The smart has a funny accelerator pedal with a detent. Push it hard and you'll feel a click and more torques. You'll quickly learn to push the pedal with assertion when you mean it. In the Brabus edition the detent disappears, but the don't sell the Brabus tune in the US for some reason.
Bryce
Sorry to hear the deals aren't appealing there. Try widening your scope. When I got my Leaf, I literally shopped coast to coast. In fact, even though I'm in Pennsylvania, I very nearly got my car from California. The deal the CA dealership was offering would have been cost effective, even adding shipping in. Last minute, a local dealer offered to beat the deal and I jumped.
I haven't driven the i-Miev, but I've sat in them. They look and feel very flimsy compared to the Leaf. So does the Smart.
As for taking long trips with them, that's not what they're really intended for. I don't take it anywhere that I wouldn't have enough battery to get there and back without recharging. That may sound restrictive, but it's really not. In summer I have a range of 100 miles if I use all country roads, and maybe 70 if I do all highway. In the coldest of winter (5F) that range drops 25-30%. However, 95%+ of my driving is 50 miles round trip or less. So the number of times the Leaf can't meet my needs is very small...maybe twice in the 7 months I've had it.
Nashco wrote:DrBoost wrote: You guys are talking about hitting charging stations while out and about. How long do you need to charge? It seems terribly inconvenient to HAVE to charge a few times while on a day trip to the beach or something.I posted a trip log at the top of page 9 with specific time for charging referenced. If you're on an adventure, stopping to eat or doing some shopping doesn't seem terribly inconvenient. When you drive your gas car for adventures, don't you stop to eat, refuel, buy supplies, use the restroom, etc.? You'd be surprised how quickly you adapt to the charging routine and multitask when you know where and how long you'll be stopped. Heck, even when I'm "just waiting" I still taking advantage of the time and call friends or family I haven't talked to in a while, which I think is still time well spent. Bryce
I guess it’s just not for me. If I’m already stopping AND can charge (you have to coordinate eats and free charging stations??) at the same time, it’s no biggie, but how much charge can you get in 15-20 minutes? Now, it works for you and that’s awesome. I’m glad people are embracing this technology, that’s the only way it’s going to progress to the point that just about everybody can embrace it.
One question though:
On Page 9 Nashco wrote: We drove about 230 miles for the day. Our longest leg was 83 miles at 60 mph, a stretch on our Leaf. We charged 3 times for a total of about 70 minutes (30 minutes while we got lunch on the way there, 20 minutes while we got coffee on the way back, and 20 minutes while we sat in the car) during the day. These stops were all at AV fast charge stations, which are currently free to use. Had we taken our Saturn Sky (best gas mileage in our fleet), it would have cost us about $25 in gas and saved us 30 minutes.
Those stops you made, would you have made those same stops (same length) if you were driving a gasser?
In reply to DrBoost:
No, I don't think it would work for you. I don't think you'd make it to the Redford theater and back in cold weather, for example. Or downtown.
The other thing I've noticed from this thread - the charging infrastructure in the PNW is light-years ahead of ours. The DC fast-charging Bryce talks about, that provides an 80% charge in 30 minutes? There is a grand total of one station like that in the state of Michigan - at Nissan in Farmington. So any on-the-road charging will be at a level 2 station, of which there aren't enough either. At a level 2 charger, you'd get about 25% capacity charged per hour.
My Leaf is still in the shop, but good news is, the heater parts should arrive today and I should get it back in working order early next week.
Sucks to have an issue with the heater. Knock on wood, mine has been fine. Only issue I've had/have is the psychotic heated steering wheel. If I don't manually turn it on/off it'll get really hot then shut off and not come back on. I'm not alone with this issue and Nissan says it's not a problem. Whatever.
The charging infrastructure in the northeast is essentially non-existent. The closest DC fast charge is 80 miles from me, so it's worthless. There are several car dealers that have Level 2 chargers...most dealers that sell EVs do. The Chevy dealer 3 miles from me is very nice and doesn't care if I charge my Nissan there. However, since I have Level 2 at home, I just find it a lot easier to charge here. I'd love to see the infrastructure improve here, but it's definitely not a need for me. It's all about lifestyle. If you don't make long trips often, an EV makes sense. If you do, then it doesn't.
In reply to Klayfish:
Yes, living within a 20 mile radius of essentially everything of note in the metro area makes it simple to own and drive an electric car, especially with L2 at home. I didn't think it would be necessary, and planned to trickle charge overnight. That would have been a mistake.
You could live further from work if you could reliably charge at work, but even at one of Detroit's major employers with provided deck parking, I don't get that.
DrBoost wrote:Nashco wrote: We charged 3 times for a total of about 70 minutes (30 minutes while we got lunch on the way there, 20 minutes while we got coffee on the way back, and 20 minutes while we sat in the car) during the day. These stops were all at AV fast charge stations, which are currently free to use. Had we taken our Saturn Sky (best gas mileage in our fleet), it would have cost us about $25 in gas and saved us 30 minutes.Those stops you made, would you have made those same stops (same length) if you were driving a gasser?
I wouldn't have made the last, 20 minute stop, and I could have saved 10 minutes getting coffee and 10 minutes getting lunch. But I would have had to stop for 10 minutes to get gas. That's why I said I took about 30 minutes longer for that particular drive with multiple charging stops. To clarify, I'm using DC fast chargers for these stops, so in 30 minutes I can get about 50-60 miles of range in the Leaf. As mentioned, these aren't everywhere...but they are here!
I'm not here telling people EVs are for everybody, because they're not. I work for a trucking company, I understand that not all vehicles can be EVs! However, I also try to make sure people understand what current EV technology IS capable of, as most people are ignorant and are usually pretty surprised when I tell them the kind of trips I've taken with our EV. Many people seem to think you'd need to spend big bucks on something like a Tesla, and even then still have to make sacrifices...but in the real world, it's not so extreme.
My wife and I both drive EVs for daily drivers. Portland and the NW in general has great EV infrastructure. My employer has charging stations at work, so even guys that have a 50 mile one way commute can have an EV and make the round trip no problem (makes for an awesome financial case for those with a long commute). I live in the city and work in the city, same as my wife. For us, EVs makes a ton of sense. It's very easy to live with an EV for most people...the tough part isn't living with an EV, it's getting people to try it out and see for themselves!
Plug-in hybrids are a great substitute for those who can't get an EV to fit their usage, but of course with the added complexity and capability comes added cost (and weight, etc.).
Bryce
I thought this was a good thread to say I just got a 2000 Insight, so berkeley you gas!
We went for our annual coast trip with friends last weekend, and only had to stop once each direction, in the town where we usually grab lunch both coming and going.
The only part that was a little worrisome was that we weren't familiar with doing the drive in this car, so found ourselves not running the heat and being judicious with the defrost after deciding not to stop at the other available DCQC station 2/3 of the way there. In the end, we pulled into the rental house with 19% of a charge remaining, so we needn't have worried so much.
On the way back it was even easier, as the longer leg is between the coast and the lunch stop, and we were leaving with 100% of a charge instead of 93%. The quick chargers get you to 80% fast, but charging slows after that; we had 93% after stopping for a slice of pizza and grabbing a cup of coffee for the road; about 20 minutes or so, but we'd only used 37% of a charge getting to the stop. We surely spent more time getting from 80 to 93 than from 63 to 80.
We had fun with the novelty just because we hadn't really taken a trip in an electric car yet, but it was once again mostly remarkably unremarkable. Actually, the largest inconvenience is that the rental house has four parking spots, two in the driveway and two in the garage. In order to plug in, we had to take a garage spot. But I'm about the twitchiest, antsiest person in our group. Since there was always someone parked behind me in the driveway, I ended up borrowing my friend's Fit for most of my little errands.
As an aside, after getting used to the Leaf, the Fit felt thrashy and tinny in a way that I didn't recall it being at all; it was actually a near miss to get one of those instead of the WRX, we'd like the Fit so much. And theirs only has about 5k miles on it... EDIT: I should add that I'm still spending a bunch of time in a gas-powered vehicle, so it's not entirely the Fit having pistons that's thrown me. One side effect of my girlfriend being so fond of the Leaf is that I mostly drive the Dodge cargo van...
mw wrote: So far I've driven the Leaf and the smart Ed. The leaf was really nice, but the prices here are stupid. We get an $8500 government subsidy on electric cars and they still want $378 a month for a four year lease (using the $8500 as down payment). You guys were getting $199 lease rates. I went to see the smart. I was annoyed because I called the day before and asked if they had one I could drive, they said yes to come in and I told them I would be in today. I showed up 20 min after the dealer opened. The only one they had for me to drive had only 20% of a charge left on the battery. The sales guy didn't even mention it to me. I couldn't get the car to go over 80km/h no matter what I tried. I'm not sure if it was because if the low battery or what, but I wasn't impressed. I'll go to the other smart dealer and drive one. I'm done with this one. The dealer wants $298 a month for 39 months after the $8500 subsidy. I wish I could get the $139 price they advertise in the states... I'm thinking it's not going to be worth it for me to buy one based on the 'deals' I'm finding.
My wife has a Smart EV. It's OK. Decently quick when you floor it but it's more of a toy car. I think the Leaf would be a better drive.
Look into the new GM Chevy Spark. They also have an electric version and it seems pretty frickin cool. 400 ft/lbs of torque!
That said, running the heater or A/C really affects driving range on electrics. If you do a lot of highway driving, speed also affects range. My wife has to keep the smart at 65 and under on the highway and be careful with HVAC in order to get the range she wants/needs.
As mentioned above, you have to do more planning when driving EVs so that you are informed about availability of infrastructure. Gas filling stations are so plentiful that this is a total change of mindset. I don't particularly enjoy it. I'd love some hydrogen powered vehicles and infrastructure!
If it wasn't for the ~$200 lease deals here in CA and the fact that we get to use the HOV lanes with an EV, I'd have a regular piston engined car that gets good MPG - Mazda3 or Hyundai/Kia were my top picks. If you are looking for better than 40 MPG, hybrids work - Prius, Hyundai and Ford have some interesting options. The Fords seem particularly interesting since reviews say that they are more fun to drive than the Prius.
I'm still enjoying the Volt. It's a cool car but pricey. We'll see what new cars are available when the lease ends.
I have the Chevy Spark EV. It's the bees knees for us GRM types. Quickest EV you can get that's not a Tesla, and one of the cheapest to boot! It may be even quicker next year, as they're upping the gear ratio from 3.17 to 3.87. The handling is pretty good for an econobox, but the crap tires it comes with are certainly making it hard to push the limits too far and the invasive stability control is almost always active with crappy tires in the cold, wet, gravel covered roads we're dealing with right now.
Unfortunately, GM is really limiting inventory. Currently only sold in CA and OR, and even there the supply is being limited so the dealers sell them faster than they can get them in stock. People are buying the Spark EV from dealers in CA and shipping them to where they live in the US, which is completely legal and won't affect warranty, etc...so it's just a hoop GM forces people in other states to jump through. Supposedly it will be sold to fleets in Canada, but I don't think that's started yet, just press releases.
I've already started the mods on my Spark EV. I'll probably start a build thread next week.
Bryce
amg_rx7 wrote: I'm still enjoying the Volt. It's a cool car but pricey. We'll see what new cars are available when the lease ends.
I've recently read rumors of a significant price drop for the next Volt, as well as some other stuff, though that's all still obviously in the mumblings-and-rumors department.
I dig the idea of a Volt for the carefreeness regarding range, but the Leaf is working out so well (in our EV-infrastructure-rich region, and almost-entirely urban driving) I'm not sure we'd go that way anyhow. Also, a focus on keeping it as light as possible probably argues against adding the 2-3" of rear seat legroom addition we'd need to make it a real four-door for four adults.
For those that have an EV and are making them work: good for you!! I wish I could, but one day I will be able to. Maybe the infrastructure we see in the PNW will spread since it's actually being used. Keep the posts coming guys.
Are people still buying the Rav4 EVs from California and shipping them home or has Toyotas scheduled maintenance stubbornness shut that down?
Toyota has been a real pain in the neck with the RAV4EV. It's very obvious they don't like EVs.
Bryce
I finally drove a Mitsu i-miev today. I don't want this to sound negative, but it's a very cheap car and not really comparable to a Leaf by most measures. I am very glad it exists. It's extremely cheap to get into one. In fact, other than another, cheaper Mitsubishi, there's not much chance of getting another new car out the door much cheaper than an i-miev. I really like that aspect of the car. But, i do think it has very narrow appeal. It is the super-base super-small stripper econobox of the EV world.
Now i want to drive a Mirage.
Curious....what lease price did they offer you on the i-Miev? Around here, they're priced the same as the Leaf or higher. And at least from sitting in one I'd agree they're the stripper-econobox of EVs.
Vigo wrote: I finally drove a Mitsu i-miev today. I don't want this to sound negative, but it's a very cheap car...
Have you seen that for 2014 model year they have made a bunch of enhancements AND lowered the price? I think you should try again in a few months and see if you feel the same way.
Bryce
I was never seriously considering buying one. I drove a 2012 that came through the auction shop i work at. Apparently the highest bid offered for that car is ~14.5k, which seems crazy since the new, cheaper ones are 15k and change brand spanking new.
One of the things i didnt like about the car is that, unlike a leaf, it wont let you have enough torque at low speeds to engage in hooliganism. Maybe this is because it's RWD and top heavy, but without that option, the size/proportions/driving experience basically feels like a cross between a car and a golf cart. I mean, there is a reason Japan doesn't import their GAS powered Kei cars to the USA and making it electric doesnt change all that much as far as it being a tiny, goofy, tinfoil-feeling car that isnt fast, roomy, good looking, or sporty in any way. If you need a cheap, electric city car to parallel park in a cramped urban center and not spew hydrocarbons while sitting at a complete stop in mind-numbing traffic, it will be perfect for you. But Texas is not Japan. 
Another 300 mile weekend in the Leaf. Jessica and I took a delayed Valentine's weekend trip to the beach. Word on the street is that the Aerovironment DC chargers will no longer be free starting in April and Jessica loves the ocean, so it seemed like a good excuse to take advantage of another free-to-me roadtrip in the Leaf.
We left Saturday morning with a full charge and a pre-heated car. Our route down went something like this:
Leg 1: Home to Spirit Mountain Casino (65 miles), 15 minute DC fast charge while taking a bathroom break, then a quick trip through the touchless car wash Leg 2: Spirit Mountain Casino to Baywood Shores Bed and Breakfast (35 miles).
We drove around town with stops at the beach, Humble Pie Pizzaria (tasty!), and back to the bed and breakfast. The beach was really nice, so we spent quite a while there taking advantage of the nice weather.
We charged for 30 minutes at the DC fast charger while waiting on our pizza only two blocks away. Another Leaf rolled in literally as we pulled out, perfect timing! The hosts at the hotel were happy to let us plug our 110V charger in overnight, which allowed us to start the day off with a full charge and a warm car in the morning again.
Leg 3: Baywood Shores Bed and Breakfast to Tillamook fast charger (45 miles), 20 minute DC fast charge while I talk to a friend on the phone who needs a favor and wanted to talk about my Vanagon being on Bring A Trailer.
Leg 4: Tillamook to Cannon Beach fast charger (45 miles), 1.5 hours at the DC fast charger to get a really full battery. We stopped along the way to sight see, as the ocean looked pretty cool with the wind and drizzle.
We played pool and ate an eclair while the car charged. I don't normally wait so long at the fast chargers, but this was in preparation for the first time I went over the mountain pass between Cannon Beach and Banks, OR, so I was being super conservative. Unfortunately, this charger is about a half mile from town and had no cell service, so it was admittedly boring waiting here, but I figured it was better to wait than to run out of juice on the new-to-me route. The DC chargers are very fast to charge up to 80%, but after that they slow down...when using the heater, this takes even longer.
Leg 5: Cannon Beach to Banks fast charger (55 miles), 15 minute charge while we took a bathroom stop and the liquor store to get a gift for our friend who was the dog sitter for the weekend. This leg was a little sketchy, as I said above I was being very conservative. Turns out, I arrived with 20 miles of range left, so I could have gone faster and used more heat than I did...but of course I don't regret playing it safe! Good to know that come summer time, this will be an easy leg when no heat is required despite the mountain pass (which spooks you on the uphill with massive charge consumption, but gives quite a bit back to you on the downhill). Next time I do this route, I expect I would probably drive the same manner and only charge to 80%ish rather than waiting for the slow battery top-off.
Leg 6: Banks to home (30 miles), had way more charge than we needed so we hauled butt on the last leg, a good feeling after being so cautious on the mountain pass.
All in all, we drove about 300 miles for the weekend and didn't pay to charge on the whole trip. The drive took about 2 hours longer than it would have if we had a gas car, the obvious majority of that being me topping the battery off in Cannon Beach before the mountain pass. I figure I could shave it down to only one hour extra instead of two knowing what I know about climbing the mountain pass.
We're starting to plan a big adventure for next month on perhaps our last free-to-me roadtrip before the Aerovironment chargers add a fee. This one will be about 600 miles in a weekend and include crossing a mountain pass twice, so it should be a real test of the Leaf and my EV-strategery.
Bryce
Nashco wrote: Leg 1: Home to Spirit Mountain Casino (65 miles), 15 minute DC fast charge while taking a bathroom break, then a quick trip through the touchless car wash
Are you guys out in Beaverboro? It worked out well for us to stop in McMinnville as a lunch stop, and made it to Lincoln City pretty easily in the end. But it might be handy in future to know we could opt to do our stop closer to the coast to wind up there with more range in hand (obviously we could stop both places at a small cost in time if we needed the range)... But coming from inner SE Portland, we were pretty uncertain about making Spirit Mountain without a stop.
One year with the Volt and I still love it. Other than the couple longer trips to CT and Maine, I don't go to gas stations more than once every 3-4 months, if that. The trip up to Maine from baltimore for Thanksgiving netted me about 50 mpg, using electric for the stop and go portions of the trip.
Car is quick, handles great, is comfy for long trips (8 hours in the saddle is a good indicator of how comfy the seats are). AC in the summer barely affects the range, and it indicates 45 miles at full charge (though I can get 50-60 miles out of it wiithout hypermiling. I accelerate hard everywhere I go, pretty much. LOVE the 280+ lb ft of torque...). Unfortunately, that drops in the winter to an indicated 30-34 miles at full charge when the temps are below freezing. And the heater will make that range drop fast. In the summer, even with the AC on, it takes me an indicated 2 miles of range to go the actual 8 miles of distance to work. In the winter, it'll use the full indicated 8 miles to do the same trip. So I preheat it in the morning while it's plugged in to get the cabin up to temp, then unplug and drive in Eco mode and I can do the trip on less than 5 miles of indicated range. And when it drops below 20 degrees out, the engine will automatically kick in and idle to heat up the cabin and the main battery pack.
My electric bill averages $8-10/month more with the car than without it, as far as we can tell (though with a new roommate as of this summer, using the washer and dryer more often, the bill went up anyhow)
Of course, it's not without issues. I still hate that it defaults to 8a charge every time you drive it, so that you have to reset it manually in the dash menu to get 12A charging. True, for most of my use, the 8a charge rate is enough to have the car full by the time I get up in the morning, but it would be nice to be able to set the 12a rate as the default so that you could charge faster. This would not be an issue with a Level 2 charger, but I'm not yet ready to plunk down the grand to get that.
And the visibility past the A pillars is still annoying. So much can hide behind the left side A pillar when going around left hand turns or even driving through a parking lot.
But none of that is enough to make me not like the car. And I miss it terribly now that it's been damaged and is in the shop. Some jackass did a hit and run on it, caving in the driver's side rear door and door jamb and quarter panel:
The '12 Impala I'm renting for the week is crude, noisy, and slow in comparison...
Ransom wrote: Are you guys out in Beaverboro? It worked out well for us to stop in McMinnville as a lunch stop, and made it to Lincoln City pretty easily in the end. But it might be handy in future to know we could opt to do our stop closer to the coast to wind up there with more range in hand (obviously we could stop both places at a small cost in time if we needed the range)... But coming from inner SE Portland, we were pretty uncertain about making Spirit Mountain without a stop.
Nope, I'm in North Portland. I prefer to stop at DC fast chargers with a low state of charge, as they charge a heck of a lot faster that way and the trip goes quicker. It also helps to warm the battery up if you're driving in the cold. Obviously, this requires you have a good idea of where you're going and how much battery you'll use to get there. With a pre-heated car and a battery at 100%, 65 miles on flat, rural highways is easy!
Bryce
Chris_V wrote: I still hate that it defaults to 8a charge every time you drive it, so that you have to reset it manually in the dash menu to get 12A charging.
My Chevy Spark EV does the same thing, and it is really annoying. I have a Level 2 and home and work, so the only place I use Level 1 is when I'm at my shop (opportunity charging). I have dedicated 30A and 20A circuits I can use, so I'd love to "set it and forget it" to 12A with my level 1. This is obviously a case where the consumer is expected to be an idiot and GM has chosen a conservative path...which I could understand as a default, but no need to reset this EVERY time I drive the car! Obviously, this is an extremely minor inconvenience all things considered...just annoying.
Bryce
Chris_V wrote: And the visibility past the A pillars is still annoying. So much can hide behind the left side A pillar when going around left hand turns or even driving through a parking lot.
The Leaf and Volt may be different in many ways, but they share this. It's way beyond reasonable, IMHO, and I wish it were possible to get a tally of injuries saved by the structure and airbags vs additional collisions caused by the giant A-pillars.
My left-turning-driver terror as a motorcyclist makes me shudder just thinking about it.
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