ProDarwin said:
- Very little crossover with other motorsports
I'm going to disagree with this statement.
My D2D Challenge truck will eventually turn into a drag n drive or true street event style vehicle. Currently I put swaybars in it for autocross because it started life with none. I'd love to have budget to install the bolt in front coil over shock mounts and heim joint radius arms, but challenge. I'd love to put on the 1.25" belltech swaybar I purchased, but again challenge. There's more I want to do like running a real turbo and not a eBay Chinese t3/t4 hybrid, fab a new exhaust manifold, purchase a rotated and ported intake manifold, a2w intercooler, Holley/fueltech efi, powerglide/turbo400 transmission, etc....
Clearly, most vehicles live beyond the challenge. Nelson's build drag vehicles that kinda turn. I see plenty of others with some post challenge polishing being run at other autocross or track events. There's always life after the challenge, but for all the work that goes into one, there's more work to un-challenge them and that's where most go to die at this stage....
I'll also suggest consideration of the fact, that when you bring in dance partners to co-produce an event, that you give up elements of control. So careful consideration needs to be taken with regards to who you partner with.
In addition to that consolation of control, you also have to be cognitive of the fact that if the event starts to generate more exposure, more entries and more revenue that they're going to take responsibility for it, proclaim that they're going to take the credit, want a larger slice of that revenue and more control of the event. So again, select partners carefully and evaluate their vision and goals to ensure that they match your own.
One of the most impressive things and transformation to me is the awareness of Clarkson, Hammond and May. 17 or 18 years ago you had to be a huge car geek purchasing imported issues of TopGear at a high end bookstore (I miss bookstores) or you were illegally downloading torrents to get their content and really to know who they are (in north America at least). Now if they come up in casual conversation, they're known. My gf who's into niche motorcycles, but doesn't much care for anything with 4 wheels, (that's not entirely true, she has a Volvo suv fetish) loves them. The point is, yes they've had the backing of two of the largest production and publishing entities in the world behind them in the BBC and Amazon (and a third in The Times) but they've been able to increase their visibility and footprint without giving up control and while staying true to themselves. That often takes an authoritarian approach. You have to have the strength and ability to tell any entity that you bring on, "here's what we're going to do here's what I need you to do, understand? Okay let's get to it." If you don't, you will be conceding control from the get go.
Ranger50 said:
ProDarwin said:
- Very little crossover with other motorsports
I'm going to disagree with this statement.
My D2D Challenge truck will eventually turn into a drag n drive or true street event style vehicle.
I'm not familiar with these events or your build. Will your truck will be competitive in these classes?
From an autocross standpoint a lot of vehicles fall into some sort of 'unlimited' class, where they are very underprepared, or a lower class where they are uncompetitive. I did drive Dusterbd's Miata at a local earlier this year and it wasn't that far off - some suspension tweaks and different wheels/tires could make it capable of being a front runner. Most other builds I have seen would not align with autocross rules that well, there are certainly a few though. And most are Miatas.
In reply to ProDarwin :
Hot Rod Drag Week
Rocky Mtn Race week or Race Week
Summit Midwest drags
Sick Week
NMRA/NMCA have true street classes. 30 mile cruise followed by 3 drag passes and no hood opening allowed between passes.
They main thing is to SURVIVE the week, typically 1000-1300 miles, or cruise and passes.
Is a turbocharged 2.3L Lima competitive? Nope, but remember you have to survive to finish.
Autocross rules? Don't get me started on that bullE36 M3 of idiocy. Besides, why does it always have to turn into being competitive? Go berkeleying have FUN!!!!
This is my build so far: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/project-d2d-a-challenging-challenge-bound-ford-ran/174150/page1/
OK, my turn to spend $0.02
1) Simplify the event. Try explaining the concourse to friends and explain that pretty doesn't count, or explain how you can be "passed" by slower cars. No concourse. Fastest car wins.
2) Try explaining FMV to a friend . Dump it, just buy stuff and get a receipt.
3) Don't increase the budget because the speeds will climb. I have no problem with knowledgeable people going fast, but neophytes with $103 turbos could hurt themselves. Speed is getting cheaper and more attainable.
4) Used slicks are the cheapest tire option. Anything else increases cost , but does slow the autocross cars.
5) You can try prohibiting tube frame cars if you think it's keeping other folks away or is unsafe, but I'll bet I find that rule wording challenging.
At the end of the day skilled fabricators and engine builders are going to prevail in the Challenge and any new competitors will quickly realize that. This event has lasted because it is unique and it has a core group who keep showing up. It needs new , repeat players, not guys who are aging out (me). I don't have the answers, just opinions and I hope a rule set can be created to keep this event alive, if only to keep me amused. There are a lot of good points made since Tom changed the tire rule and when all is said and done, I'll play by the rule set created, but it may require a different car than I'm currently building.
In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :
Eliminating or reducing tube frame cars should definitely not be considered. Ensuring safety of competitors, regardless of platform should be. Tube frame builds will draw as much attention as the Nelsons and with a welding company as a major sponsor of the event, they reinforce the value of the event to the sponsor. They absolutely shouldn't be eliminated nor should they be considered a deterrent to others to enter a non-tune framed entry. If a team or potential team is worried that they won't be competitive against a tube framed entry, nothing is preventing them from learning how to weld. If they don't have the space to weld or funds for a decent welder, well, that's where maker spaces can come into play and it's a way to increase awareness within the population and create an accompanying sub class.
My commentary regarding tube frames was strictly from a safety standpoint based on kinetic energy available at an 80-90mph collision with a wall versus a 130-140mph collision. And I'll also be the first to admit ignorance with regards to NHRA safety regulations and requirements. SCCA/IMSA/WEC/WRC, I've got your requirements down and and scrutineer vehicles, but with regards to drag racing sanctioning bodies and regulations, I'm completely ignorant and those governoring bodies will know more about what's needed safety wise for the types of occurances they see on track then someone with a road course background would. I'm not looking to re-write safety rules, I'm looking to ensure that they're not being overlooked and that qualified persons are scrutineering and overseeing them. If it came off any differently than that, it was in the communication.
In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
I understand where you're coming from on the safety aspects , but I also see comments in build threads (mine included) where people say they wish they had the skills to do something similar. IF the powers that be think tube frame cars are discouraging others from entering then it might be prudent to eliminate them. Do I think that would work? Probably not, but it's not my show. I'll also agree with your point that anyone can go learn those skills if they choose to. This whole Challenge thing revolves around spending sweat equity instead of dollars to have fun and learning to test oneself or learn a new skill falls under the sweat equity part in my mind. GRM's problem with car counts isn't an easy one to fix and any changes to the rules are going to be a balancing act.
In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :
That's where the value of fabrication being showcased comes in, Miller obviously understands that value. It's also where subclassing comes in. Tube frames shouldn't be pushed to exhibition, they should be allowed to compete for overall as they always have been. But if a stock frame in addition to stock block class comes into play, that's a realistic class for a first or second timer or someone without a garage or 220v line in their garage to target being competitive.
In the autocross world there are classes galore, most would say too many, but someone who rolls up to nationals in their STS car hoping to podium knows that they're not going to be within 5 seconds of FTD even if they do. Competitors have to have realistic expectations for themselves.
The NHRA doesn't stop running top fuel because 10.5 tire class guys might feel shown up.
Showcasing the pointy end is a good thing, I'm all for it and for more people to take on the endeavor of such undertakings, but (back to safety) when and if green people with regards to fabrication start taking on such endeavors, we'll need more trained eyes on their builds to ensure their safety.
Ranger50 said:
Autocross rules? Don't get me started on that bullE36 M3 of idiocy. Besides, why does it always have to turn into being competitive? Go berkeleying have FUN!!!!
You say this like competition and fun are mutually exclusive. To many people they are not, in fact it is the competition that creates the fun.
DeadSkunk (Warren) said:
This whole Challenge thing revolves around spending sweat equity instead of dollars to have fun
Question: Is this the mission statement of the challenge?
Or is it to demonstrate that you can go racing on a tight budget? Or ???
While there is a lot of overlap between those two, that venn diagram certainly is not a circle. This is why I suggested earlier the financial expenditure vs. sweat equity may be getting out of balance. I think many potential participants may be interested in budget racing.
In reply to ProDarwin :
Good questions. Maybe I'll go see if I can find the original article from the magazine that started this whole thing over twenty years ago and see what the author's exact wording said. Not that the original intent hasn't potentially morphed somewhat, but some quotes from the article might be interesting.
ProDarwin said:
Ranger50 said:
Autocross rules? Don't get me started on that bullE36 M3 of idiocy. Besides, why does it always have to turn into being competitive? Go berkeleying have FUN!!!!
You say this like competition and fun are mutually exclusive. To many people they are not, in fact it is the competition that creates the fun.
Actually, you started out on "the pointy end" of the conversation when I feel it should be fun first that drives the competition aspect to be better in subsequent events. Competition first breeds resentment because you missed having fun first and getting your feet wet then trying to be competitive.
There is little that I've read in having fun in the editorial. Everyone focuses on "keeping up with the Jones's ", when they should just try it.
I'm hoping to go this year for the first time. I'm not winning squat. And honestly if you ditch the concours, I have negative chances. That's the one event I have a chance at.
I won't get into the cost of things currently, everything is bad right now. There are no good solutions on this front.
Fast cars on the drag strip need to meet safety rules. They exist for good reason. I'm not sure how to make this perfect dollar wise. If a 4 pt bar were a no budget hit, I'd install one in my car to make it safer. As it is I fit a harness bar into the budget for the autocross which is way less safe. Thank goodness my car will be slow on the drag strip.
If you want more participation fun is the key.
