What’s your ultimate EV?

Colin
By Colin Wood
Sep 26, 2022 | electric, Electric Cars, ev, Discussion

Does everyone really need the ability to hit highway speeds in less than 3 seconds? What if you could trade some acceleration for range? Or maybe add in some lightness? 

If you could design the perfect EV for you, what would it look like?

Would it be as big as the new Hummer or smaller than the Ioniq 5? Luxurious with all the bells and whistles, or do you prefer a more Spartan experience? Electric Miata? 

Whatever it looks like, we’d love to hear your thoughts. (And yes, crudely drawn concepts are welcome here, too.)  

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Colin Wood
Colin Wood Associate Editor
9/23/22 10:30 a.m.

Trick question, the real answer is Citicar:

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 10:34 a.m.

Would be willing to trade some acceleration for lightness, it would have to be AWD for sure - EV torque is too much to be bottlenecked by 2 wheels. Basically I'm thinking something like an electric Celica (but with something more like a Lotus Evora profile). Individual wheel-motors in the front, one larger motor in the rear running through a shiftable transaxle for fun and improved high-speed performance. Maybe small individual wheel-motors geared to the rear axle shafts as well for improved traction?

A smaller battery with a generator-cart utility trailer could give it good range and ensure that you always reach the track with a full charge without having to haul a lot of excess equipment around.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/23/22 10:35 a.m.

Something around the size of a Honda Element with the fold up seats, flat rubber floor and at least a 3500lb towing capacity.

Colin Wood
Colin Wood Associate Editor
9/23/22 10:36 a.m.
GameboyRMH said:

A smaller battery with a generator-cart utility trailer could give it good range and ensure that you always reach the track with a full charge without having to haul a lot of excess equipment around.

I like the idea of an OEM selling something like that as a dealer-installed accessory.

Heck, maybe you could even rent one from U-Haul. 

bruceman
bruceman Reader
9/23/22 10:39 a.m.

For me it would be an SUV capable of towing the racecar to the track.

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
9/23/22 10:41 a.m.

I would love for Ford to build a Lightning with an extended cab, 8' bed, 10-second 0-60, and a 500-mile range. Strip it down, white, vinyl, minimal options. Instead, they are building a sub 5 second terror with a crew cab and not enough bed to work out of. Build me a damn service truck, not a drag truck. That's where electrics will shine. 

bruceman
bruceman Reader
9/23/22 10:58 a.m.

For me it would be an SUV capable of towing the racecar to the track.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 10:59 a.m.

In reply to Toyman! :

Remember that the drag truck is the side effect of a long range truck. Those big batteries can discharge faster, so you accidentally get ridiculous performance. If you built a 500 mile range F150 that could only do a 10 second 0-60, that's because it has very low power motors which I suspect you don't want because then that 8' bed would have to stay empty.

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/23/22 11:00 a.m.

Does the capability to go 0-100 in 5 seconds really decrease overall range? I thought that was just a byproduct of the capabilities of the installed parts and in fact not a trade-off to range capability. 

 

And GRM-folk dream EV would be able to tow 9k lbs for 500 miles without recharging while costing under $30k. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 11:01 a.m.
Colin Wood said:
GameboyRMH said:

A smaller battery with a generator-cart utility trailer could give it good range and ensure that you always reach the track with a full charge without having to haul a lot of excess equipment around.

I like the idea of an OEM selling something like that as a dealer-installed accessory.

Heck, maybe you could even rent one from U-Haul. 

The fun part here is how to get power from the trailer to the car, especially some random car.

Better would be self-propelled trailer, but then you'd have to standardize on the communication protocol. Not insurmountable but necessary.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 11:02 a.m.
yupididit said:

And GRM-folk dream EV would be able to tow 9k lbs for 500 miles without recharging while costing under $30k. 

Heck, let's see that truck regardless of powertrain type :)

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
9/23/22 11:06 a.m.

A Ioniq 5 but 7/8 scale or similar sized 4 door hatch

0-60 in <7 seconds

a Torsen diff

$25k

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/23/22 11:07 a.m.

I believe that I have said this often, but here it is again.

 

A minivan with the external form factor of the Canoo with the frunk like the F150 has with enough battery to go 300 miles and recharge as fast as a Tesla for roadtrips, airy seating for eight (not like the Canoo), 0-60 in around 6-7 seconds is fine. RWD or AWD or FWD I don't even care. I'm a buyer today at $40K.

 

Basically take Rivian and put their efforts towards hauling people affordably instead of making an amazing off road rig.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/23/22 11:08 a.m.
yupididit said:

Does the capability to go 0-100 in 5 seconds really decrease overall range? I thought that was just a byproduct of the capabilities of the installed parts and in fact not a trade-off to range capability. 

 

And GRM-folk dream EV would be able to tow 9k lbs for 500 miles without recharging while costing under $30k. 

Generally speaking the really fast EVs have multiple motors. For my use in normal driving, one is plenty.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
9/23/22 11:08 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to Toyman! :

Remember that the drag truck is the side effect of a long range truck. Those big batteries can discharge faster, so you accidentally get ridiculous performance. If you built a 500 mile range F150 that could only do a 10 second 0-60, that's because it has very low power motors which I suspect you don't want because then that 8' bed would have to stay empty.

I thought Accidental Performance would be a cool band name.

Then I decided to feed it into an AI image generator.

Accidental performance

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
9/23/22 11:08 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm putting service personnel in them. I don't care if they are slow. One motor, 2wd, and the big battery are all I need. The motor isn't going to draw more than it can. A bigger battery and small motor make for longer ranges and less chance of a service tech wrapping it around a tree. It also makes for a cheaper truck. 

My standard work truck is a Silverado 1500, standard cab, 4.3 V6. It's plenty fast enough, 9 seconds 0-60 +-. It will tow a trailer 200 miles without stopping for gas. It's cheap. Build me the electric version of that. Until then, I'm not interested. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 11:09 a.m.
yupididit said:

Does the capability to go 0-100 in 5 seconds really decrease overall range? I thought that was just a byproduct of the capabilities of the installed parts and in fact not a trade-off to range capability.

The capability to go from 0-100 quickly and have a long range actually require the same thing - a large battery pack, for discharge capability in terms of acceleration, and for overall capacity in terms of range. A supercapacitor setup might allow for improved acceleration with a smaller pack but nobody's done that yet.

There's also not much tradeoff between power and efficiency. The only things you can sacrifice to gain other things with an EV are capacity/acceleration for lightness (until supercaps are worked out), and to a slight degree range for grip (via tires).

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 11:17 a.m.
Toyman! said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm putting service personnel in them. I don't care if they are slow. One motor, 2wd, and the big battery are all I need. The motor isn't going to draw more than it can. A bigger battery and small motor make for longer ranges and less chance of a service tech wrapping it around a tree. It also makes for a cheaper truck. 

My standard work truck is a Silverado 1500, standard cab, 4.3 V6. It's plenty fast enough, 9 seconds 0-60 +-. It will tow a trailer 200 miles without stopping for gas. It's cheap. Build me the electric version of that. Until then, I'm not interested. 

I'm gonna start marketing an accelerator pedal remapper that limits acceleration to 9s 0-60 - a bit faster than a 1990 Miata.

Small motor doesn't really make for longer range (it's not like an ICE), but it does mean the truck will struggle more with a load. If you want anything in that trailer, you're going to need a motor that can move it. And if you only want the truck to do 0-60 in 9s with that hardware, it's going to need an artificial limiter. EVs work different and have different compromises, we have to get our collective heads around that. Don't assume the fast electric truck is giving something up to be fast.

Noddaz
Noddaz GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/23/22 11:19 a.m.

NA Miata with a 200 mile range (322 KM) would be the answer here.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/23/22 11:22 a.m.
Toyman! said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm putting service personnel in them. I don't care if they are slow. One motor, 2wd, and the big battery are all I need. The motor isn't going to draw more than it can. A bigger battery and small motor make for longer ranges and less chance of a service tech wrapping it around a tree. It also makes for a cheaper truck. 

My standard work truck is a Silverado 1500, standard cab, 4.3 V6. It's plenty fast enough, 9 seconds 0-60 +-. It will tow a trailer 200 miles without stopping for gas. It's cheap. Build me the electric version of that. Until then, I'm not interested. 

I agree with the bigger battery smaller motor approach. But I want fast charge times so after 2-3 hours on the road I can stop, go to the bathroom, maybe grab a bite and be back on the road in 15-20 minutes with another 150 + miles of range.   That's what I understand batteries   sweet spots are,  30% to 70%. 
 I'm not stupid enough to think I need to drive 9 or 10 hours without stopping. 
     Towing, I'll keep a light weight, very low profile. No sense in hauling a garage behind me.   Plus I'll only carry what is required to service and do basic repairs. 
  Major repairs,  the car gets hauled back on the trailer and goes home.  No more all night thrash to go out there and drive like a zombie

  I just read Kieth Tanner.   OK I'll take the bigger motor.  But I want a lighter smaller truck. Regular cab, short box.  If I want to carry something 8 foot long I'll put the tailgate down and strap it in.  Plus short is easier to park and live with.  All Aluminum  !!!   

IamFODI
IamFODI New Reader
9/23/22 11:27 a.m.

A Porsche Taycan Sport Turismo GTS with two small-to-moderate motors on the rear axle (for torque vectoring) and no motor up front.

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
9/23/22 11:27 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The fact is, it does. It takes more energy to accelerate a truck to 60 in 4 seconds than it does to accelerate the same weight to 60 in 9 seconds. That is a fact. That extra energy comes straight off the range. Also a fact. I don't give a damn how they limit it but until they do, I'm not interested. 

Wrap your head around this. Would you be willing to pull a guy off the street, strap him into a truck that is as fast, or nearly as fast as your V8 Miata, and send him out into city traffic to run service 8 hours a day, 5 days a week? I can only imagine the hit my already super-expensive commercial insurance policy would be if all of my trucks were faster than the average sports car. Hard pass. 

And probably more important. I'm not shelling out $80k for a service truck. They can build a $30k ICE truck. If they put their minds to it they can do the same with an electric. Unfortunately, that's not where the profit is. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
9/23/22 11:34 a.m.

Full electric 6 passenger that isn't crazy $

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/23/22 11:35 a.m.

In reply to Toyman! :

according to Consumer reports the average electric costs are 3.8 cents per mile. While the average ICE is 18.18 cents per mile. Now my truck gets the 22 mpg that's based on but my electric cost would be lower.  
    As for too fast?   How about a block of wood under the throttle pedal?   

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 11:36 a.m.

In reply to Toyman! :

I understand why you want to limit the performance of the truck. Heck, we have internal policies at FM as to when employees are allowed to drive some of the shop cars. I wasn't being sarcastic with that performance limiting pedal, although it would be easier for Ford (or whoever) to do it in the software.

Range is, with all vehicles, a reflection of how the vehicle is operated. If you do 4 second runs to 60 every chance you get, of course it's going to affect your range. But what I'm saying is that the ability of the truck to do that does not mean you have less range unless you use it. If your EV service truck can tow 9k lbs (or whatever) it needs a certain amount of torque. If it has to go 500 miles between stops, it will need a certain amount of battery. Combine those two and you're going to get performance whether you want it or not, which is not the usual ICE tradeoff. You don't have to use that performance, you're going to get it as a result of your other requirements unless you put an artificial limiter on it.

The "give me a small motor for efficiency because I don't care how slow it is" thinking comes from living with the tradeoffs you get from an ICE. In an EV, it's more likely to be "give me a small battery for a lower price because I don't care if the range is shorter". That's my point. Don't assume a fast truck is optimized to be fast at the expense of range or capability.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/23/22 11:44 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

A smaller motor is going to be cheaper to make, and lighter to boot, and a lone motor is cheaper to make and package than multiple motors.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
9/23/22 11:48 a.m.

500 mile range hatchback that can recharge in 5 minutes. My Yaris can essentially do that (40mpg with a 12 gallon tank, swapping out recharging with filling the tank) so if an EV can't, its not really that much of a technological improvement, in my mind. Doesn't have to be fast or have AWD or ultra-luxurious or any of that BS. Just something with long legs and short charge time.

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
9/23/22 11:50 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The difference being, I'm looking at it from the personal side of the equation instead of the equipment side. I know how service guys drive. How many times have you seen a white van or truck leave a stop light with the pedal mashed flat? How many times have they cut you off in traffic?

 The extra motor and FWD drivetrain are money spent I don't need. I don't want 4wd. Take that out to save $$$ and give me a larger battery. I want a stripped-down economical vehicle with minimal frills.

The range is not negotiable. It costs me about $75 per man hour to have one guy and a truck sitting at a charging station. The vehicle I buy is going to have to be able to charge at night and run 8 hours without stopping to charge. Some days that's not a problem. I've got three truck on the road today. Two of them are around town and probably won't do 100 miles. One is making a 275-mile loop south to work on a hospital and a library. That truck needs to be able to do that without stopping to charge. 

The industry is moving pretty quickly. I have high hopes that Ford will get around to building a longer-range service vehicle before I need to replace the current fleet in the next couple of years. We shall see. 

 

j_tso
j_tso GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
9/23/22 11:53 a.m.

Honda e with Koenigsegg's power unit.

 

I also like GM's old skateboard concpet where an EV platform could have the potential of switching bodies over it.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 11:55 a.m.

^The Koenigsegg Terrier is an excellent dual motor + inverter unit.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 12:02 p.m.
tuna55 said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

A smaller motor is going to be cheaper to make, and lighter to boot, and a lone motor is cheaper to make and package than multiple motors.

Slightly less expensive to make, sure. But I'm looking at the bigger picture. You need torque to move the rated payload. You need battery to get the range. Those are fundamental attributes. You get performance as a side effect of that torque and that battery. I don't care how many motors there are, you need that torque for a given payload.

That's all. If you don't want the performance, you'll have to give up some payload or some range or you'll have to artificially limit it. Just don't assume that because the performance isn't artificially limited that it's coming at some other cost.

How the truck is used is up to the operator. If the operator can't be trusted, then you either change the operator or you limit the truck.

This is all coming from "why is Ford building drag trucks". They're not. They're building vehicles with a payload and range they think the market wants based on a pretty substantial data set. The drag thing is a side effect. You don't lose it unless you give up something else. I'm not saying anything about whether people SHOULD buy an EV or if they're cheaper to purchase or anything like that. Just pointing out that the payload/performance/range equation looks different in an EV, so you can't judge a vehicle in quite the same way as you can with an ICE.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/23/22 12:19 p.m.
tuna55 said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

A smaller motor is going to be cheaper to make, and lighter to boot, and a lone motor is cheaper to make and package than multiple motors.

Electric motors are a lot cheaper than engines, while batteries are a lot more expensive than fuel tanks.  So yes, you'll save some money by going with a smaller, less powerful motor in an EV, but the difference won't be anywhere close to as significant as it is with ICE vehicles.  I would expect to see cost differences in the hundreds of dollars, rather than the thousands.

And that's why they aren't making low power trucks yet.  It's early days, production capacity is limited, and there is a ton more demand for Lightnings than they can meet at the moment.  You get much higher profits on the high end luxury trucks than you do on work trucks, so is it really surprising that Ford is using that capacity where it makes them the most money?

I'm sure they will get to EV work trucks eventually, but don't expect the price savings to be anywhere close to as much, not if you want the range.  That's just not how the tech works.

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 12:29 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

You'll need to look at TCO to get the savings. I don't think they'll be as cheap to buy as an equivalent (or less-than-equivalent) ICE for a long, long time. But they're less expensive to operate.

It's interesting to note that VW Europe has reported that half of the preorders for the ID Buzz (aka VW EV bus ) have been for the commercial variant with no rear seats or windows. I think they'll be really well suited to in-town delivery vehicles with known routes, as that's the sort of use an EV is best at.

Error404
Error404 HalfDork
9/23/22 12:32 p.m.

The Hyundai Vision 74(?) Is pretty cool looking in a Starion kind of way but the EV-ness of it does nothing for me. Big ole meh-burger. The conversation around EVs really seems to be happening around what people "really need" so if that were the case I would get a janky little e-bike and some Frogg Toggs gear and hang out at the 110 outlet with the cool kids. 

I'm trying not to be sarcastic when I say that the answer to what I want in an EV is that I don't. Since that answer isn't acceptable and lands me in the dismissable, noise category I guess I'd say a Vision 74 with a bumpin' system to give me something to listen to. Gauges would be cool but it will be some form of tablet, so the ability to play with gauges will give me something else to not do, I don't do it with the digital dash on the project Mustang, I don't do it on my desktop, I don't do it on my phone. I get things the way I want them and pretty much leave them alone. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 12:48 p.m.

In reply to Error404 :

You don't want to be able to reach the acceleration limits of your tires' grip at most any time with the press of a pedal? I do! I'll want it even more when more of the cars I'm competing with have that ability...

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/23/22 12:51 p.m.

In reply to Toyman! :

You want a truck that has good range and can tow too. In the EV world, that requirement results in a truck that will also have crazy acceleration. If you want the hardware to do what you require without the crazy acceleration then you need software that'll limit the acceleration of the truck so your employees don't do stupid things. But, you'll still have the hardware that's capable of extreme acceleration. They are not building drag trucks, they're building trucks that have a certain range and towing ability. They just haven't used an artificial limiter to keep the truck from being fast, that's what your right foot is for. 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/23/22 12:57 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

You'll need to look at TCO to get the savings. I don't think they'll be as cheap to buy as an equivalent (or less-than-equivalent) ICE for a long, long time. But they're less expensive to operate.

I agree.  I don't think the purchase price would ever be as low, but I can definitely see the appeal to a business owner of paying less to charge than to fuel and having significantly reduced maintenance requirements.

Someone commented earlier about wanting a $30K EV work truck, and I don't think that's going to happen.  To make up some numbers, if a luxury Lightning and a luxury gas-engined F-150 are both $70K trucks, and a gas-engined work truck is $30K, then I expect an EV work truck is probably more like $40-45K.

Error404
Error404 HalfDork
9/23/22 1:08 p.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Yes, I know that not drooling over EV performance is wrong but I can't help that the idea just doesn't do much for me. I don't need to shred tires going from 0 to 45. If I want to get a reckless driving ticket, I don't need an EV or it's monthly payment. I'm not a racer, I enjoy track days but I'm typing this from my 8-6  having not been on track at all this year. The Vision 74 at least looks neat, wheels excepted, but that's about it. I know I'm wrong thinking but I don't find any stimulus in EVs. At the same time I recognize that profitability alone makes them inevitable but I don't even get anything from current car tech craziness. So, when I have to go EV I expect that it will be an appliance decision. Put another way, I have not yet seen how an EV will enhance my driving experience unless I'm playing with the touchscreen at a charge stop.

I'll see myself out.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 1:11 p.m.
Toyman! said:

I would love for Ford to build a Lightning with an extended cab, 8' bed, 10-second 0-60, and a 500-mile range. Strip it down, white, vinyl, minimal options. Instead, they are building a sub 5 second terror with a crew cab and not enough bed to work out of. Build me a damn service truck, not a drag truck. That's where electrics will shine. 

The acceleration comes from charging speed.  The faster you can push energy into the batteries, the faster you can get it out.

 

It is a different paradigm from ICEs, for sure.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 1:21 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Business owners are better at making the TCO calculation than private owners because they're actually tracking monthly costs. That's just how people work. Tesla's tried to reflect that in their "potential savings" calculator in their website which is based on reasonable, published assumptions.  I laughed at it the first time I saw it. Now I understand why they do it.

Even Toyman's "every time I stop to charge mid-day I have to pay $75/hour" calculation may be worthwhile, and that's going to vary a lot from case to case. If it only happens twice a month for 30 minutes each time, does that $75 cost get offset by other savings elsewhere? If it happens every day for 30 minutes, you need to be saving $750/month (20 working days * 75 * 0.5) for it to be worthwhile. Can that charging stop be combined with something else, like a lunch break that's going to happen no matter what? The ability to take a step back and look at all those costs together is required.  There will be times when the answer is "yes, the way we do it and the equipment we use to do it is the best choice". But sometimes it can surprise you. For example, look at how much it costs to fill the tank in an ICE versus plugging in an EV at night. If it takes 15 minutes to stop at the gas station and fill up every day, that's $17.50/day or $375/month by the numbers we're using at the moment. And that's just the cost of the time, not the fuel.

Note that I am not campaigning for everyone to switch to EVs for all applications, I just find this sort of thing really interesting. One of the things I do at work is step back and look at those overall costs. It's not unusual to spend a bit of money to save money overall, although it can look quite counter-intuitive at times. 

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
9/23/22 1:29 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Toyman! said:

I would love for Ford to build a Lightning with an extended cab, 8' bed, 10-second 0-60, and a 500-mile range. Strip it down, white, vinyl, minimal options. Instead, they are building a sub 5 second terror with a crew cab and not enough bed to work out of. Build me a damn service truck, not a drag truck. That's where electrics will shine. 

The acceleration comes from charging speed.  The faster you can push energy into the batteries, the faster you can get it out.

 

It is a different paradigm from ICEs, for sure.

It can take up to 15 hours to charge. That shouldn't be a hard metric to hit. 

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
9/23/22 1:39 p.m.

In reply to Colin Wood :

I keep thinking about EV swapping an NC MX-5 Miata.  Would like 200 miles of range, 225 or 250 a stretch goal, 100 acceptable for first build with plan to re-battery the thing later after bugs are worked out.  Would like it to otherwise function like the original car; weigh about the same (I know this isn't possible today) or at least feel like it weighs about the same and do 0-60 at maybe 7, 7.5 seconds.  Top speed of 90 seems fine.  Just a good commuter that I could, if I wanted, take out on the road a bit.  

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 1:46 p.m.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

People have been swapping Miatas for a long time. I think I saw my first in the late 90s. FM actually sponsored a high school that built an EV NB for an FSAE-type competition against other schools a few years back - and won, I'm proud to say.

It's interesting, I used to get a lot of calls from EV builders who had swapped an NA or NB and then discovered their suspension was insufficient. Their weight distributions were all over the map, clearly they were all coming up with different solutions. Those calls dried up about the time Teslas appeared and it became obvious the lead acid battery + forklift motor on the trans solutions were obsolete.

I think an electric Miata would be a hoot. I did some rough math a while back and came up with 2800 lbs for an EV ND with 200 miles of range and mid-200 hp power levels.

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
9/23/22 1:59 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So that's, what, maybe 3000 lbs for an EV-swapped NC?  More than enough power with what you're quoting.  

This idea makes much more sense than the Capri resto I would like to be starting in the next six or so months so it will probably have to wait a while.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/23/22 1:59 p.m.
Error404 said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Yes, I know that not drooling over EV performance is wrong but I can't help that the idea just doesn't do much for me. I don't need to shred tires going from 0 to 45. If I want to get a reckless driving ticket, I don't need an EV or it's monthly payment. I'm not a racer, I enjoy track days but I'm typing this from my 8-6  having not been on track at all this year. The Vision 74 at least looks neat, wheels excepted, but that's about it. I know I'm wrong thinking but I don't find any stimulus in EVs. At the same time I recognize that profitability alone makes them inevitable but I don't even get anything from current car tech craziness. So, when I have to go EV I expect that it will be an appliance decision. Put another way, I have not yet seen how an EV will enhance my driving experience unless I'm playing with the touchscreen at a charge stop.

I'll see myself out.

You don't have to like EV's to want one. 
 All you need to want is to save money. 
   Right now a typical ICE costs 18.18 cents per mile for fuel. A typical EV cost 2.9 cents per mile . Plus no oil changes and rare if ever brake jobs. ( regenerative braking. 
  The Tesla and Volt I've driven are not dull. They are nimble enough to have fun in corners.  Plus the acceleration out of the corners is really brisk. 
    Plus they are cheap.  You can start with a new Volt on January 1amd get it for $20,700 ( using the rebate as your down payment. It will go 259 miles  on a charge. 
   Since the average person travels 31 miles per day  that's plenty of range even if you forget to plug it in or the power goes out overnight. 

Racingsnake
Racingsnake Reader
9/23/22 2:01 p.m.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

That's about the performance specs I'd like but in something old like a Corvair with minimal electronics other than those required to make the car work 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 2:11 p.m.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So that's, what, maybe 3000 lbs for an EV-swapped NC?  More than enough power with what you're quoting.  

This idea makes much more sense than the Capri resto I would like to be starting in the next six or so months so it will probably have to wait a while.

The NC has a heavier powertrain in stock form, so maybe a little less than 3000 with the same specs. It would be fun.

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
9/23/22 2:13 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Just out of curiosity, which EV do you own? 

 

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
9/23/22 2:13 p.m.

For me? Electric aerobatic biplane with 300 mile range and an empty weight of less than 1,200lbs.

When aircraft are electrified,  that's the exact moment EV has solidified for me.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
9/23/22 2:13 p.m.
tuna55 said:

I believe that I have said this often, but here it is again.

A minivan with the external form factor of the Canoo with the frunk like the F150 has with enough battery to go 300 miles and recharge as fast as a Tesla for roadtrips, airy seating for eight (not like the Canoo), 0-60 in around 6-7 seconds is fine. RWD or AWD or FWD I don't even care. I'm a buyer today at $40K.

Basically take Rivian and put their efforts towards hauling people affordably instead of making an amazing off road rig.

Seconded, again. Electric minivan would be perfect. Drive wheels don't matter. I bet it would tow great too.

Driven5
Driven5 UberDork
9/23/22 2:13 p.m.

The EV gaps I'd like to see filled:

SportEVehicle: Fun over fast for the street. Smallish, lightish, single motor, RWD-only, mechanical limited-slip, reasonably priced, sports car, moderate range, and modest tires being the primary performance limitation. Motor sizing and rudimentary throttle programming should reasonably allow driving in anger by 'enthusiast level' drivers with all other nanny programming fully disabled. Available in BREV coupe and MiatEV convertible.

MinEVan: Totally conventional except for a nothing-special by todays standards electric drivetrain.

ToEVehicle: The technology and infrastructure for this to be practical is some combination of not yet available and/or existent.

Davidh0430
Davidh0430 New Reader
9/23/22 2:55 p.m.

My EV would have a nice 5 litre V8 and a 6 speed manual transition.  I'm 83 and still enjoy driving my 97   Boxster on the street or on the track doing touring laps at Daytona.  Thank goodness I won't be around to see how EV's  and the mining for minerals to build the batteries  damages Mother Earth.  Dave

stroker
stroker PowerDork
9/23/22 3:04 p.m.

one of two concepts: The first would be a 1st Gen Scion xB and the second would be something like the Classic Motorsports Elva Mk VI...

Error404
Error404 HalfDork
9/23/22 3:10 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

My GTI is nimble enough for the corners and it's paid off. My bike is nimble everywhere, it's paid off. Not saying you're wrong with your assertions but spending $21k to save on an oil change doesn't seem like it benefits me at this point. I don't gain much for nimbleness but I do gain a bunch of features that I'm not missing. I don't want cameras, I have eyes. I don't want angry cat noises, I have a couple of those at home. So, when I have to go EV it will be a decision made on utility unless I find myself nerding out about the color range of my air duct LEDs. 

Lots of people are excited for EVs, that's neat. I'm not but thought I could weigh in on a casual discussion. 

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
9/23/22 3:34 p.m.

The Honda e with a sliding fabric sunroof might be nice.  I want to be able to enjoy some air in a run-about.

paddygarcia
paddygarcia GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/23/22 4:14 p.m.

The Taycan Sport Turismo pretty much does it for me, other than the price tag.

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/23/22 4:25 p.m.

Why isn't there a EV minivan? Seems like an easy sell. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/23/22 4:57 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

Because US consumers buy more SUVs and CUVs than minivans. Check out the top 25, there isn't a sliding door in sight: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-cars-2021/ 

But this is coming, and VW has upped their production estimates already.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
9/23/22 5:06 p.m.

Yes, there should be a people mover (6 people or more) EV.  It could also be a small freight hauler. 

The Toyota Sienna hybrid is a game changer getting 36 mpg.  If the world were different and Toyota wasn't already selling every one they make, I'd recommend they make a cargo version. 

Imagine this as a hybrid getting 36 mpg with a 1900 payload capacity or a 3500 tow rating. 

Erich
Erich UberDork
9/23/22 5:52 p.m.

I really like a lot of the characteristics of my BMW i3, it just needs normal-sized tires, a bit longer range, and faster DC charging.

I'd love something with ~200 miles of freeway range, 150 kw charging speed, and enough room for four. Something small enough to park easily in the city but not so small it's unstable on the freeway. A bit fun to drive with rear wheel drive, but it doesn't need to be fast, even 0-60 in 8 seconds is fine.

If they made it a small wagon, even better. The Ioniq 5 is close to perfect but it's too tall for my taste, and too spendy. Maybe something like a Jetta Wagon in EV form instead of diesel. $30k new after any incentives.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/23/22 6:47 p.m.
93EXCivic said:

Something around the size of a Honda Element with the fold up seats, flat rubber floor and at least a 3500lb towing capacity.

This. And on the side maybe a Rivian with a prettier face.

calteg
calteg SuperDork
9/23/22 6:48 p.m.

the most recent Volvo V70, but full EV. Volvo has needlessly complicated that wagon, I suspect a fully electric version would be much faster and more reliable. 

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia UltraDork
9/23/22 7:05 p.m.

A hybrid. Astro  Van  with 200 plus mile battery and a small 3 cyl turbo diesel if needed , 

or a 200 mile EV Astro Van that recharges in 5-10 minutes , 

Yes I do like the Astro Van size and simplicity ......

 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/23/22 7:12 p.m.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

The Honda e with a sliding fabric sunroof might be nice.  I want to be able to enjoy some air in a run-about.

I'll take one of these along with my minivan

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/23/22 7:14 p.m.

In reply to John Welsh :

I have zero interest in a hybrid minivan. I have near 100% interest in a full EV minivan

Erich
Erich UberDork
9/23/22 7:33 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

we have the plug-in Pacifica and the only complaint I have is it's a Chrysler product so who knows what the longevity will be. Where we are in Michigan there's no full electric that would do a road trip to and around the Upper Peninsula with current infrastructure, so any road tripper currently needs to be a hybrid in my opinion. This may change someday, but right now a BEV is better for interurban trips.

 

Here's the current crop of >70kw DC CCS chargers in Northern Michigan. There are currently two locations with one plug each in the UP. Not good. 

ae86andkp61 (Forum Supporter)
ae86andkp61 (Forum Supporter) Dork
9/24/22 12:34 a.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

My thoughts almost exactly. I'm on board for the SportEVehicle coupe. Small sporty RWD coupe....yes!
 

Of the concepts I've seen so far, the Alpha Ace is probably the most intriguing, and I even like the Alfa GTV/British Escort vibes, but I fear it will only be vaporware. The Hyundai 74 styling really kicks me in the feels, but it is too big and powerful IMO. Also just a concept. The styling wouldn't have to be retro, but if it isn't retro, my suggestion is to channel some scaled-down Jaguar F-Type or Aston Martin coupe, some ND Miata with a fixed top, some BRZ/GT86, and similar.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/24/22 7:24 a.m.
Error404 said:

In reply to frenchyd :

My GTI is nimble enough for the corners and it's paid off. My bike is nimble everywhere, it's paid off. Not saying you're wrong with your assertions but spending $21k to save on an oil change doesn't seem like it benefits me at this point. I don't gain much for nimbleness but I do gain a bunch of features that I'm not missing. I don't want cameras, I have eyes. I don't want angry cat noises, I have a couple of those at home. So, when I have to go EV it will be a decision made on utility unless I find myself nerding out about the color range of my air duct LEDs. 

Lots of people are excited for EVs, that's neat. I'm not but thought I could weigh in on a casual discussion. 

You aren't just saving oil changes/brake jobs. You're saving over 15 cents per mile  That's $1500 a year for the typical person.  Plus 5 trips a month to the gas station.  Unless your gas station is at the end of your driveway it's gotta save you some time.  Time, you know the stuff we all have a limited supply of but no one knows how limited?  

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/24/22 8:07 a.m.

Something like this.

Electric AC, PS, etc. Other than that, totally silent, smooth, and invisible. Stock gauges and interior.

Or maybe this.

If I gotta give up the stick shift, I'm going full luxo-barge. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/24/22 8:33 a.m.

Since converting one of those to a stick shift is possible, would you do it?   

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/24/22 8:35 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to yupididit :

Because US consumers buy more SUVs and CUVs than minivans. Check out the top 25, there isn't a sliding door in sight: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-cars-2021/ 

But this is coming, and VW has upped their production estimates already.

I wonder what the priority is going to be, is it reasonable to look at total production and assume that's the order various types will come out in?  

Caperix
Caperix New Reader
9/24/22 9:02 a.m.

For me I would want a plug in hybrid without the cvt that most of them come with & a high revving fun motor.  The idea of driving to work on electric all week, then at the push of a button getting the sounds & experience of a gas engine sounds like the best of both worlds.  The electric drive could even fill in the torque down low so you could have a 9000 rpm screamer of a gas engine.

So a Honda crz with more electric power & better gas engine & more battery range.  If its my car make it RWD while we are changing things up, and give me DCT & manual transmission options

Error404
Error404 HalfDork
9/24/22 9:11 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I often commute on my motorcycle and gas up once a month. But that's a pesky inconvenience to the EV Truth so we'll ignore that. I also don't park in my garage, so I can use some of those saved minutes to walk an extension cord down my driveway every night and back up in the morning. Of course, I don't have room for another car so I just have to offload the ones I have and like for the thrill of instant torque. Maybe a car payment is what I've been missing to enhance my driving experience? Why enjoy operating a complex machine when you can be conveyed by a computer that simply must save me time and money. So what if it's unappealling to me and doesn't do anything different, at least I'll be able to test the limits of traction at the press of the one pedal on each and every residential street. 

 

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/24/22 9:39 a.m.
yupididit said:

Why isn't there a EV minivan? Seems like an easy sell. 

Modern minivans are amazingly space cramped underneath because everyone insists on (or believes that their customers insist on) having in-floor folding seats.

Having had to deal with seats that you had to remove and find space for, I can sympathize.

I'm picturing here the difference between a Honda Odyssey and a Ridgeline/Pilot.  Same chassis, but the Odyssey is not available with all wheel drive because the floor in it goes all the way to the ground to make room for the stowable seats.  Makes the fuel tank and exhaust a pain, too.  To get decent battery size for a big box would most likely require ditching the stowable seating and now you've lost a bunch of customers.  Or so they believe, at least.

JimS
JimS Reader
9/24/22 9:48 a.m.

A solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Still have to produce the electricity so you're just adding a middle-man. Just relocating the pollution. Right now I can drive 400 miles and fill up in 5 minutes and continue. I'm not interested. Fortunately I'm 78 so won't have to worry about the chaos of power outages and the ev's stranded everywhere. Feel free to castigate me. You won't change my mind. 

triumph7
triumph7 HalfDork
9/24/22 10:00 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:
Toyman! said:

I'm gonna start marketing an accelerator pedal remapper that limits acceleration to 9s 0-60 - a bit faster than a 1990 Miata.

Why? You just program the acceleration curve in the inverter.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/24/22 12:51 p.m.
JimS said:

A solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Still have to produce the electricity so you're just adding a middle-man. Just relocating the pollution. Right now I can drive 400 miles and fill up in 5 minutes and continue. I'm not interested. Fortunately I'm 78 so won't have to worry about the chaos of power outages and the ev's stranded everywhere. Feel free to castigate me. You won't change my mind. 

Jim I'm 74 so it's not hard to figure out.  
 Solar and wind blows in everybody's place. Here in Minnesota we can get free solar panels installed and hooked up. 
    The utility companies pay for that. And once you've repaid their cost. ( typically 8-10 years) they last 20+, you get your electricity free and any surplus you get a monthly check for.  It's a good deal for the utility companies too. 
  A new Chevy Bolt will sell for $20,700 once all the rebates etc are figured in.  It has a range of 259 miles.  ( typical American drives 31 miles a day )  plug it into a regular outlet and 31 miles will  recharge before you eat diner. ( from dead flat takes about 12 hours).   
   Here's the deal,  gas cost the average American about $1600 a year  Traveling the same distance you'll use $100 worth of electricity a year.   
      No oil changes ( about $50, no brake jobs (regenerative braking)  no going to a gas station to fill up.( how much time will that save you?) 

  They are fast.  Peak torque is at a dead stop not 4800rpm. 
 Chevy gives a 8 year warrantee and 100,000 miles on the battery.  No the battery doesn't go dead, they are projected to last 20 years. 
     

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/24/22 1:15 p.m.
calteg said:

the most recent Volvo V70, but full EV. Volvo has needlessly complicated that wagon, I suspect a fully electric version would be much faster and more reliable. 

The Volvo EV is based on the 60 series. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/24/22 1:21 p.m.
Erich said:

In reply to tuna55 :

we have the plug-in Pacifica and the only complaint I have is it's a Chrysler product so who knows what the longevity will be. Where we are in Michigan there's no full electric that would do a road trip to and around the Upper Peninsula with current infrastructure, so any road tripper currently needs to be a hybrid in my opinion. This may change someday, but right now a BEV is better for interurban trips.

 

Here's the current crop of >70kw DC CCS chargers in Northern Michigan. There are currently two locations with one plug each in the UP. Not good. 

I'm not a fan of Chrysler either but I'll bet the EV's will be more reliable than the ICE'.
    Instead of one stroke out of 4   Making power the electric motor is always making power as it revolves.  It does't need an oil pump, camshafts valves, pushrods,  a transmission  etc etc etc.  just a simple electric  motor that goes backwards as well as forwards. 
      They all use the same basic battery cells in various configurations. 

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/24/22 1:29 p.m.
frenchyd said:

Since converting one of those to a stick shift is possible, would you do it?   

No. The point of those luxo barges to me is no shifting, cool AC, smooth ride, etc. Modern brakes would be a nice addition.

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/24/22 1:52 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Your math only works for people who buy brand new cars at reasonable prices. And less people commute everyday to work than in 2018. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/24/22 6:33 p.m.
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) said:
frenchyd said:

Since converting one of those to a stick shift is possible, would you do it?   

No. The point of those luxo barges to me is no shifting, cool AC, smooth ride, etc. Modern brakes would be a nice addition.

They aren't my taste either,  although under certain circumstances might be fun to drive again.  
     There are some who want to manually shift and feel cheated if they can't.  
  That's OK for them.  Heck,  buy what you want. Enjoy  it right up to the point it interferes with my enjoyment of something else. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/24/22 6:53 p.m.
yupididit said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Your math only works for people who buy brand new cars at reasonable prices. And less people commute everyday to work than in 2018. 

We are talking about math?   The average person does spend $1600 a year for gas.   An Electric used in my state would be hard to calculate. My granddaughter tells me there are outlets on campus to plug your car heater in but some are charging their car for free. Same thing at the bus company I work at. Plenty of outlets to plug into for the buses. They've told us we can use them because that's where we park our cars while driving the bus. But budget $100 a year to be sure. 
     Then there are 2&1/2 oil changes a year you'd save on and brake jobs you wouldn't need. 
  Now a new car will cost less than $300 a month on a 6 year loan.*after Jan 1. 
    
  Used cars?  Impossible to calculate.  Are you a skilled mechanic with your own tools? If the engine / transmission goes out do you fix it or throw the car away?  
    What other problems did the previous owner ignore?  How close to that magical 200,000 mile mark are you?   According to consumer reports less than 1% of all cars achieve that.  (I question that because I always get well over that).  But they claim documentation.   
       

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
9/24/22 7:32 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Still wondering which EV you drive. 

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/24/22 10:37 p.m.
frenchyd said:
yupididit said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Your math only works for people who buy brand new cars at reasonable prices. And less people commute everyday to work than in 2018. 

We are talking about math?   The average person does spend $1600 a year for gas.   An Electric used in my state would be hard to calculate. My granddaughter tells me there are outlets on campus to plug your car heater in but some are charging their car for free. Same thing at the bus company I work at. Plenty of outlets to plug into for the buses. They've told us we can use them because that's where we park our cars while driving the bus. But budget $100 a year to be sure. 
     Then there are 2&1/2 oil changes a year you'd save on and brake jobs you wouldn't need. 
  Now a new car will cost less than $300 a month on a 6 year loan.*after Jan 1. 
    
  Used cars?  Impossible to calculate.  Are you a skilled mechanic with your own tools? If the engine / transmission goes out do you fix it or throw the car away?  
    What other problems did the previous owner ignore?  How close to that magical 200,000 mile mark are you?   According to consumer reports less than 1% of all cars achieve that.  (I question that because I always get well over that).  But they claim documentation.   
       

 

Okay. You get nowhere repeatedly posting this information everytime someone says an EV isn't for them or that your math/logic/justification doesn't fit in every situation. Again, your math or reasoning only means anything for someone who is looking to buy a brand new car.  And they somehow get a new EV for $15k over a 72 month loan, otherwise under $300 a month isn't it. 

stuart in mn
stuart in mn MegaDork
9/25/22 12:03 a.m.

Getting back to the original question...

I want an EV that's moderately priced, has moderate performance, and looks like a regular car - I'm not interested in an oversized SUV or a supercar or something that's styled to scream "look at me, I'm electric".  Of current EVs, the Tesla model S is about the only one that is genuinely attractive to me but I'm not in the market for a car that costs over $100k.  The Tesla model 3 is closer to my requirements but I'm not as crazy about its looks, it's still on the pricey side, and I don't need a car that can do 11 second quarter miles.

My current ride is an e28 5 series BMW.  I'd like something about the same size and form factor, and as much fun to drive.  I'll gladly trade some of that super performance for range - say, a car that only runs 13s in the quarter (which is still pretty darn quick for a daily driven street car) with a 400+ mile range.  Price it reasonably, say $45k, and we can talk.

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE SuperDork
9/25/22 10:48 a.m.

On one hand, I totally get the whole "We want an EV that looks like any other car". On the other hand, FUTURE. I want it to look like the cool future we were promised in the 80s and 90s with chrome and hovering. I don't want to see a single fleck of silver paint.

I'd want two vehicles that specifically play to EVs strengths- one of them, I want to be the cheapest, fastest vehicle possible. I want the unholy cross union of a Dodge Demon with the Aptera; and what's scary is that this idea is somewhat possible. Basically go full aero, coupe body, small frontal area, lithium iron phosphate battery, and build it to go straight as controlled and stable as possible. I want a sub 30K car that keeps up with the Plaid, and from seeing some builds like that in the eBike world I think it's doable. Sticking to LiFePO4 also means you have a battery that both discharges enough to power it, while also being long-lived (10+ years!) and safe in case something happens.

The other I think, would be like the AR platform of EVs. Canoo is trying to do this now with their platform, but I'd basically want the S10 of EVs using LFP Blade batteries in a chassis that's easily "topped" with either a truck or a van body. I'd want each one to either prioritize range or AWD, your battery choice is either cheaper/hardier/longer-life LFP or Longer range/faster charging Li-ion, you're inverters can be either V2G or not, you can have solar on top or not... I want an EV that's like modern home computers, endlessly customizable.

 

RevRico
RevRico UltimaDork
9/25/22 10:57 a.m.

A Rivian or Lightening that I can actually afford.

4wd, room for 4 adults, 6+ foot bed that can carry 1,000lbs or so. 250-300 mile range would put it on par with pretty much every other vehicle I've ever owned. 

The shape of my knees, back, and hatred for sharing the road with idiots, I'll NEVER go more than 300 miles in one shot without stopping for a while anyway, and 95% of my driving is within 50 miles of home. 

 

te72
te72 HalfDork
9/25/22 4:34 p.m.

I'm a sports car guy for the most part, at heart. The rest of the fleet could be EV quite easily for all it matters to me. The LS400 and GMC 2500 both are fairly quiet and reasonably torquey, so they're not entirely unlike an EV, driven the way they tend to feel most natural.

 

My sports cars, on the other hand... To me, weight is paramount, followed by aural excitement. The Exocet would be a hoot with an EV conversion, but my main requirement is that it doesn't put on more weight than the removal of the BP Miata drivetrain allows for. It also needs enough range to be able to make it through a full day of autocross. Currently, that's not quite doable. I don't need it to be super powerful, the BP in it is plenty enough as is for the most part. The instant torque is the appeal here.

 

The Supra, its biggest appeal is the noises it makes, and the driving dynamics it brings to the table. Not an EV on earth that would make noises as exciting, by nature, but that's perfectly fine. Most sporty EV's would gap me badly in almost any competition aside from top speed, but you'd have to wipe the smile off my face from hearing all those delicious noises before I'd be bothered to care.

 

XKCD did a great parallel with rockets, in their "What If?" series. The trouble with rockets is that the more power and range you need, the more fuel you have to take on board, which requires more power and range, which requires more fuel, which requires more... well, you get the point. There's a balance that seems to apply to EV's currently. Maybe when I'm older, sports cars will be both lithe and electric, but for now...

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/25/22 4:39 p.m.
triumph7 said:
Keith Tanner said:
Toyman! said:

I'm gonna start marketing an accelerator pedal remapper that limits acceleration to 9s 0-60 - a bit faster than a 1990 Miata.

Why? You just program the acceleration curve in the inverter.

Because I'm assuming I won't have access to the code in the inverter, but I will have the ability to intercept and modify the signal from the accelerator pedal.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/25/22 6:50 p.m.
frenchyd said:
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to yupididit :

Because US consumers buy more SUVs and CUVs than minivans. Check out the top 25, there isn't a sliding door in sight: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-cars-2021/ 

But this is coming, and VW has upped their production estimates already.

I wonder what the priority is going to be, is it reasonable to look at total production and assume that's the order various types will come out in?  

I would think so. You go for the biggest market you can. There's a reason Ford started with a SUV and an F150 for their EVs. 

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/25/22 8:23 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Didn't Ford make an electric Focus as well?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/25/22 8:38 p.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

I don't count compliance EVs. Those were just built to meet certain state regulations and were minimum effort.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/25/22 9:42 p.m.
yupididit said:
frenchyd said:
yupididit said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Your math only works for people who buy brand new cars at reasonable prices. And less people commute everyday to work than in 2018. 

We are talking about math?   The average person does spend $1600 a year for gas.   An Electric used in my state would be hard to calculate. My granddaughter tells me there are outlets on campus to plug your car heater in but some are charging their car for free. Same thing at the bus company I work at. Plenty of outlets to plug into for the buses. They've told us we can use them because that's where we park our cars while driving the bus. But budget $100 a year to be sure. 
     Then there are 2&1/2 oil changes a year you'd save on and brake jobs you wouldn't need. 
  Now a new car will cost less than $300 a month on a 6 year loan.*after Jan 1. 
    
  Used cars?  Impossible to calculate.  Are you a skilled mechanic with your own tools? If the engine / transmission goes out do you fix it or throw the car away?  
    What other problems did the previous owner ignore?  How close to that magical 200,000 mile mark are you?   According to consumer reports less than 1% of all cars achieve that.  (I question that because I always get well over that).  But they claim documentation.   
       

 

Okay. You get nowhere repeatedly posting this information everytime someone says an EV isn't for them or that your math/logic/justification doesn't fit in every situation. Again, your math or reasoning only means anything for someone who is looking to buy a brand new car.  And they somehow get a new EV for $15k over a 72 month loan, otherwise under $300 a month isn't it. 

I've sold both new and used cars 2 separate occasions in my life.  First in 1974 when I got out of the service.  
 And again in 2014  

  Things really hadn't changed a bit. 
  New cars sell for close to dealer cost.  A $500 profit was considered a home run. 
   A used car is what you always made big commissions on. $5000 profit was pretty normal.   My commission checks would show $300 commission for selling a new car. And $2000 or more for the used ones.  
People are very good as second grade math.     This is less money than that. But they are lousy at values. They refer to guides like KBB and others for what others are willing to pay.  Not how much that particular car is actually worth.   I'd see these miserable trade ins come in. With a few dents,  torn seats, worn tires dirty and even a few rust spots.  We'd generously allow them $10,000 but up to $5,000 of that came off the list price  of what they were buying.   We'd send it through the clean up company and it would come out gleaming, clean shiny and with no visible defects. New tires,  smelling good. At only $14,999.  We'd do a little shifty changy on their trade in and   Make our $5000 profit.  Their trade in which we actually allowed $3000 for would go through the same thing and again we'd wind up with $5000 profit. And another trade in to sell at another $5000 profit. 
   No $5000 wasn't all we made some used deals made $10,000 or more!!!! 
    If you look at car ownership costs. When new there is no maintenance.  Make your payment and that's  about it.  Right about the point the car gets paid off comes the repair work.  In general the costs go up the longer you hold on to it. 
     We tend to fool ourselves because we don't charge us for the fair market value of our labor. If we did we couldn't afford to own them.   
    So since EV's really are pretty new  yes most will be new.   And the monthly payment for the Leaf or the Bolt which will serve  95% of people perfectly  could be as low as $250-275 a month. 
     But some people think that a $3000 used car is a better deal than a $30,000 car because of depreciation.  
 Well it is if you buy cars to sell them.  But it isn't if you buy cars to use them.  

whiskey_business
whiskey_business GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/25/22 10:15 p.m.

I'd have a daily driver EV in a heartbeat, because they're cheap to run, quick off the line, and you can flog them mercilessly without any trouble.

However, my perfect EV is actually a Full Hybrid (Not Plug In) side by side.

Instant torque from drive motor. Ability to charge battery at peak power with their mid mounted, peaky turbo motor. Quick fill ups off the grid with fuel. Regen braking for descending hills and improving fuel economy. Small to medium sized battery mounted on the floor make the inherent tippyness of side by sides, all protected by skid plates of course.

 

Someone needs to get on this before I do.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/25/22 10:21 p.m.
te72 said:

I'm a sports car guy for the most part, at heart. The rest of the fleet could be EV quite easily for all it matters to me. The LS400 and GMC 2500 both are fairly quiet and reasonably torquey, so they're not entirely unlike an EV, driven the way they tend to feel most natural.

 

My sports cars, on the other hand... To me, weight is paramount, followed by aural excitement. The Exocet would be a hoot with an EV conversion, but my main requirement is that it doesn't put on more weight than the removal of the BP Miata drivetrain allows for. It also needs enough range to be able to make it through a full day of autocross. Currently, that's not quite doable. I don't need it to be super powerful, the BP in it is plenty enough as is for the most part. The instant torque is the appeal here.

 

The Supra, its biggest appeal is the noises it makes, and the driving dynamics it brings to the table. Not an EV on earth that would make noises as exciting, by nature, but that's perfectly fine. Most sporty EV's would gap me badly in almost any competition aside from top speed, but you'd have to wipe the smile off my face from hearing all those delicious noises before I'd be bothered to care.

 

XKCD did a great parallel with rockets, in their "What If?" series. The trouble with rockets is that the more power and range you need, the more fuel you have to take on board, which requires more power and range, which requires more fuel, which requires more... well, you get the point. There's a balance that seems to apply to EV's currently. Maybe when I'm older, sports cars will be both lithe and electric, but for now...

I believe you're wrong.  To me, (IMHO) the finest exhaust sound is that of a 3 liter Ferrari V12  at about 7000 rpm.  
   That high octave scream is unlike anything you can hear today so it's understandable  you can't appreciate it.  
    Those cars are all multi million dollar investments  and just not a viable to hear screaming away at peak revs.  
    Now-days all that's left is some Japanese tuners best attempt to achieve that with a 4 or 6 cylinder something. But it's like a country Western singer attempting to sing Opera. Just not going to make it, no matter how good. 
  Enzo Ferrari was brilliant he used slightly too small exhaust pipes to broaden the torque of his little 3 liters. 
    Giving his cars a quicker shot out from the corners knowing once ahead it was easier to stay ahead than to catch and pass.   It also gave the cars A distinctive note   
 A 12 cylinder will have 3 cylinders at a time giving the exhaust note. Since the pipe length is slightly different length the note each three some was much more authoritarian than any 4, 6, 8 cylinder will be.  The 8 cylinder because of the firing order you basically hear 6 cylinders and a stumble( that's what gives a V8  it's distinctive rumble). 
 Even modern V12's are bigger sometimes much bigger than Ferrari's  3 liter was.  You can hear all 12 cylinders if the exit from the rear of the car but they no longer have the high Octave scream. 
    What you hear with a 12 cylinder will fool you it's sounds as if the engine is idling fast, 1500 rpm   But a glance at the tach will show 600 rpm  that's what a 12 cylinder sounds like today  the V8 has is stumble and a six cylinder can sound different depending on its configuration   
    In line six with a cross flow head is one  with a same side head is another and the Hemi  is  unique unto itself   
 Then there is the V6 and flat 6 

 

paddygarcia
paddygarcia GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/25/22 10:36 p.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

They did - my dad had one, then on to me. Very nice EV, hampered by a small battery.

te72
te72 HalfDork
9/26/22 12:37 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm not saying there aren't better sounding engines out there than my Supra, but dance with the one you're with, I believe is the saying? I could see if my neighbors would let me sell their houses so I could zoom up and down the streets in a 60's Ferrari, but something tells me that'd be a hard sell.

mr2peak
mr2peak Dork
9/26/22 3:36 a.m.

Tiny box city car, with AWD and 400hp+. Grocery getting / stop light warrior.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/26/22 8:15 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

The one I played with was owned by the late David Love.  He raced for Ferrari and as a result Enzo sold him a 2958 Testa Rossa  with the pontoon fenders.  
   When he passed his heirs sold it for I believe 56 million.  So a lot of your neighbors would need to donate their houses.   ;-).  
     The first time I heard that scream I was 14 and had taken a milk run steam train from Mpls to Elkhart Lake. 
Talk about sensory overload.  There were 3 Ferrari's there plus all the great British cars such as Jaguar.  Maserati's including a Birdcage. ( boy, those Italians are lousy welders ) standing at the fence at Turn 5  you could hear all that music going up the main straight and coming down the second long straight. 
     The Farrari's sound like a full throated opera while the American V8's were more like a fullback sounding  the charge   The Jaguar sixes had the heavy deep bellow of a Hemi without the V8 stumble. 
  Then there were the smells. Some of the purists were still using Castrol R which is just Castor Bean Oil.  As awful as that stuff is to swallow it's just that beautiful to smell.  Plus the church's had their usual corn and Bratwurst smells with a little overture of fresh popcorn.  Plus a cascade of BBQ's and burnt braking linings, followed by overheated engines.   
  For your eyes the Concourse de Elegance had beautifully shined and pampered  treats dating back to the early 1920's 

 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/26/22 8:41 a.m.
whiskey_business said:

I'd have a daily driver EV in a heartbeat, because they're cheap to run, quick off the line, and you can flog them mercilessly without any trouble.

However, my perfect EV is actually a Full Hybrid (Not Plug In) side by side.

Instant torque from drive motor. Ability to charge battery at peak power with their mid mounted, peaky turbo motor. Quick fill ups off the grid with fuel. Regen braking for descending hills and improving fuel economy. Small to medium sized battery mounted on the floor make the inherent tippyness of side by sides, all protected by skid plates of course.

 

Someone needs to get on this before I do.

I've been having similar thoughts...the drivetrain would be individual wheel-motors for sure, and maybe some kind of rotary (liquidpiston?) for the ICE - they're more efficient and last longer when they're run harder.

te72
te72 HalfDork
9/26/22 10:15 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I'd have to expand the range of neighbors, for sure. Only about a hundred or so houses in this neighborhood.

 

Your experience reminds me of the time we went to an American Le Mans race in 2010. Quite similar, if you'd pardon the Ferraris for having beautiful singing V8's instead. The Jaguars and Corvettes provided the bass, while the Porsches were on hand to provide some treble. Throw in the occasional Ford GT, and it was quite the aural experience.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/26/22 10:26 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

The one advantage of old age is the depth of memories. 
   I'm sure by the time you reach my age any ICE experience  will be unique. "what Grandpa? You drove your own cars by hand?"  

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/26/22 10:33 a.m.

Other then my Element-ish idea (which is the super pratical one), the big thing I want is a super stripped back fun hot hatch style EV. I think my issue with current EVs is they all feeling like rolling computers. I want something that feels like an old Honda Civic or VW Rabbit. To be fair many ICE cars also suffer from this but at least there is the rare option of being able to get a manual which makes up for some of this.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/26/22 10:59 a.m.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

Now is the time to find that rust free but raggedy and accordingly cheap,  dream car.   Store it away in a corner someplace while you get the parts and modifications done as your budget allows.  
     I did that with this MG purchased in 1962  drove it 46 miles before it blew up the engine. By 1969 I went home on leave and replaced the engine. Drove it to my Navy Base in San Diego  and messed with it until 1972 when I did a frame up restoration. And finished it as I left the Navy in August of 1974 

    The wonderful thing about doing that is it taught me every single nut and bolt on the car and how to care for them.  

rustomatic
rustomatic HalfDork
9/26/22 12:00 p.m.

I'm leaning toward this:

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 UberDork
9/26/22 7:09 p.m.

My ultimate EV. I got to drive Sat. 9-11-22 at NY Safety Track...(which it definitely is not)....pic is not me at Summit Pt.

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/26/22 8:22 p.m.
frenchyd said:
yupididit said:
frenchyd said:
yupididit said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Your math only works for people who buy brand new cars at reasonable prices. And less people commute everyday to work than in 2018. 

We are talking about math?   The average person does spend $1600 a year for gas.   An Electric used in my state would be hard to calculate. My granddaughter tells me there are outlets on campus to plug your car heater in but some are charging their car for free. Same thing at the bus company I work at. Plenty of outlets to plug into for the buses. They've told us we can use them because that's where we park our cars while driving the bus. But budget $100 a year to be sure. 
     Then there are 2&1/2 oil changes a year you'd save on and brake jobs you wouldn't need. 
  Now a new car will cost less than $300 a month on a 6 year loan.*after Jan 1. 
    
  Used cars?  Impossible to calculate.  Are you a skilled mechanic with your own tools? If the engine / transmission goes out do you fix it or throw the car away?  
    What other problems did the previous owner ignore?  How close to that magical 200,000 mile mark are you?   According to consumer reports less than 1% of all cars achieve that.  (I question that because I always get well over that).  But they claim documentation.   
       

 

Okay. You get nowhere repeatedly posting this information everytime someone says an EV isn't for them or that your math/logic/justification doesn't fit in every situation. Again, your math or reasoning only means anything for someone who is looking to buy a brand new car.  And they somehow get a new EV for $15k over a 72 month loan, otherwise under $300 a month isn't it. 

I've sold both new and used cars 2 separate occasions in my life.  First in 1974 when I got out of the service.  
 And again in 2014  

  Things really hadn't changed a bit. 
  New cars sell for close to dealer cost.  A $500 profit was considered a home run. 
   A used car is what you always made big commissions on. $5000 profit was pretty normal.   My commission checks would show $300 commission for selling a new car. And $2000 or more for the used ones.  
People are very good as second grade math.     This is less money than that. But they are lousy at values. They refer to guides like KBB and others for what others are willing to pay.  Not how much that particular car is actually worth.   I'd see these miserable trade ins come in. With a few dents,  torn seats, worn tires dirty and even a few rust spots.  We'd generously allow them $10,000 but up to $5,000 of that came off the list price  of what they were buying.   We'd send it through the clean up company and it would come out gleaming, clean shiny and with no visible defects. New tires,  smelling good. At only $14,999.  We'd do a little shifty changy on their trade in and   Make our $5000 profit.  Their trade in which we actually allowed $3000 for would go through the same thing and again we'd wind up with $5000 profit. And another trade in to sell at another $5000 profit. 
   No $5000 wasn't all we made some used deals made $10,000 or more!!!! 
    If you look at car ownership costs. When new there is no maintenance.  Make your payment and that's  about it.  Right about the point the car gets paid off comes the repair work.  In general the costs go up the longer you hold on to it. 
     We tend to fool ourselves because we don't charge us for the fair market value of our labor. If we did we couldn't afford to own them.   
    So since EV's really are pretty new  yes most will be new.   And the monthly payment for the Leaf or the Bolt which will serve  95% of people perfectly  could be as low as $250-275 a month. 
     But some people think that a $3000 used car is a better deal than a $30,000 car because of depreciation.  
 Well it is if you buy cars to sell them.  But it isn't if you buy cars to use them.  

 

Ok...I think I'm done with EV threads on GRM. Geez

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
9/26/22 8:55 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

It's not the threads or the EVs. 

Flynlow (FS)
Flynlow (FS) Dork
9/26/22 9:00 p.m.

I would love a hot hatch EV (no the hyundai suv doesn't count, it's a stylish fatty).  I want a GTI or Civic form factor, low to the ground and sporty, good bucket seats, and a six speed with a clutch pedal for entertainment value.

Yes, i said clutch pedal.  I recognize that it does absolutely nothing (heck its LESS efficient) but i want to be entertained.  If porsche stills gives the pdk flappy paddles, its no more ridiculous than that excellent driveline allowing idiot operator input.  Tie a sound generator to pedal position and motor speed and give me a rotary knob selector that has a bunch of cool sounds (alfa 4cyl, lancia startos 6cyl, ferrari v8, and zonda v12 to start), and let me be a hero in my own mind.  Banging gears and smiling ear to ear.  I don't care how fast it goes, the equivalent of ~300hp and 300 mile range feels about right as a starting point.  Also, as a spoof/easter egg, put this on the rotary knob to remind me I'm being ridiculous:

https://youtu.be/7ury3Wmg9PA

not so much the axel f song, but the goofy hamster engine sound.  The overrun burble being the "BEE BAHH BEEDEEBEEDEE BAH BAH BEEDEEBEE" would crack me up every time.  Because that's funny to me :).  Everytime i pass a burble tune focus st or wrx that setting would be played.

AndyHess
AndyHess New Reader
9/29/22 9:24 a.m.

Johnny Cab.  (Total Recall)

Martian Taxi | From the Total Recall movie. | rcvernors | Flickr

dherr (Forum Supporter)
dherr (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/29/22 10:11 a.m.

I know this will ruffle some feathers, but I have no interest in a fully electric EV whatsoever. Even if they solve the range problems and find a way to expand the electrical grid to cover all the new electric cars coming on to the market. All my cars other than our Suburban and my wife's SUV are two seat sports cars from the 60's thru the 90's and all are light, agile cars that make all the right sounds. My stock TR8 is not fast, but it is a pleasure to drive and listen to that V8 as you go thru the gears. The Lancia's all sound like proper sports cars, as does my Spitfire, Miata and 914's. I want to shift gears, I want to be engaged, not just push a bunch of buttons.  Electric cars may be fast, but they are also heavy and the opposite of what I want in a car.  There is one EV that I would want to have, so I guess I'll answer the question with this hybrid EV. This car solves the main issue I have with EV's is the lack of proper sports car sounds. The 918 can drive away silently on electric power until that twin turbo V8 fires up! Saw one this past summer at the Pittsburgh Vintage races, what a car!

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/29/22 10:33 a.m.

For me, an EV has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with laziness and ease of use.  I love my gas powered classic cars and will likely always have at least one, but for day-to-day driving, that whole "not having to buy gas" thing is so appealing.

I also want an EV minivan. I had high hopes for the Buzz since it was first announced years ago, but right now it looks like it will not meet my needs for utility in a minivan (not long enough).  As much as I love the in-floor seating storage of my Grand Caravan (it's in "cargo van" mode 99.9% of the time, I accept I'll likely lose that feature with an EV. 

Even better would be an EV version of an E-series van.  If I had money to burn, I'd buy a Mach E and build my own version of the F100 Ford built, which looks a lot more like a pick up body/bed grafted on to a Mach E "skate board" (complete with the Mac-Strut front suspension) than the "EV conversion" Ford has marketed.   But instead of a '71 F series, I'd use a '92-07 raised roof conversion van. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/29/22 10:52 a.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

For me, an EV has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with laziness and ease of use.  I love my gas powered classic cars and will likely always have at least one, but for day-to-day driving, that whole "not having to buy gas" thing is so appealing.

I also want an EV minivan. I had high hopes for the Buzz since it was first announced years ago, but right now it looks like it will not meet my needs for utility in a minivan (not long enough).  As much as I love the in-floor seating storage of my Grand Caravan (it's in "cargo van" mode 99.9% of the time, I accept I'll likely lose that feature with an EV. 

Even better would be an EV version of an E-series van.  If I had money to burn, I'd buy a Mach E and build my own version of the F100 Ford built, which looks a lot more like a pick up body/bed grafted on to a Mach E "skate board" (complete with the Mac-Strut front suspension) than the "EV conversion" Ford has marketed.   But instead of a '71 F series, I'd use a '92-07 raised roof conversion van. 

I think we're best friends.

My "fun restore/race/play" car will likely be ICE.

I do not want to ever touch my "bring sacks of meat from here to there every day through traffic" car, and I do not want to spend any money on it at all, therefore an EV is perfect.

 

dherr (Forum Supporter)
dherr (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/29/22 11:11 a.m.
tuna55 said:
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

For me, an EV has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with laziness and ease of use.  I love my gas powered classic cars and will likely always have at least one, but for day-to-day driving, that whole "not having to buy gas" thing is so appealing.

I also want an EV minivan. I had high hopes for the Buzz since it was first announced years ago, but right now it looks like it will not meet my needs for utility in a minivan (not long enough).  As much as I love the in-floor seating storage of my Grand Caravan (it's in "cargo van" mode 99.9% of the time, I accept I'll likely lose that feature with an EV. 

Even better would be an EV version of an E-series van.  If I had money to burn, I'd buy a Mach E and build my own version of the F100 Ford built, which looks a lot more like a pick up body/bed grafted on to a Mach E "skate board" (complete with the Mac-Strut front suspension) than the "EV conversion" Ford has marketed.   But instead of a '71 F series, I'd use a '92-07 raised roof conversion van. 

I think we're best friends.

My "fun restore/race/play" car will likely be ICE.

I do not want to ever touch my "bring sacks of meat from here to there every day through traffic" car, and I do not want to spend any money on it at all, therefore an EV is perfect.

 

Good points, as I don't want to spend any money on my appliance cars either. But while an EV may be less expensive right now in "out of pocket" expenses, I believe much of that will be changing as we charge (pun intended) into the future. Electricity is not free, it is not generated all by solar and wind and the grid will need to grow substantially to accommodate this rapid shift towards electric cars. I have already heard discussions about rationing and restrictions on when you can charge your cars to accomodate all the additonal volume that is coming. Will every parking spot in major cities have a charger? That may be necessary if we are to avoid having to schedule your time at a smaller number of charging stations. I might consider an EV appliance car, but not with any compromises. Right now, it cannot realistically replace our Suburban for towing, but could replace my wife's Tiguan for her short commute. 

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltimaDork
9/29/22 12:37 p.m.

I want to see the "skateboard" / modular concept pushed to something like EV Legos, or at least air cooled VW and kit car levels. Pick a body shell, how many battery packs you want in it, what motors you want at each end, and suspension.

To use a not quite current Chevy lineup, want a short range delivery vehicle? Get a Blazer, smallest battery pack, FWD, and the max sping rate. Want a Monte Carlo coupe? Pick a FWD commuter, get it as RWD and go drifting, or if you want electric motors at both ends an the Blazer's Z71 off road suspension, go ahead - if it fits together, it's orderable. Coupe no longer fitting your needs, but the mechanical bits still good? Bring it in and swap to a van body!

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/29/22 12:47 p.m.

EV skateboards may revitalize the coachbuilding/small volume industry. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/29/22 12:54 p.m.
dherr (Forum Supporter) said:
tuna55 said:
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

For me, an EV has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with laziness and ease of use.  I love my gas powered classic cars and will likely always have at least one, but for day-to-day driving, that whole "not having to buy gas" thing is so appealing.

I also want an EV minivan. I had high hopes for the Buzz since it was first announced years ago, but right now it looks like it will not meet my needs for utility in a minivan (not long enough).  As much as I love the in-floor seating storage of my Grand Caravan (it's in "cargo van" mode 99.9% of the time, I accept I'll likely lose that feature with an EV. 

Even better would be an EV version of an E-series van.  If I had money to burn, I'd buy a Mach E and build my own version of the F100 Ford built, which looks a lot more like a pick up body/bed grafted on to a Mach E "skate board" (complete with the Mac-Strut front suspension) than the "EV conversion" Ford has marketed.   But instead of a '71 F series, I'd use a '92-07 raised roof conversion van. 

I think we're best friends.

My "fun restore/race/play" car will likely be ICE.

I do not want to ever touch my "bring sacks of meat from here to there every day through traffic" car, and I do not want to spend any money on it at all, therefore an EV is perfect.

 

Good points, as I don't want to spend any money on my appliance cars either. But while an EV may be less expensive right now in "out of pocket" expenses, I believe much of that will be changing as we charge (pun intended) into the future. Electricity is not free, it is not generated all by solar and wind and the grid will need to grow substantially to accommodate this rapid shift towards electric cars. I have already heard discussions about rationing and restrictions on when you can charge your cars to accomodate all the additonal volume that is coming. Will every parking spot in major cities have a charger? That may be necessary if we are to avoid having to schedule your time at a smaller number of charging stations. I might consider an EV appliance car, but not with any compromises. Right now, it cannot realistically replace our Suburban for towing, but could replace my wife's Tiguan for her short commute. 

While new car sales may shift rapidly to EVs, the national fleet will change much more slowly. New car sales are something like 3-4% of the total fleet size. So this isn't something that needs to happen tomorrow. It just needs to keep pace with the growth of the electric fleet.

Every parking spot will not need a charger, as not every EV needs to be charging every time it stops. We'll certainly see more of them, but in reality only a small percentage will need to have charging available.

The "please do not charge at these times" request from CA recently was an exceptional scenario during a massive heat wave. But time of use charging encourages EV owners to shift their charging to off-peak periods, which will actually help the grid because utilities much prefer a nice consistent demand. The majority of vehicles are parked and stationary at the lowest demand period, which is perfect for charging. 

These are all solvable problems, and there are a lot of people working on solving them. They don't require new technology, they're just financial and logistical challenges. Significant ones given the scale, but the timeframe is also of a similar scale.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/29/22 1:14 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Today I saw a beautifully driven  Tesla carve the perfect line diving in front of me at the freeway on ramp. 
  Most of the time Tesla's are driven like any ordinary car.  But the line and the speed that driver took was shear poetry. 
 

Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter)
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
9/29/22 3:57 p.m.

I didn't read everyone's post, so this idea may be a duplicate.

Small rear drive pick up with a standard cab. Think 80's S10 or Ranger. 2000lb payload, 4500lb towing. 350 mile range.

A/C, old style cruise control, power windows/locks, cloth covered bench seat. Posi-traction. No big screens or tech beyond gauges and radio.

Price would have to be sub $20k for me to afford it.

barefootcyborg5000
barefootcyborg5000 PowerDork
9/29/22 4:36 p.m.

Money aside, I'd have a beautifully quiet and insulated people hauler. Give me a world class stereo, 8 seats, towing capacity (small ski boat or camper, remember I said "money aside") and 300 mile range (not towing, obviously) and fast charging capability. Don't make it look like a Nissan NV, and give me some real colors to choose from. Also as much brakes as can fit under 17" wheels so tires don't break the bank. 

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