In reply to mke :
It might have been a better use of time to re-bearing and re-finish the ways on the lathe then hand fit 24 valve guides.....Lathes are real simple machines compared to 12 cylinder 4 valve engines.
In reply to TurnerX19 :
You know....it's never occurred to me to see what can be done to import the lather other than replace it. I'll have to give that some thought I think the only way to fix it is re-grind the bed.
On the car I think I've posted pretty much everything that's been done so far and with the engine in and test run the project is going from fab to shake-down.. As long as the dead cylinder turns out to be an exhaust valve seat then I kind of expected that. When I bought the valves and seats I did a quick look, measured and went on with the head porting and general rework. When it came time to actually assemble stuff I realized I had 20 exhaust seats of the design I planned for and 4 that were slightly smaller OD. WFT. It was way to late to return them, I called the manufacture and they basically told me I was nuts...which I later learned probably means they make a design change that makes new part incompatible with old parts but the vendors don't know that because all the versions carry the same part number so you can get old parts years after the change. I ordered 4 more seats and they matched the 20 so I was set. Seat and guide day was busy as I really wanted iot done but had company rolling in....heads heated on the grill, seats and guide in liquid nitrogen, pound them together on the patio. Everything went great until the next day when I found 1 or the correct design exhaust seats on the bench.... its only a couple tenths...it wil probably be fine.....knowing the right thing to do was cut them all out and replace them all...but I didn't. So now I'm expecting a piston, 4 valves, weld and recut the combustion chamber, replace all 4 seats, recut and reflow the seats, reassemble. That's what I'm expecting.
And now that the engine has been in and test run and everything seems to fit and work there is finishing up stuff to get on with. The big one is heat management. The factory V8 headers and pipes were insulated. That was all beat up when I got the car so I replaced it with 2 layers of header wrap then painted with high temp silver to make it look decent and you could touch the pipes after a drive, that stuff works good so I'm kind of leaning toward doing that to the new V12 exhaust. I really REALLY want to believe that having everything ceramic coated would be just as good since it looks so much nicer....maybe do the coating and see???....but I know the wrap works and since everything is 304SS it really can't cause corrosion like it does on mild steel headers. I'll need to thing about that while I have everything apart....but the ceramic coating looks a lot better......
The other thing I go round and round on is an oil cooler. The V8 had one and needed it....needed it at least until I upgraded the radiator then I'm not so sure since oil temps were way lower after that....but I still had it so I don't know....in fact I more than don't kow because the oil cooler was in the way doing the supercharger add so I switched to a water/oil type that I ran the engine coolant though so its a complete apples to oranges thing I guess. The one I used last time was like the pic below...I just put it in the hot water to the radiator aluminum tube thinking the oil wants to be warmer than the engine temp and the hot line means no need to add an oil thermostat, not sure that was a great idea but it seemed to work out ...but I could probably make something WAY cheaper. I need to think about that.
Another down side to header wrap is any fluid spill wicks in. Makes a great candle if the wrong fluid gets there by accident....I got a high end ceramic inside and outside on the X1/9 when I built the header, then painted it cause Orangy red looked neat. Still got hot enough to burn the paint off quickly, but, 11 years and 30,000 miles later it still looks great. Also a lot of it shows even with the car closed on the street which is unlikely on your car. It is now by far the best looking part of the "Topo de Corse".
In reply to TurnerX19 :
Yes...I remember watching them stream after a car wash or rain drive. Oil would be bad.
The factory setup was a white ceramic looking insulation with an aluminum cover....I could do something like that I guess.
Tough to be the ceramic coating to looks though.....
Also I currently do not have a rear anti-sway bar as it doesn't fit with the wide wheels. I honestly didn't reall mis it as I replaced the stock koni coil-over things with adjustable ohlins dampers and eibach springs. The stock springs were....my memory is failing but like 180/200 lb/in f/r, the new are 450.400 iirc and a huge improvement. Even with the rear bar remove the rear roll stiffness was a bit high and rear grip was not all I'd like it to be so I planned to drop the rear spring rate....or maybe increase the front but was leaning to softening the rear to try to improve grip. Anyway I put all that on hold when the engine swap started to wait to see where I was with the new engine. ...I'm not sure the weight is much different than the V8+blower but I figured best to wait.
All that said I learned the hard way in my FSAE days that it just plain bad design to try to use the springs to both hold the car up and control roll. I can't find a pic that really show it, you can kind of see on the rear in the pic with the body....I had a progressive linkage that you could adjust progression rate....pain in the butt because changing anything changes everything.
So...who know how to make anti-roll bars? is there a thread or good web site I haven't found?
http://1speedway.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=76 Personally I'd call these guys and build one from their parts if applicable, but I'm of a mind of trying to have some parts be relatively off the shelf and replaceable, especially if they're for tuning stuff and I might need to go through iterations.
I get what you mean by EL not having a model - I downloaded yours and had a look. Am I wrong or are most of the calculations done through the "channels"? Just trying to do a sanity check; I honestly haven't had too much time to delve in given that I can't pretend it's relevant to my current day job. ;)
I'll post on your forum once I get farther - I think I'm going to try to do a model replicating one of Subaru's ECU methods since it's completely different but also documented. Something to do for comprehension of how things work, plus for some projects it might be nice to emulate reflashable OEM ECUs on something I can tune on the dyno.
(Cannot wait for the writeup on how you reverse engineered a current porsche adaptive swaybar and made your own outta carbonfiber, some floorjack hydraulics, and a raspberry pi)
If one was going to go to the nth degree on suspension, I'd be inspired by the 919 suspension, with MR shocks instead of passive ones. But that might be hard to integrate into the Ferrari frame.
Super Beetle/Porsche 924/944 torsion bar + upcycled splined ends + end links?
You can get the torsion bars in various diameters to adjust their rates, the splined ends are steel and can be more easily modified to suit your needs.
The rear suspension on a 924/944 is made to drop out for servicing, so they are relatively easy to grab from a salvage yard so you can work with it as an entire unit and places like CIP1.com carry larger torsion bars, etc.
mekilljoydammit said:http://1speedway.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=76 Personally I'd call these guys and build one from their parts if applicable, but I'm of a mind of trying to have some parts be relatively off the shelf and replaceable, especially if they're for tuning stuff and I might need to go through iterations.
Nice...any idea what pretty parts like that cost?
Imekilljoydammit said:
I get what you mean by EL not having a model - I downloaded yours and had a look. Am I wrong or are most of the calculations done through the "channels"? Just trying to do a sanity check; I honestly haven't had too much time to delve in given that I can't pretend it's relevant to my current day job. ;)
I'll post on your forum once I get farther - I think I'm going to try to do a model replicating one of Subaru's ECU methods since it's completely different but also documented. Something to do for comprehension of how things work, plus for some projects it might be nice to emulate reflashable OEM ECUs on something I can tune on the dyno.
Yes. A channel is basically a line of code. Each item is a function basically. OSme items are really simple like "No Operation" that has no inputs and just lets you enter a value that you will see all through the moidel to something really complete like "Engine Description" that is the main configuration item and must be called once and only once if you want spark and fuel outputs.. I spent a lot of time looking at the bosch and motec stuff when I was workiing on mine.....aftermarket is different from OEM in that you normally want it to be easily tuneable so there needs to be a flow that starts basic and adds functionality...do this, then do that kind of thing. I worte a basic manual for my model, maybe down load amd take a look at that too if you haven't already.
mekilljoydammit said:If one was going to go to the nth degree on suspension, I'd be inspired by the 919 suspension, with MR shocks instead of passive ones. But that might be hard to integrate into the Ferrari frame.
one is not...kiss for this part of the project ;)
mke said:mekilljoydammit said:http://1speedway.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=76 Personally I'd call these guys and build one from their parts if applicable, but I'm of a mind of trying to have some parts be relatively off the shelf and replaceable, especially if they're for tuning stuff and I might need to go through iterations.
Nice...any idea what pretty parts like that cost?
Coleman is another option ( http://www.colemanracing.com/Sway-Bars-C126.aspx ) and they list prices vs "call us". Coleman's about $170 for the bar and $75 apiece for the arms, I'd expect Speedway to be similar. Commodity circle track parts are nice that way.
Imekilljoydammit said:
I get what you mean by EL not having a model - I downloaded yours and had a look. Am I wrong or are most of the calculations done through the "channels"? Just trying to do a sanity check; I honestly haven't had too much time to delve in given that I can't pretend it's relevant to my current day job. ;)
I'll post on your forum once I get farther - I think I'm going to try to do a model replicating one of Subaru's ECU methods since it's completely different but also documented. Something to do for comprehension of how things work, plus for some projects it might be nice to emulate reflashable OEM ECUs on something I can tune on the dyno.
Yes. A channel is basically a line of code. Each item is a function basically. OSme items are really simple like "No Operation" that has no inputs and just lets you enter a value that you will see all through the moidel to something really complete like "Engine Description" that is the main configuration item and must be called once and only once if you want spark and fuel outputs.. I spent a lot of time looking at the bosch and motec stuff when I was workiing on mine.....aftermarket is different from OEM in that you normally want it to be easily tuneable so there needs to be a flow that starts basic and adds functionality...do this, then do that kind of thing. I worte a basic manual for my model, maybe down load amd take a look at that too if you haven't already.
I have the manual open but I think I understand what you're doing in "pseudo code in my head" form - from that working on finding where in the actual model where everything gets done. Some of the stuff I'm trying to do I was looking at going to Speeduino code or something to get a basis for basic functions to hack apart for my purposes, but holy cow is basing off real hardware and tested background stuff preferable.
mekilljoydammit said:Coleman is another option ( http://www.colemanracing.com/Sway-Bars-C126.aspx ) and they list prices vs "call us". Coleman's about $170 for the bar and $75 apiece for the arms, I'd expect Speedway to be similar. Commodity circle track parts are nice that way.
I'll have a look, I'd forgotten all about coleman, thanks!
mekilljoydammit said:
I have the manual open but I think I understand what you're doing in "pseudo code in my head" form - from that working on finding where in the actual model where everything gets done. Some of the stuff I'm trying to do I was looking at going to Speeduino code or something to get a basis for basic functions to hack apart for my purposes, but holy cow is basing off real hardware and tested background stuff preferable.
I'll post a zip with my script and models. Its a bunch of simple models that the scripts build into a full model and I put comments about what everything does in the script. Also when you save it creates a Yed file....like a flow chart, some people like that to help follow, I'll post that too.
Here for anyone who wants it model 2010_01_10
http://gemellocattivo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=153
mke said:mekilljoydammit said:Coleman is another option ( http://www.colemanracing.com/Sway-Bars-C126.aspx ) and they list prices vs "call us". Coleman's about $170 for the bar and $75 apiece for the arms, I'd expect Speedway to be similar. Commodity circle track parts are nice that way.
I'll have a look, I'd forgotten all about coleman, thanks!
The colemen stuff IS speedway stuff it looks like. I'll LOVE the hollow bars, so cool but that are 1 length, I'll need to measure to see if that will work vs speedway had solid bars listed in about 1 inch steps 32-43" long
Coleman's 1 1/4" x 48 spline bars are hollow and available in multiple lengths and a couple different wall thicknesses; might work. For that matter Speedway has their "standard" bars include hollow options in whatever length you ask for. I'm not sure whether they and Speedway are selling the exact same parts, or if it's just a case of the market demanding parts that look like that and both of them filling the need.
The 49 spline "NASCAR" bars have the stiffness options much more granular, but it should still be possible to get pretty close with the other ones and playing with arm leverage.
In reply to mekilljoydammit :
I was clicking too fast...they ALSO sell speedway but I see there own stuff now. I made a spread sheet to calculate the stiffness wiht the different ID/OD combinations, I'll check the length I need to night....engines more important so I probably won't buy anything until I know what kind of $$ damage I did there.
Make the bar a little stiffer than you think you need, and make your own blade ends that you rotate to reduce the arm's stiffness. Look at a Swift Formula ford for easy reference. Anyone with a lathe and milling machine can make the arm/blade, you just need to heat treat into spring.
Just wanted to say that this is an incredible build, and I literally joined the forum after reading it, though I have perused GRM's forums before (specifically, Go_Gators LS1 Kart thread, and of course the AMG R36 Unicorn of My Destruction thread.)
Also, Hi, mekilljoydammit!
Ah come on! After ALL the stupid and insanse stuff going on here, a swaybar has to be one of the easiest things you can build? :D
Think about it, it's just a spring. Take any pipe, if you know the material, outside and inside diameter, you can calculate how much torque you need to apply to twist it a specific amount of degrees.
If you have arms on each end that wont flex, the length of those arms will determine the amount of torque applied to the pipe. Chose a pipe dimension and length that will fit the arm length you need. And don't forget to make say three holes on each arm so that you can adjust it to different lengths (different stiffness), if you use poly bushes, calcuate the swaybar 10% stiffer due to flex in the bushes and also don't forget to calculate what difference it will actually make At the wheel with the motion ratio.
Building a swaybar in comparison to hacking up a V12 engine and hand craft 50+ percent of the pieces needed to get it back together is like comparing building a tree house out of scrap boards with raising Burj Khalifa on your own! 
The "hard part" of building a custom swaybar is to determine how stiff it should be, since that depends on weight distribution, springrates and the front swaybar in this case :)
In reply to Cassius :
After my head stud incident and the whole project honestly I'm being a little more careful before saying "Thats easy!" and charging ahead :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OynKbfEGV_A
Building a rear sway with splined (or hex, square, etc.) ends will definitely be the simplest if you can package a straight bar with straight arms. Not to mention changing rates would be as simple as ordering a different size of 4130 tube from Aircraft Spruce.
As far as mounting the bar goes, I'm a huge fan of using some rod ends mounted to the chassis, and welding some tabs to the side of the torsion element. It seems "wrong" somehow having the axis of rotation not perfectly concentric with the torsion element, but it works really well:
I had the car on the ground last night to look at anitroll bars....so instead I pondered all the space I ended up with between the engine and the wheel. Wow it just seems wrong to waste all that clearance!
Right now it has 285 tires on 10.5" wheels and I had to zip-tie the fiberglass inner wheel well back a bit to keep it from rubbing, thats how it got the way it it. I really want to replace the wheels....and its not a huge big deal to remake the inner wheel wells......I think a 315 on an 11" wheel would go. I need to have a good long look at this before looking to hard at fitting the antiroll bar. and sure, it might get scary close to the oil return pump .
It's hard to stay focused.....I'm pretty sure dealing with heat in the engine bay needs to be first up. In theory at full song this engine can drain the 18gal fuel tank(s) in about 15 minutes. That's a lot of heat generation potential......so much still left to do.....
unevolved said:Building a rear sway with splined (or hex, square, etc.) ends will definitely be the simplest if you can package a straight bar with straight arms. Not to mention changing rates would be as simple as ordering a different size of 4130 tube from Aircraft Spruce.
As-is? not heat treated?
It really isn't hard to fabricate, the hard part is to do the math but even that's not That complicated :) If you have to bend the pipe, just remeber to calculate the pipe length, ot the with between the arms ;)
This one is 30x3mm seamless steelpipe, arms ar 50x50x5mm L-profiles. MR is close to 0,5. Adjustability takes it from low 40 N/mm to mid 60 N/mm, but looking at the swaybar only it should yield about 95N/mm in the softest setting. Still need to pretty-up the arms thou (paint on only for rust protection since the car usually sits a couple of months between tinkering times)
If you could say: "Hey, that's ezipizi!" to building a hoovercraft from a f*cking lawnmower at age 11 with no experience then this is a piece of cake ;)
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