you are a part of the problem".

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 5:51 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Snowdoggie :

One day long ago, something moved you to make your first post here.  Eventually, you quit posting. Now you're back.

Since you've been back, you've done a lot of name-calling.

Pissing isn't name calling. 

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) MegaDork
6/2/20 5:58 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

So who wants to take bets on how many of the first-time posters in this thread are actually subscribers vs. bad actors on behalf of an adversary?

I suspect almost all of them are long-time subscribers/forum users that created a new account, so they could voice their dissent without it being tied to the persona we "know."


I have an opinion on that. I'll never use a throw-away account, and I post under my real name so that anything I say is tied to my person. It helps me not to post dumb crap most of the time. If I say something on this forum, I'll say it in person, too. If I say some dumb crap, it's probably because I didn't realize how dumb it was going to sound or (and this still happens from time to time) I was just ignorant or misinformed about something.

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
6/2/20 6:00 p.m.

In reply to LarsBrunkhorst :

Here is what little you and I have in common. I hate bigotry, entitled people, and people who look down on others.

 

To your question: Why is wanting the world to be a better place such a problem?

It is your assumption that I don’t want the world to be a better place or that I haven’t done anything to help others. It is your assumption, and ignorance, that people of just one generation created the problems of racism, sexism, religious intolerance, economic inequities, and many other forms of discrimination. Those things have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years. You in your entitled ignorance chose just one generation. Those things make you part of continuing the problem.

 

Look into a mirror; you will find a hateful person, who knows little if anything about me. You feel entitled to make ignorant assumptions because your generation thinks they are better and looks down on boomers etc and has proclaimed themselves to be better than everyone else.

People who proclaimed themselves to be better than everyone else form the basis of; racism, sexism, religious intolerance, economic inequities, etc.

 

You have answered something I had wondered about – why people disparage the post-boomer generation(s).

 

You are what you hate and a pompus ass.

ALAN HENDERSON
ALAN HENDERSON New Reader
6/2/20 6:06 p.m.

In reply to Snowdoggie :

Oh so your nic is not a sock? Why don't you use your real name puppet?

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 6:07 p.m.
ALAN HENDERSON said:

In reply to Snowdoggie :

Oh so your nic is not a sock? Why don't you use your real name puppet?

Right after you post your address and phone number. 

But if you really want to stalk me, I have raced in the Challenge before and a picture of my car has been in the magazine. 

 

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
6/2/20 6:30 p.m.
RALLYRS said:
MrFancypants said:
RALLYRS said:

So Antifa is just "people standing up to white supremacist wackos, are they?

Tell that to Journalist Andy Ngo. Some of your nice "Anti Facist"(yeah right!)buddies put him in the hospital for the crime of being a conservative and filming them with a go pro. And he is obviously not even White.

 

If you are speaking out against ANTIFA, then you are FA.

Andy Ngo isn't a journalist.  He's a fascist who makes a living out of twisting reality and posting lies on the internet.  He's constantly posting pictures and videos of violence on Twitter and labelling it "ANTIFA" even when it clearly is not that.

 

 

Well,I don't know what "FA" is,but I'll go out on a limb and guess it's a facist American.

Right,speaking out against people who dress up in black, load up their backpack with weapons, and go out to physically attack people who disagree with them,especially white people..well that's a bad thing.

Just let them bust heads! Just like the Nazi's on the other side do!  Logic Fail.  Violence on either side is bad and Antifa are thugs who deserve what they get coming back to them period.

And if you are one of them you deserve what you get too. Again I condemn the violence on both sides. The leftist side DOES NOT get a pass here-PERIOD.

FA = fascist

Would you kindly link me to this confirmed ANTIFA violence you hate so much?  How many murders or even assault convictions do people hailing as ANTIFA have to their name?

You're angry at something that doesn't exist.

Maniac0301
Maniac0301 HalfDork
6/2/20 6:55 p.m.

Mods I think now is the time to close the thread.   Egos are now involved and people are getting festy.   

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
6/2/20 6:56 p.m.

I could really go for a Boston creme pie.

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
6/2/20 7:07 p.m.

I'm copying and pasting my post from a different thread. Call me whatever you want at this point I don't care. 
 

 

 

 

Well I took my cool off period for the day but berkeley it here we go.

I don't mean that one cop is or isn't a racist. And that cops don't abuse their power towards people because they're racist. I'm stating the fact there is a over all major narrative going on feeding our country bullE36 M3 to outrage us and divide our country .

https://intelligence.house.gov/social-media-content/

Secondly have you sat down and talked with any black people? I've had a lot this past week. 90% of them admitted any interactions they've had with authorities they didn't feel discriminated against. The others felt like they were, but were not dragged from vehicles and beat. Maybe Texas really is just friendlier.

When I ask the question on where does racism come into play. It's 50/50. Several people admitted well that's what I saw on FB or the news. Others from hearing about racist acts and that's just how they feel. 
One thing every black person I talk to about this issue hates what's going on now. They see a bunch of pissed off white people trying to stand up for them but are doing the opposite and bringing them down. 

Most of my black relatives/friend I've shown these threads to think it's humorous all these white people know whats best for them. "They're all against racism and lives matter and all of y'all are still fighting!?!?

Except for the part I should die in a fire, they questioned the hate behind that one coming from a person against hate. But hey we're here to stand against violence. 
 

What no one talking about is how to make black lives better. Racism is one thing, but there's still other underling problems. You think the term "made it out the hood" is just something some people say? 
Who's standing up to correct the horrible inner city issues we have in this country? We're people are born into E36 M3 poverty and no way out. E36 M3ty education, E36 M3ty jobs, just unfortunately born into repeated cycle. 
Did you know Kevin Hart is starting a program to teaching financials and how to get ahead in life  to black people in these areas? 

E36 M3, Dr Rhonda Patrick released a study about why black people were more likely to catch the virus, and tips for prevention. But  was automatically called racist instead of actually listening to her data. Why, she's trying to help, but it retained to black people so it's racist right??

And we can go on with horrible things others go thru that no one talks about. 
Do you know how bad Jewish people are still treated to this day? Why don't we all hold every German person accountable for what their "race" has done. How about the other countries that treated them the same?

Our military and others  for ages have done some horrific acts. You think that rape scene from platoon is made up? How many civilians are caught up in atrocities of bombings. E36 M3s unfortunate, But that's not what the fb,news, twitter whatever fills your phone with so you don't care about those people. 

I did not come here pointing fingers, insulting and trying to start a fight. But it's what us people do. 

So what can we do? 
Anyone out there going to their local council meetings? Anyone actually paying attention to elections? Not presidential, but truly local. Do you know who's on your city board and whats their intentions? I am because that's where change can happen. 

We're all people, and are entitled to our own opinion.  But I'm berkeleying sick and tired of a narrative being pushed, people rallying behind it, and thinking screaming and yelling is going to fix a problem. 
Be active, get to know people, and actually find a way to make real changes. 

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
6/2/20 7:09 p.m.
Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/2/20 7:15 p.m.

Anybody opposed to locking this thread at 10pm ET? We opened the floor, people had their say, and now it might be time to refocus the discussion. 

Dave M (Forum Supporter)
Dave M (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
6/2/20 7:24 p.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Once again, kudos to you for being complete adults here. Frankly, the padded room of this thread wasn't too bad!

79rex
79rex Reader
6/2/20 7:27 p.m.

Everyone seems to have put there opinion out here.  And you guys let the it go on plenty.  Props for staying and answering all the comments.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
6/2/20 7:27 p.m.

Edit. Deleted my post.  Really trying to stay out of these.

pirate
pirate HalfDork
6/2/20 7:27 p.m.
LarsBrunkhorst said:

While I don't post much I have been a dedicated reader of the site for the last couple years, this was the last thing I expected to see on a site that has done a great job of staying on topic over the last couple years.

Being younger than most on this board probably gives me a different perspective but there were three things I felt reading all of these replies;

1. Tom, Margie and more people than I would have guessed are not only looking forward to a brighter future, but also doing something about it, and as a younger individual that brings me great joy. Unfortunately no good deed goes unpunished, and people will find issue with anything.

2. Boomers gonna boom.

3. Some of the veiled language and implied ideas being put forth by some posters have no place at ANY car race/event/show/gathering etc. I can tell you that unless the average age is above 50 you will never hear anything of the sort. (also see #2)

Maybe I'm painting with a broad stroke but what do I know? I'll be in the corner enjoying my tide pod smoothie...

Of course youth is always smarter, is always right about everything, has better ideas, etc. then in this case baby boomers. That's why you need to get out effect change as much as possible before sooner then you think you will become a dumb ass by those younger then you.

I would like to say I applaud GRM for their conviction and statement regarding equality. I also am not convinced that the SPLC was the best choice for a donation but respect GRM's right to do so. At least they are not just standing on the side line as I suspect many are. What George Floyd went through and the end result was horrific. I don't think any reasonable human being denies that. Those responsible should all be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

I am a 74 year old white male, very conservative and yes believe in all those things that would classify me to be ignorant, a racist or bigot by those on the left. But I am not any of those things. I have seen the United States through the eyes of post WWII teen through the eyes as a US Marine, through the eyes of a labor union member, through the eyes of of a middle management manager and through the eyes of a self employed business owner. I now see the US through the eyes as a retired senior citizen and don't like what I'm seeing. Never before have I seen this nation as divided as it is now. Much of it along political lines. People attack other people's character with half truths, tell out and out lies and use any other means to get their point across. What ever happened to honor and civility toward others even if you don't agree.

If we really want to eliminate racism in his country (I'm convinced not everyone wants to) it will not happen from the government, politicians who's only interest is re-election, black or white organizations, riots or protests. Eliminating racism will come at the individual level when we all believe enough is enough and start listening more then we speak, start treating each other differently and taking responsibility for our actions. We must focus on eliminating white on black, black on white and black on black crime which creates so much fear, hopelessness and division. Not an easy task and certainly not one that will be accomplished as soon as everyone would like.

 

 

LarsBrunkhorst
LarsBrunkhorst New Reader
6/2/20 7:37 p.m.

In reply to L5wolvesf :

You're goddam right I think my generation is better, because this is how you people react, with name calling, slurs, etc. Whose the little snowflake now? I'm sorry, did I hurt your fee fee's for pointing out youre yelling at someone for doing a good thing?

Why do you have such an issue with how GRM has gone about trying help? Because they didnt consult you on which charity they should donate to? How about "Hey guys thanks for doing this it means a lot, maybe next time we can try these charities because I think they might be more effective". But no, theres no rational responses, nothing constructive, its thinly veiled garbage. We're done with it.

And youre right, problems with discrimination of all kinds have been around for a long time,but guess what, we have reached a time and place in society where there are no excuses anymore. You have the whole internet at your finger tips, you can learn as much as you want, day after day. You can see how people from all walks of life, live and interact, you can experience so many things, video chat with someone on the other side of the planet. There are no excuses for this behavior anymore.

You want to get into facts? You want evidence? Pointless against you people, brainwashed by 60 years of propaganda and false rhetoric, youll yell "fake news" and point us to a BS Facebook article while at the same time asking us whats wrong with your "email" cause you opened another attachement from an unknown sender.

The overwhelming majority of those that are outwardly racist/sexist/etc. are older, you can't say otherwise. You make excuses, you come up with strawman arguments, you project. It's insulting to anyone with half a brain. I'm continuing the problem because I said were done with acting like this?

You know what you call someone who isnt racist, who doesnt think its such a problem for people to want a better life? Someone who doesnt mind helping out where and when they can simply because they have empathy? A good person.

Being a Boomer is not about an age demographic, its a disease of the mind.

I dont have to pretend to be better, I know my generation is better, because we get it, and y'all dont.

 

dxman92
dxman92 HalfDork
6/2/20 7:44 p.m.

All I will contribute to this is a phrase from Honest Abe Lincoln:

You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/2/20 7:52 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

Anybody opposed to locking this thread at 10pm ET? We opened the floor, people had their say, and now it might be time to refocus the discussion. 

Hot sauce. We need to turn this thread into another thread about hot sauce. I like mine spicy and Cajun.

stuart in mn
stuart in mn MegaDork
6/2/20 7:54 p.m.

Whenever I see the words "you people..." in a post, I think of the old standby cartoon:

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
6/2/20 7:58 p.m.
LarsBrunkhorst said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

You're goddam right I think my generation is better, because this is how you people react, with name calling, slurs, etc. Whose the little snowflake now? I'm sorry, did I hurt your fee fee's for pointing out youre yelling at someone for doing a good thing?

 

Learn to read dumbass

L5wolvesf said:
Staff of Motorsport Marketing, Inc. said:

We stand against racism. We stand against violence. We stand for inclusion. We stand for a free press. We stand for speaking out, together.

This I agree with 100%.

I find it interesting that none of those who don't like the SPLC have not provided any links to their claims. 

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
6/2/20 8:08 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

I was going to post this earlier in response since the floor was opened . . . But I was called out by a clown who can’t comprehend words. Anyway . . .

 

Good informative and thought out post Anthony. We agree on some things differ in others my positions are in bold.

 

Politics: I hate it because I hate dishonest, corrupt, deceitful people, which is what 99% of politicians, and those in the political arena, are. That includes any and all political parties – federal and state. It is about controlling people not “being of service” to the citizenry. IMO, politicians use ‘divide and conquer’ tactics to gain power – being racist is part of the dividing of people who should be united. Saying the United States has been replaced by saying America.

 

Religion: the organized types – the name or beliefs don’t really matter. Like politics it is about controlling people not “being of service”. It is also a tool for politicians. It is part of the foundation of hate and intolerance. It starts with, ‘my god is better that your god’.

 

Education: Factually educated people are a threat to politicians and religions. So education gets defunded and shifted to religious groups. The citizenry over time has become increasingly ignorant. And here we are.

 

1) Abortion, your body your choice. You decide with your partner, family, leaders etc. Agreed but only to this point. Don't lay your murderous ways at my feet though.

 

2) LGBTQ. Again your body, your choice. I really don't care. I don't choose to participate, but that's my choice. Agreed

 

3) Budget: Yah conservative as all get out; balance it baby. Add 100% transparency and accountability on a criminal prosecutorial level.

 

4) Military: I served 10 years. I chose to never work in the defense industry after for good reasons. I also have come to realize this country was never intended to have a large standing military force, because it is too dangerous.

 

I haven’t served, draft ended about the time I was old enough (Vietnam), not sure if I would have gone. Interesting point re “never intended to have a large standing military force, because it is too dangerous.” What would we (the US) have done about WWII?

 

5) Drugs: These people need help. Locking them away in prison is not helpful, unless you are trying to train career criminals. Prison is like a PhD for crime. Legalize marijuana. I wish people were using this more now; less violence more munchies. Agreed, I personally don’t use marijuana.

 

Prisons have also become a business politicians profit from and they do a terrible job at what they are supposed to do with criminals – keep them incarcerated in accordance with the laws of this country. Our criminal justice system has effectively failed too.

 

6) Racism. By and large this is an education and child abuse issue. It is a taught, learned behavior. Agreed

 

I feel the SPLC is complicit in this and is the problem and not the solution.

SPLC: Their charity ratings say they do well. Their enemies (groups who hate) hate them – not surprising. Are there problems yes, no organization, or person, is perfect. I haven’t see/heard of another or better organization that does what they do.

 

I have never seen a racist child, ever. I've seen racist teens and adults my entire life and seen racist societies. It was learned. It is the lowest common denominator of human intelligence and is used as a tool to control and destroy. Agreed, and see my comments on education.

 

7) Gun control: It's a tool. Learn to use it properly; your life could depend on it. Also the worlds "shall not be infringed," have absolutely zero to do with hunting. I should be able to own an M1 Abrams tank and park it in my driveway if I can afford it, as it falls under "arms" as in armaments. And armed population is far more valuable (and polite) and safe than any standing army.

We were given the right to bear arms for when the government(s) become oppressive and or unconstitutional. There is a lot of video, and other forms of evidence, from politicians and law enforcement officers, that indicates we’re there.

 

Fascism: as defined by

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

 

Neither of those definitions work within the Constitution of the United States. Given those definitions I am anti fascist. I am also anti Nazi, anti authoritarian/dictatorship, anti racist, anti violence,  

 

I'm hardly conservative, by any means. Agreed

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
6/2/20 8:11 p.m.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

In reply to MrFancypants :

https://www.kvue.com/mobile/article/news/local/antifa-austin-target-looting-protests-dps/269-547a9c6a-9fe7-4ec7-9cee-0b986a76c43f

I'm looking and not finding what I requested.  No convictions, no specific criminal charges.  Hearsay.

AAZCD (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/2/20 8:19 p.m.

TIL many of the members of the forum are not real people. Most of the ones I know are real have the same first name, "Patrick".

bigben
bigben Reader
6/2/20 8:24 p.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

I tried to pass the baton and get this going in a productive direction, but apparently I dropped it instead too bad.

Vehement people on both sides of the argument here have made some good points that should be considered by the opposite side. It's too bad that it's easier to be blinded and deaf by our own pride than it is to learn from someone who we think we disagree with.

I'm convinced much of the strife we see today is not a result of bad people, only bad communicators. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
6/2/20 8:33 p.m.

In reply to LarsBrunkhorst :

You're goddam right I think my generation is better, because this is how you people react, with name calling, slurs, etc. Whose the little snowflake now? I'm sorry, did I hurt your fee fee's for pointing out youre yelling at someone for doing a good thing?

Quite the rant. Haven't learned anything from this thread, have you?

Really? Using the phrase "You people!" 

We stood up against the war in Vietnam, and some of us died for that. Kent State.

We  went to register voters and some of us died for that. Neshoba county, Mississippi.

My brother and I were the plantifs in the Federal lawsuit that finally desegregated the schools in our county. We had a berkeleying cross burned on our lawn. 

And we're not unique! 

Trash a whole group of people according to your personal prejudice, and you don't see the irony in doing it on this discussion? 

We stand against racism. We stand against violence. We stand for inclusion. We stand for a free press. We stand for speaking out, together.

 

Thank you GRM for taking a stand-I couldn't be more proud to be a supporter of the magazine.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
6/2/20 8:42 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

Anybody opposed to locking this thread at 10pm ET? We opened the floor, people had their say, and now it might be time to refocus the discussion. 

Probably wise Tom.  Some people need to take a step back and reflect a bit. Try to understand and respect each other's views. 

 

Had a good conversation with a conservative friend of mine yesterday before all the military involvement stuff went down. He began rather outspoken about rioting and destruction. Was hyper focused on that as a bad thing. I asked him what he proposed they do. At every turn, he suggested things that have been tried for decades and got nowhere or got somewhere to just be battled and erased or achieve little to no lasting change. He began to understand that these violent acts are acts of frustration. The what would you do question got him to see the corner they are painted into. Violent destruction isn't right, we all can agree. But it's better to take a step back and try to understand why we are here. Many if not most of us would agree from there, escalation isn't the answer to stop the rioting and it doesn't bode well for any lasting change.

 

Guys, cool down. Achieve peace in your mind before responding. Angry slapbacks won't accomplish anything. 

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
6/2/20 8:49 p.m.

Yes for god sakes lock this thread.

759NRNG (Forum Partidario)
759NRNG (Forum Partidario) UltraDork
6/2/20 8:49 p.m.

good night .....love your neighbor as your self.....the second is like unto it.....peace out

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