Going Italian - Fiat 850 Spider

I actually used the metro TBI unit on my car the very first time I injected it (NA).  I had issues (with my fuel tank pickup)  and removed it pretty quickly. Had I known my fuel pump feed was clogged, I likely would have kept going that route.

They are compact and contain pretty much everything you would need. They have TPS, CLT, and FPR built in. 

I just have no idea how much fuel they can flow. The fuel pressure regulator is easy to modify make the pressure adjustable.

Perhaps Peabody on here might know the horsepower limits of the injector in one of them? He is a bit of a Geo/Suzuki/Firefly guru/legend.

    With the MSD timing control, or some other method, you could use a carb, to assemble it and get it running.   Then you could update to injection.

     Should use a air/fuel ratio gauge to help ensure the set-up is working, or at least not going to lean.

     Should be fun little turbo car.   If the turbo is to big for the tiny engine, to boost will only happen at higher RPM.  If you do a simple set-up with a carb, you can see how well the turbo fits the engine.

The suggestion on the xweb board was to go with one sized for a 1.5 since I am running boost, but I think Suzuki/Geo was 1.0 and 1.3. Need someone expert on Suzuki Geo. I may start a new thread if he is not watching this one.

This project is so cool, following along.

I like the fact your keeping it fiat motor based. I just think for ease of use a Honda b16 from the early 90's is a reverse rotation motor. With a transmission  adapter and the stock ecu it would be a nice little buzzbomb.  Then again if Trent could produce some of those nice suspension parts I've seen on some of the vehicles he's worked on in his shop. That could be one nice handling, quick and stopping surprise to newer cars.

Sorry not trying to toss Trent under the bus. Just some of the parts he's done are effin amazing. Pictures don't do them justice.

Yes, Trent's work is amazing. I agree that doing an engine swap would probably be more over the top, but as I have gotten older, I am taking more of the vintage approach, so sticking with the Fiat engine but applying some fun with the turbo. I am heading more towards using the Webcon Retroject route as it fits the Weber manifold and the injectors can be sized accordingly. Plus they have figured out most of the pieces already, so I am not reinventing the wheel. I am thinking that I convert it to FI first to get it running and then add boost and retune is the best route.

In reply to dherr (Forum Supporter) :

Have you run it long enough to find out the power band of the current camshaft? There were a lot of grinds available in the day, and some are not boost friendly, some are.

TurnerX19 said:

In reply to dherr (Forum Supporter) :

Have you run it long enough to find out the power band of the current camshaft? There were a lot of grinds available in the day, and some are not boost friendly, some are.

Have not, I had to do the brakes first, so now that is almost done, I'll get the car back on the ground and take it for a spin. Unfortunately I have no real history of what has been done except for the performance parts on the car, so likely the engine has been played with to some degree. Engine is a 903, so probably not the original 1969 engine?

Tough call. I think there were a fair number of 903s on dealer lots long enough to get a 69 title. Are the plastic build month tags still on the door jambs? When these were new cars I was working on them, I did a fair number of full engine builds, as did my father a little earlier. Always prior to 40k miles. Usually because oil changers didn't clean out the crank pulley cover. Or didn't change it often enough. We are so spoiled today with modern filters.

@TurnerX19 you prompted me to stop being lazy and test the compression on my 903. Tank is empty so these are cold numbers but not so good....

1-110
2-90
3-95
4-110

Starts right up and runs fine but definitely tired. So looks like I will need to tear down the motor and probably bore it out and new pistons/rings and bearings. At least that gives me the opportunity to build the bottom for a little more boost. Simple enough pushrod engine and small enough to almost carry to the machine shop. 

In reply to dherr (Forum Supporter) :

Those cold numbers are fine if it has along duration cam. Delete "almost" from your last sentence. If they don't equalize and go over 140 warmed up then it needs help now.

Cool, I put some gas in it tomorrow, warm it up and run the test again.

    Depending on the compression ratio and the cam, those number might be OK.

      The valves might not be perfectly clean, allowing some leakage, a newer fuel injection engine will run a lot cleaner.  This is a old engine, with questionable tuning, mixture control.

      I would just add the turbo, with a carb and fuel ratio gauge, and see how it works, then you can make improvements.   Make it work, have a little fun with it, then figure out how to make it better.

     Doing a full engine disassembly now, means it will be months before it will run again.

In reply to TED_fiestaHP :

When these were nearly new cars Pop and I used to rebuild a small Fiat in under 25 man hours including R&R. That included our in house cylinder head and valve machining, not block machining or head deck. Tack weld the crank shaft plugs if you have to remove them too! You really do too. 

  Well now you could spend some time just finding all the required parts, the 850 is getting somewhat rare.   Also I am sure he won't do a stock rebuild, and that always adds time.

    I think the reverse  rotation Honda engine would be the EW 3 valve, not sure how many other Honda engine are like that.  The 3 valve is a odd engine with little after market support, only a few being used in a performance type application.  I don't think anyone outside SCCA H production class racing uses that engine.  For example the valve stem dia is a odd size not used anywhere else.

So the decision is made as to the injection system, as I found a new Webcon system here in the states, so saving on shipping and markup.

Also ordered an adapter to get the Webcon to bolt to the Abarth manifold, which is setup for the smaller DMTL/DATR Weber two barrel.  So with the fuel injection figured out, next steps will be to find an ECU kit, leaning towards the MaxxECU Mini for simplicity and keeping the distributor (locked mechanical advance and a pertronix) to handle the ignition timing for phase 1.

So two updates, almost have the braking system replaced, ended up pulling everything in the front braking system and running new lines as not only was the "Safety Brakers" hacked into the front lines, but they had used hardware store compression fittings. Not safe and was probably on the car for the last 40 years. I have replaced most of the lines, flex lines, master, calipers and rear cylinders and shoes, so hopefully good as new or better.

I have pretty much decided on using a MaxxECU Mini for the FI and ignition and have also decided to ditch the distributor and run a proper 4 coil wasted spark system. Found a tuner that works with smaller engines (motorcycles) and they will do the base tune and help me once it is up and running.

So the plan is to button up the brakes, drive it around to see how it all is working for now, and then if the compression numbers are solid once it is warmed up, I can move forward on doing the conversion. I have 80% of the parts for the turbo conversion, so just need to chase down a few remaining items.

Cool, moving along nicely! Put up a vid when you take it for a run? 

Rad!