In reply to NickD :
And who, honestly, can notice a difference of 0.2 seconds to 60? Except maybe the cop, who isn't that fast to begin with?
This reminds me of the people complaining about extra ounces on Miata wheels. Yes, yes, I'm sure you're perfectly calibrated butt dyno can feel the difference of an ounce per wheel, or in this case, 1/5 of a second.
In reply to RevRico :
I agree, that the difference is negligible, but it's still kind of surprising/disheartening that it isn't at least faster. If all the hybrid stuff adds that much weight but doesn't make it any faster, despite the big power gain, what's the point of adding it to begin with?
In reply to NickD :
Because ICE is a dying breed. New technology needs to be developed and refined, whether it's hybrid, electric, hydrogen or corn. I will mourn the slow death of ICE, but things change.
I also agree that very few people will notice a .2 sec difference in 0-60. Even with that, it's still damn fast for a big family sedan.
TBH I'd like it more if it was just a good EV. These performance hybrids seems like the worst of both worlds.
Whether or not an electrified future would be fast was never in question. Fast does not mean better though. This does nothing to promote an electrified future as being better.
RevRico said:Has the M5 ever even been considered light weight in the first place? I always thought it was a heavy, opulent pig that just had the power turned up.
You don't buy an M5 because you want a kart, you buy it for the status and the luxury.
BMW was apparently disappointed with the weight of the E39 M5. It was almost 4000 lbs! But it can dance too, it's not just an opulent pig. It's got a beautiful engine and is actually pretty effective on track besides being an autobahn eater.
I bought one because it felt like one of those rare cars where the engineers got to do exactly what they wanted to do. It feels considerably more special than the 540. It's the perfect size for a real car - big enough for four adults without being gross.
The E39 M5 has already established it's place in history as one of the greatest cars ever made. Every model since has failed to live up to it, despite being objectively faster and "better" in many ways.
I wonder what the expected buyer for this is like. If you want a powerful V8 sedan, there are a few options at this price point that skip the sterile EV stuff. If you want EV stuff, then skip the ICE and get a Model S, Lucid, Taycan, Audi GT, etc. And if you just want a fast car, then $120-150k gets you all kinds of options.
The weight is disheartening for a number of reasons. I don't care about the performance that much, I'm never going to buy one. I do care that it's going to chew up our roads even faster, as do all heavy vehicles. EVs and performance hybrids are some of the worst offenders (weight, and wear due to acceleration potential) and they don't even give back (no taxes as of yet). This will change in time but for now at least, it's a problem.
The difference between a 4000 and 5400 lb car for road damage is negligible. What tears them up are 80,000 lb trucks.
And in Colorado, at least, your registration fees do scale with vehicle weight.
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:RevRico said:Has the M5 ever even been considered light weight in the first place? I always thought it was a heavy, opulent pig that just had the power turned up.
You don't buy an M5 because you want a kart, you buy it for the status and the luxury.
Exactly. It's a high-speed panzer made for the autobahn. It's not a small, nimble track car.
Why are we bashing the M5 for not being a small and nimble kart? It's not supposed to be. If you want a small and nimble kart, BMW has one. Porsche has one. The M5 is supposed to be big, and with size will come the weight. Take into consideration how big the car is, by design, then evaluate it accordingly. To me, this is like bashing a Boxster because it can't carry 4 suitcases while towing your 40' RV.
I agree that the M5 isn't supposed to be a small, nimble go-kart. My issue isn't that the car is "so heavy", per se. My issue is that unless you're into low-speed fuel economy in that price range, it appears to be a fundamentally inferior car to the car it's replacing, for more money. Same chassis. Same ICE powertrain. Same interior (I'm sure there's some minor refresh, but essentially the same). It's the same car... except now, it's slower... and handles worse than before, undoubtedly (1000 extra pounds never helps)... and they're charging you an extra $10,000 for it.
Several of the hybrid supercars are very fast. I'm not doubting that the addition of an electric motor or 2 can increase acceleration. My issue is that in this case, not only did the car not get faster, it legitimately got slower... and they're charging you more money for it.
I'm not in the "EV's are garbage, get off of my lawn" crowd. I owned a Tesla Model 3 Performance for about 1.5 year(s). I know EV's are incredibly fast. When I bought it, with all the state and federal tax breaks, my former Tesla M3P was undoubtedly the fastest new car I could buy for the money... whereas making the M5 a hybrid actually made it slower, while driving up costs and complexity for the consumer.
I don't expect an M5 to be a lightweight Miata combatant... but when they add an electric motor or 2 to one of their performance vehicles, I suppose I expect it to actually go faster that the non-hybrid version, otherwise, it just seems like backwards thinking for a performance oriented car. But hey, I'm not their target audience, so what do I know?
roninsoldier83 said:I don't expect an M5 to be a lightweight Miata combatant... but when they add an electric motor or 2 to one of their performance vehicles, I suppose I expect it to actually go faster that the non-hybrid version, otherwise, it just seems like backwards thinking for a performance oriented car. But hey, I'm not their target audience, so what do I know?
I agree it's embarassing for BMW to have a new M5 that is slower than the old one, even with all the fancy new tech.
That said, it's possible that legislation and regulation make the old design impossible to sell going forwards, similar to what we saw with American cars in the 70s.
In reply to roninsoldier83 :
Same chassis or no, it also is apparently 4 inches longer and 3 inches wider than the outgoing model. It's now 200.6 inches long and 77.6 inches wide. I fully understand that external dimensions have grown on pretty much everything, but that's more than 12 inches longer, 7 inches wider, and 3 inches taller than the E39 equivalent.
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:RevRico said:Has the M5 ever even been considered light weight in the first place? I always thought it was a heavy, opulent pig that just had the power turned up.
You don't buy an M5 because you want a kart, you buy it for the status and the luxury.
Exactly. It's a high-speed panzer made for the autobahn. It's not a small, nimble track car.
Why are we bashing the M5 for not being a small and nimble kart? It's not supposed to be. If you want a small and nimble kart, BMW has one. Porsche has one. The M5 is supposed to be big, and with size will come the weight. Take into consideration how big the car is, by design, then evaluate it accordingly. To me, this is like bashing a Boxster because it can't carry 4 suitcases while towing your 40' RV.
We arent bashing it for not being a small and nimble kart, we are bashing it for weighing more than a pickup truck. Youre not arguing against anyone, you made up a position then argued against it. There is a lot of space between a light and nimble kart and a full size sedan that weighs more than a truck
In reply to Driven5 :
Maybe I'm mistaken about the new M5 being built on the same chassis as old one- that's a noticeable jump in size. I just assumed they were built on the same chassis as none of the press releases I read said anything about an all-new chassis, which it seems most manufacturers are quick the share when applicable.
I agree that's a huge jump in size vs the E39. At this point, BMW could probably badge it as an M7.
Keith Tanner said:The difference between a 4000 and 5400 lb car for road damage is negligible. What tears them up are 80,000 lb trucks.
And in Colorado, at least, your registration fees do scale with vehicle weight.
Same in PA. Annual fee for my passenger cars is $50. My 2500 Cummins was $154 10 years ago (just checked - now $202/year). Although there are odd quirks in the system. My E350 diesel conversion van weighs every bit as much as the truck but because it's designed to carry people, it's actually titled as a "station wagon" and has the same $50 annual registration fee as my cars.
I don't think we're really picking on the M5 but just lamenting the weight increases of vehicles in general. Everything weighs more.
In reply to Opti :
Maybe I misread the thread, it seemed like a lot of comments about it not being small and light. We're fat shaming the poor thing 
.
I don't necessarily like it being heavy, but it's right in line with its competition. Check the curb weight on the Audi RS7 or Porsche Panamera hybrid.
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:I don't necessarily like it being heavy, but it's right in line with its competition. Check the curb weight on the Audi RS7 or Porsche Panamera hybrid.
Historically Audis have weighed a couple hundred pounds more than comparable BMWs (mostly due to them all having quattro), but the RS6 is just a mild hybrid with no electric-only capability so it "only" weighs 4900.
What I want to know is it fun to drive like the older cars or is it just a modern lead sled that has no sole. Older cars from BMW, Mercedes, Porsche & Audi all had unique feels to them when you drove them. Has this been carried over in to the EV generation or are they all the same?
I guess what I want to know is this new M5 just another take on a Tesla or is it still a BMW.
EDIT: Looking back at the post title I also want to know if the new BMW will be a good car. Every EV in the performance car market is fast. But are they good? Do they have that in tangible thing that makes the fanboys of a given brand want to drive it. I am betting it is nothing like my E60 M5. Or is it? Driving my M5 is a visceral experience. It is not the fastest car I have ever driven. But it is an event every time I drive it.
@ Colin Wood: Have you driven one of these cars?
In reply to roninsoldier83 :
The new m5 does have a new engine & chassis it is now based off the g60 5 series vs the older f30 5 series. While the engine looks the same on paper the s68 is supposed to share very few parts with the n/s63 it replaced.
What I don't like about new m5 & makes me worry a bit about future m cars is that it is no longer a unique engine. I know in today's world it's hard to build a one off engine like the s85 v10 for the e60m, but the fact that it is the same v8 used in the 760i with more hybrid assist is a disappointment. It also looks as though you will no longer be able to get a non m v8 5 series for the first time since the e34. Does this mean the next 3/4 series will only get 4 cylinders & you will need a m3 to get a 6?
In reply to Caperix :
Thanks for the clarification! I guess I figured that since the old G30 had a nearly identical wheelbase to the new G60 (G30=117.2" / 122.2" LWB vs G60=117.9" / 122.2" LWB) they were built on the same architecture/underpinnings. It would appear that the new G60 is now based on the BMW CLAR platform that the 7-series has been based on since ~2015, according to the internet. So it makes sense that they haven't said it was "all-new" since the chassis has been around for almost a decade. I suppose that would help explain some of the car's weight gain as well.
I've got mixed feelings about bespoke engines... I love the F22C in my S2000. Although in the event I needed a replacement motor, they're far more expensive and more difficult to find vs the more commonplace K24, that has similar (higher) power potential levels. Whereas in my lowly 128i, the N52 motor is dirt cheap, can be found at pretty much any junkyard in the country, parts are plentiful and as a result it never causes me a moment of stress. There's something to be said about great mass produced engines. I like the idea of a well-built mass produced engine- like the BMW B58- it's not an M engine, but it's a rocket, has huge power potential, a reputation for reliability and would undoubtedly be easier to source (and cheaper) than a newer S series M engine.
The mass produced versions are typically more reliable as well. Seemingly all of the older E39/E46/E90 M engines had major failure points, most notably rod bearings, whereas their M54 powered and 540i cousins made lesser power, but were considered far more reliable and far less likely to financially cripple you with a massive failure.
nocones said:I don't care how fast it is I just can't get remotely excited about a 5400lb anything that doesn't tow stuff for it's living. I just can't. I know vehicle dynamics. I understand that with power, tires, brakes, and engineering it can be just as fast as something more appropriately weighted.
When the roads are dry. Maybe even, with good tires, when the roads are wet.
How well does it work when it's trying to move its mass through slush and snow. Weight is your enemy there. And those big wide tires you need turn into liabilities, not assets.
Speaking of low grip, heavier cars seem to be a lot less forgiving of exceeding the limits. Light cars scrub off speed a lot more quickly. For an extreme, think about getting a little bit overboard in a kart... you scrub off speed very quickly and you're back in business, albeit slower than you'd hoped for.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:I don't necessarily like it being heavy, but it's right in line with its competition. Check the curb weight on the Audi RS7 or Porsche Panamera hybrid.
Historically Audis have weighed a couple hundred pounds more than comparable BMWs (mostly due to them all having quattro), but the RS6 is just a mild hybrid with no electric-only capability so it "only" weighs 4900.
So 900lb more than an A8? 
I loved D2 chassis A8Ls... the weight of a contemporary A6, but you could play tennis on the floor between the front and rear seats! And that interior!!
Pete. (l33t FS) said:I loved D2 chassis A8Ls... the weight of a contemporary A6, but you could play tennis on the floor between the front and rear seats! And that interior!!
The current S8 is 5100!
But yeah, the D2 S8 is a cool car indeed. "Something that can shovel a bit" :)
This situation is begging for a back-to-back test day at the FIRM between the outgoing version and the new hybrid. Which is more important...200 extra oomph or 1000 lbs?
The math says you get 33% more motivation against 23% more heft. So the new car should accelerate quicker...but it doesn't. So something else is at work there.
And 1000 lbs isn't going to help handling any, unless it is super low and lowers the cg height...as in most full EVs. The extra bits on a hybrid are typically at or above the cg height.
My oldest offspring just bought a new 4-series plug-in hybrid...the base model, so less power. I drove it. Acceleration is meh, handling is typical BMW...but heft is clearly there. It's perfect for her (she's a renewables attorney).
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