FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

EDM needs a through hole too. I got your message. 

The new bearing came today.  Once I can finish welding the boss I'll throw it on the mill and bore the bearing fit, There should be about 1/4" of meat in the new boss so pretty strong.  

The gear will bolt to the new shaft and the shaft will slip through the bearing to reach the OEM trans shaft for easier assembly and the gear will stop on the bearing face for exact height position.  This should be a pretty neat setup.

TurnerX19 said:

EDM needs a through hole too. I got your message. 

So wire machines not sinkers?  I did order the reamer today which I need either way and broach to have just in case.

I'm working on the shaft design right now and have hollowed it out (race part ) but the splines must dead end for this to work.

In reply to mke :

Yes, they are wire machines. I don't know anyone in the Lehigh Valley that has an operational sinker, or even a non-op. 

In reply to TurnerX19 :

broaching it is then!  I'm pretty sure it will work.

The place I used to work when I built the 1st setup did a lot of fancy molds and had 1/2 dozen sinkers they used to burn corners square mostly.....but that was then and nobody I knew is left.

The torch came this afternoon so I got the welding done

Then some clean up to make it prettier

Old bearings out of the drop gear cover.  I was told some heat and they fall out, it was correct.

Then I was remembering that way back when I set this all up the first time I had the issue of I"d cut the casing but needed the cover to match, the opposite of the problem I have now.  But what I did was just indicate in the hole o0n the casing, install then drill a hole though the cove at the bearing center.  When I was done I welded it shut.  So I decided to do it in reverse this time and redrilled the hole, install the cover, indicate the hole, remover the cover and I'm right where the new bearing needs to go.

But I forgot to install the clutch shaft/gear  that I was going to use to get the depth correct, so back off the machine, shaft and gear on.....wait a minute.....this just looks wrong??  hmmmm....I use the trans gear on the clutch shaft and it looks like I set it up to have the trans gear bolted on inside out, to save space I guess, I don't exactly recall but it seems like a bad idea if i want the gears to run quiet so I just stopped for the night to think.

Gears.  

The easy answer is mount them all backwards which must be what I was thinking originally.  I'm pretty sure doing that reverses their rotation which is fine mechanically but causes of gear whine I honestly don't know much about so it makes me wonder. so that is option 1.  option 2 is modify the trans gear (which I install on the clutch), there is a counterbore I don't need that adds length and is no doubt why I flipped it, so I could just remove it but that will likely mess with the ring nut location or require a washer maybe. Option 3 is install as is and reset the weight of the idler gear and possibly need to add a little metal to the top of the new lower gear boss and then hope there is space in the cover.  

I need to have a good look at it.....

I figured out what's going on and got it sorted.  It looks like way back when I decided to swap the gears I looked at them and and thought it easy because I was holding the trans gear backwards and though saw it sat in the right spot....then realized it was backwards, it looks like after I'd already made the new clutch shaft  and I just chopped a little off to get it as close as possible and called it good.  The little could be a random number but I cut it to the thickness of the clutch gear 

So I cut the new one the same but that means everything sits out a little further than I was thinking it would making my new boss too short....so I welded it up. 

On to the mill to cut the bearing seat and clean it up a bit.

A little more clean up on the bench

and it looks like the gears will work

I'll do the shaft next, then the cover will need a little work because everything is taller than I thought and there's no room for the nut, but that's an easy fix.

In reply to mke :

I sincerely appreciate the detailed descriptions and photos. 

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

here's some more then

Tonight I measured where the shaft is exactly from my new bearing to reference the lengths.

Then mostly rapped up the shaft design.  Green are the new bearings, 

the large is the one I installed in the case, the slightly smaller will be secured to the shaft along with the gear by a ring nut on the end.  That assembly will slip into the larger bearing and engage the transmission shaft, then the cover will slip over the smaller outer bearing using the bearing bore already in the cover as the cover.

It begins.  The 40mm OD is set and fits the bearing, ID drilled...well, on the important ID where the splines go I drilled then took a light cut with a boring tool to be certain its true to the OD but I let about 0.015" to ream to finish size as this is a critical feature and that also let me put a radius at the bottom to help with fatigue.  The reamer and broach have finally shipped but tracking says Monday so the plan is try to finish up the lathe work and get the outer splines cut this weekend to be ready to broach Monday night maybe.

Last engine install I was looking 12 into flange nuts to make exhaust install easier but they were like $12 each on mcmaster so i passed.....turns out ebay has them for under $1.25 each so 24 are on the way.

mke said:

Last engine install I was looking 12 into flange nuts to make exhaust install easier but they were like $12 each on mcmaster so i passed.....turns out ebay has them for under $1.25 each so 24 are on the way.

Great find on those, I was just looking for 12pt exhaust nuts, I usually get my ARP stainless studs from Allens Fasteners and the ARP 12pt nuts range from $3.15ea to $4.53ea 

Going to be purchasing some of those for my project

Change of subject and alittle geek speak.  I've been back to thinking about sealing the heads.  The basic plan is a copper flame ring, viton oring, aluminum shim plate like this

The oring is a .070" cross section.  Looing at available material thickness, I can get the copper in .050 and aluminum in 0.047 which will guarantee the copper is clamped giving 28-33% compression of the oring, so at to exceeding the high end of spec.  That should yield a sealing force of 1500-2000psi which should be above what I need. Great.

Now the concern is I'm using to the oring to align the flame ring but the oring needs room to grow radially when its being compressed axially. Below are a few cross-sections.  On the right is a rectangle .070 wide by .050 tall (1.778x1.27mm) and it has an area less than the  oring, so that is a no-go.  Moving left is the round oring and a couple deformed shapes with the same area (rubber doesn't compress, it deforms so the cross section remains about constant).  I don't have FEA software available but I'm pretty sure the far left is going to be close so I need to leave about .0925 (2.35mm), or a clearance of .0225 (.57mm)...which means the oring is really aligning the flame ring until its compressed. I'm thinking I'm going to make the flame ring ID 86.5mm to go with the 86mm bore and just kind of hope that  if I stick the flame ring in place with aviation sealant it stays there and the oring can compress out (it will stretch about 1mm to fit over the flame ring).  The other option is I my the ID fo the flame ring large enough to to know  it can never touch the piston at full 0-compression assembly but that both makes it thinner and lowers compression so yuck.

Can't you just make the whole gasket out of copper eliminating the numerous pieces?

TurboFource said:

Can't you just make the whole gasket out of copper eliminating the numerous pieces?

Usually when people turn to copper head gaskets is because they are blowing standard gaskets.  On the street they say fine but use silicone on the water passeges.  In my case the liners are wet and drop-in so the whole cylinder is a water passage and would need silicone.  I know it can be work because a ferrari turbo shop used them on the high boost cars, but I also know they slather them with silicone to get the water sealed. 

In my case I messed with the liners to use the newer design but the decks is thinner on the older blocks like mine.  I'm hoping this plan is a little more robust with the oring to compensate....hope being the most important word

I think the fire rings will self center so long as the aluminum sheet remains aligned while the head approaches the deck. The O rings deform equally as they compress after all. My concern here is the water seal to the outside of the block. A serious silicone bead top and bottom around the perimeter of the aluminum sheet as much as I dislike the stuff.

TurnerX19 said:

I think the fire rings will self center so long as the aluminum sheet remains aligned while the head approaches the deck. The O rings deform equally as they compress after all. My concern here is the water seal to the outside of the block. A serious silicone bead top and bottom around the perimeter of the aluminum sheet as much as I dislike the stuff.

The head and gasket/shim are pinned so the location is well controlled other than I've now cut between the bores so the center could bow out, and would if the orings expend and apply much pressure. Getting the fit right is important, tight enough for good location, loose enough to keep forces where they belong

The current plan for water sealing on the deck is paint everything with aviation sealant.  There is just so much area that is a potential leak path that I worry the amount of silicone and time to apply would become an issue.  I do have some very slow drying silicone that I'm told is a Ferrari OEM sealant that I could try.  The basic plan is try the aviation stuff because I know it can survive around the cylinder and I can kind of control the film thickness then do a leak test....if it still leaks retry with silicone....then if there is still a problem it's back to head gasket in a bottle I guess 

If I remember correctly the cylinder liners are proud of the deck which is good clamping on  the copper fire rings -i assume that the viton rings would require narrower copper fire rings -don't know if trade off is worth it .If the cylinders are sealed well aviation cement or other  sealants with the aluminum shim/gasket could probably handle the water .

dave215 said:

If I remember correctly the cylinder liners are proud of the deck which is good clamping on  the copper fire rings -i assume that the viton rings would require narrower copper fire rings -don't know if trade off is worth it .If the cylinders are sealed well aviation cement or other  sealants with the aluminum shim/gasket could probably handle the water .

The liners WERE proud, I'm not sure they are still.  Rechecking that is on the to-do list before I can order anything.  I think they are moving and that is why I've struggled to seal them which is what brought me to the viton as the seal and the copper as a flame ring to protect the viton.  I'm not sure its a good plan but I know for sure I've not been successful with gaskets to date.

I got a late start but still a productive day.  I finished up on the lathe

moved to the mill, got it all set up

and realized the spindle hits the chuck .350 before the cut finishes.....so I got to set it up a second time

Then cut some splines.

The gear starts on.  Tomorrow I'll do some deburring and check everything carefully, I d like to see the gear on the shaft before the shaft comes out of the machine.

I did notice the gear is not perfect, there is a line where the metal is deformed.  That made me sad.

And the reamer and broach came so work for tomorrow.

FWIW there is/was a turbo Buick shop that sold copper head gaskets and a little tray that you filled with Right Stuff and a little paint roller that you used to coat the gasket before installation.

Buicks are weird for head sealing, with a copper gasket they can leak oil through the head gasket from the valley out to the side of the deck.

Love reading the updates, keep this epic build going.

I remembered the shaft needs a couple grooves to peen the nut flange into to lock it so added those

I decided I'd gotten a little greeted on the OD trying to get the most spline contact I could, the OD is supposed to be clearance to the spline but was rubbing so I polished off about .001 and the gear installed as a little press

Then ream the other end.  Reamers come with a chamfer cut that I just hate so I always stone a slight radius, it makes them cut a more accurate size and leaves a better finish.

Now I need to make the broach support and a few keys so I can cut, index, repeat.

I made the broach support.  My small endmills are all pretty dull so I was mostly beating the metal off but it worked 

Then cut the end with no teeth off the broach

and got on with it.  

The SS shim stock I bought to wrap the old adapter is about right for shimming the broach so the plan is get it deep enough to index well then do the rest and then start shortening the broach until its straight so like just the last 2 teeth then back to shimming to get the final depth.  Its going to take a while but it seems doable.