When building a 3 link on a live axle, how important is it for the 3rd link to be centered? Will it affect handling it’s it’s off center?
When building a 3 link on a live axle, how important is it for the 3rd link to be centered? Will it affect handling it’s it’s off center?
Not important-what locates the axle side to side?
Actually, putting the third link offset to the side that would be lifted due to input torque, you can use the device to reduce or eliminate torque wedge. There have been some old articles in Racecar Engineering and I think there was a dedicated thread on Corner Carvers that discusses it.
this may at some time save you some searching
slowcamaro said:this may at some time save you some searching
I saw a similar calculation page many years ago- but that's exactly what I was thinking.
That’s the kind of info I needed. Thanks!
Billy Shopes Was an Original RamCharger, Chrysler Engineer And was A Factory Team Member, I Haven't Looked In Years but when Any Chassis Questions come up He has Been Their Done That /With Factory Secrets Galore(For the Sixty's) So Read Billy's Stuff And Belive me It Works.
ChasH said:Not important-what locates the axle side to side?
Explain to me Why NOT. , What or How You Mount A Watts or Panhard Does Matter But Not Nearly as Much As the Lateral Links and Now If you will Go Back and read About Any Chassis book You May see why . Not Trying to be mean but It's of the Utmost Importance.
GTXVette said:ChasH said:Not important-what locates the axle side to side?
Explain to me Why NOT. , What or How You Mount A Watts or Panhard Does Matter But Not Nearly as Much As the Lateral Links and Now If you will Go Back and read About Any Chassis book You May see why . Not Trying to be mean but It's of the Utmost Importance.
First off, we are discussing the upper link. It doesn't matter because it's an solid axle on street tires. Jaguar used an upper link on the right side of their 120C. Alfa uses an upper link on the left side. If you want a further discussion drop the attitude.
sorry, I Was In Shock And I did Say 'Not To Be mean".We Were Answering a Question About An Upper link , and everything from Where it's Mounted to How High Above CL of the Axles to How far Downward/ Angle to where it's Pointing (center of Gravity).and Left or right will Come into play, And also the Lower Links Have these same Functions,By Adj. them you can Make a car Stand on the Back Bumper Or Not be able to Lift the wheels off the ground,The Upper location can also Induce or Eliminate Torque Steer
I’ll be using the stock panhard bar for side-to-side location.
Fitzauto said:I’ll be using the stock panhard bar for side-to-side location.
Have you given thought to the bushings on the ends of all the axle locating parts?
In reply to ChasH :
Currently heim joints on all ends of the 4 link and panhard.
Fitzauto said:In reply to ChasH :
Currently heim joints on all ends of the 4 link and panhard.
You currently have a 4 link rear?
In reply to ChasH :
That is what the car had stock. Swapping in a 8.8 axle.
Not a canoe but I am a Street or Track customer. Link has some pics/video of Shawn's three link system and the installation. It may be helpful.
http://www.streetortrack.com/Street-or-Track-Rear-Bilstein-3-Link-System-pr-24572.html
Fitzauto said:In reply to ChasH :
That is what the car had stock. Swapping in a 8.8 axle.
Why not go with the 4 link?
In reply to ChasH :
Has a tendency to bind up. Options are either equal length upper arms or 3 link, which I’ve been told works a little bit better when designed right.
The upper arm on the 3-link in my Fairmont is just slightly off-center to the right, most likely for packaging. The axle mount for the upper arm on my '71 full-size Ford wagon is the same piece of steel that the Panhard rod mounts to, so it's pretty far right. It's not terribly important where a single upper link is, but right is better than left, if the engine turns counter clockwise.
Fitzauto said:In reply to ChasH :
Has a tendency to bind up. Options are either equal length upper arms or 3 link, which I’ve been told works a little bit better when designed right.
Yup, the 4 links need to be equal length if the ends are "Heim" joints. You can help that by using urethane bushings in an upper link.
Fitzauto said:In reply to ChasH :
Has a tendency to bind up. Options are either equal length upper arms or 3 link, which I’ve been told works a little bit better when designed right.
There are some installations of four links that could bind, but those are really more because of poor detail design. A double-triangulated four link or satchell link with eight rod end bearings WILL NOT BIND, all the way up until the individual rod ends reach the limits of swivel travel. And an added bonus is that you don't have lateral axle motion from a panhard. You might be surprised to learn that the fastest autocross car in the country is using a satchell link suspension.
It really isn't even more work to do a four link vs three link w/ panhard.
ChasH said:Fitzauto said:In reply to ChasH :
Has a tendency to bind up. Options are either equal length upper arms or 3 link, which I’ve been told works a little bit better when designed right.
Yup, the 4 links need to be equal length if the ends are "Heim" joints. You can help that by using urethane bushings in an upper link.
This is just wrongity wrong.
freetors said:ChasH said:Fitzauto said:In reply to ChasH :
Has a tendency to bind up. Options are either equal length upper arms or 3 link, which I’ve been told works a little bit better when designed right.
Yup, the 4 links need to be equal length if the ends are "Heim" joints. You can help that by using urethane bushings in an upper link.
This is just wrongity wrong.
I concur. Urethane on your 4 link is exactly the worst thing if you're trying to avoid bind.
snailmont5oh said:freetors said:ChasH said:Fitzauto said:In reply to ChasH :
Has a tendency to bind up. Options are either equal length upper arms or 3 link, which I’ve been told works a little bit better when designed right.
Yup, the 4 links need to be equal length if the ends are "Heim" joints. You can help that by using urethane bushings in an upper link.
This is just wrongity wrong.
I concur. Urethane on your 4 link is exactly the worst thing if you're trying to avoid bind.
Well, what would you experts recommend then?
Fitzauto said:When building a 3 link on a live axle, how important is it for the 3rd link to be centered? Will it affect handling it’s it’s off center?
The more compliant the bushings are, the more you will notice the link being off center because the torque will be resolved more towards one lower link than the other instead of equally, so that side's lower will compress more under load.
Also, instant center will be dependent more on which direction the body is rolling. I also have a gut feeling that the instant center will affect that SIDE more than the other, but I could be wrong.
So, yes, you do kinda want to get it as centered as space will practically allow.
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