Am I the only one who struggles to get over the "great car, but it's an auto" hump?

I had a hard anti-automatic stance for years (helped by having a g/f who also only owned manual transmission cars), but it's softened a bit. I like vans and a manual transmission in a van just isn't practical unless I can figure out how to get a T5 or T56 to be actuated by a column shifter. The shifter on the floor just takes up too much room.

The craptastic 5 spd that was behind my '95 Cummins 4x4 made me wish I had bought an automatic instead. Unfortunately, the previously mentioned SWMBO was insistent on it having a stick. Granted, I generally want 4WD trucks to have manuals anyway, so it wasn't really an argument.

I've accepted that if Volvo ever sees fit to produce the V90 Concept Estate, it will have an automatic and I will buy one anyway.

captdownshift wrote: find me an automatic that has a real life expectancy of beyond 200k miles and maybe I'll start to respect them.

I've said this sort of thing before too - but find me a car I've ever kept for 200k miles and of the 70 or so that have darkened my doorway... I think I've done that maybe 3 times. For me, this is really a false argument for not buying one.

I suppose it makes sense for the used buyer - I wouldn't buy an auto with 150k on it. But, I'm not sure if that is because of the mileage or the fact that a car with an auto isn't something I want - and I never HAVE to buy a used up old car so it better be something I want.

But, on longevity, I think the Allison 5 and 6 speeds in the GM diesel trucks go 300-500k pretty routinely in tow truck and rollback applications.

mad_machine wrote: My rover is my first automatic in over 30 years of driving. It's ok, but I wish it were a manual. I came from driving commercial box trucks, all of them were manual shifting and my favourite was an peterbilt cabover straight truck with a 9 speed trans. You did a LOT of shifting getting up to highway speeds and you could hear the stacks "blat" with each quick shift, but even over half a million miles of driving, it was still a lot of fun to run it up and down the gears

You must not have spent a lot of time in traffic.

I'm a truck driver, last thing I want is to have to row a 10 speed over and over again through hours of Atlanta traffic, no thanks. I'll take an auto for that purpose. No matter how unmanly it appears to the supertruckers.

For a trucker, sure, I completely get it. For our minivan, which of course is an auto, I'm 100% on board. But for a fun car, even when my DD is already a stick, I'm struggling...even if the car is really nice.

Turbos and torque converters are a wonderful match. Especially if it's a trans that has good gear spacing, not an insane number of gears (so it's not shifting constantly) and doesn't get upset/confused when you start rev-matching downshifts.

Although my daily driver is an automatic, I still generally view that even a good automatic detracts somewhat from the driving pleasure on a car, and a bad automatic detracts a lot. Sometimes, though, it doesn't detract enough to ruin an otherwise good deal. My main complaint is that they sap throttle response a lot - a torque converter has a bit of a delay in between giving it gas and any response at the wheels. They tend to be worse behind small engines where the car also ends up feeling significantly slower, and some of the worst automatics leave me feeling as if I have been arguing with the computer the entire trip over what gear the car should be in.

I can make an exception for trucks - at least if they've got a large enough engine that an automatic doesn't sap too much power.

A time and a place for everything. My Honda auto is pretty horrible. The Crown Vic's was alright. I am a big fan of the auto in my dads G37, it shifts when I think "I would shift here".

I'll say that flappy paddles/tiptronic/steptronic is stupid. I haven't found one that I've used more than once; the exception being in our TSX I've used it quite a bit in the snow--but that is really no different than I've used other autos, I just didn't have the option for anything but Drive or Tiptronic, so if I wanted it to hold a lower gear I would have to use it. I am happy that I can start the car in second in that (helpful in the snow)

Huckleberry wrote:

captdownshift wrote: find me an automatic that has a real life expectancy of beyond 200k miles and maybe I'll start to respect them.

I've said this sort of thing before too - but find me a car I've ever kept for 200k miles and of the 70 or so that have darkened my doorway... I think I've done that maybe 3 times. For me, this is really a false argument for not buying one. I suppose it makes sense for the used buyer - I wouldn't buy an auto with 150k on it.

I'm going to cross post this from the E38 thread...

I bought this daily driver E38 Sport at 150k miles, and it has 165k on it now, with the stock steptronic automatic. Perfect trans for the car:

And it should last the life of the car. My last one had 185k on it's original trans and original fluid when I sold it.

I got over the closed minded need to have every car on the planet have a clutch pedal years ago, as there are so many good cars out there with automatics, like my E38s. So I don't have to wiggle my left foot ever few minutes, BFD. I'm in no less control of the car, I'm certainly not a passenger because of no third pedal, and the car is fast, agile, willing dance partner that can also be a comfy cruiser.

Too many wannabe car enthusiasts think that the ONLY way they are in control of a car is if they occasionally move their left foot. Sorry, but it's just not true. It's merely a closed minded way of looking at the automotive world. My GRANDMA could drive standard. Doesn't make you a special snowflake with superhuman abilities.

Do I love a good manual trans? Yes, of course, and I've driven them for decades. The only cars I've ever bought new have had manuals specifically (with one exception, the Volt). But I've had hot rods and muscle cars and trucks with good automatics, including the V8 RX7 with the modified AOD in it that was absolutely killer on the autocross track. My next car will have an automatic in it (primarily because that's the only way they're available) and I have no problems with that.

My rallycross car is a manual. My weekend fun car is a manual. My DD pickup is an auto and I'm fine with it. 99% of the roads around here are straight and flat, until you get into town which has you stopping every 100 feet. Manuals don't really add to the experience in those situations for me.

It all depends on the car. For a tow vehicle, I want an auto for slow maneuvering and boat ramps. For my CLS63, the 7 speed auto suits it's personality and is great for daily drive use. The paddles are there and a little slow to react so I only use them on track, but sport mode on the auto is pretty damn good on track.

For toys, especially that see track use ever, I prefer the control of a manual. In looking for the next car some of the choices are much more common with autos (997tt cab), but I just don't want one. The new generation of double clutch stuff though, I'd take one of those after having driven a new GT3 PDK in anger, it was brilliant.

All the automatics I can afford are the crappy, slow-shifting variety. I feel like an automatic is a tool like a screwdriver, baseball bat, pool cue, that has a section of rubber in the middle. Meaning that the force you want to apply has to be initially absorbed by the tool before it's applied to the work.

Which brings me to my answer as it were: I daily a Yukon AWD and am building a motorcycle for the manual, sporty performance oriented needs I will always have.

Yeah, like others I think it depends on the intended purpose of the car some. I really like manual transmissions, and most of my Craigslist searches reflect that, but I have owned some autos. The Z28 was okay because it had enough power that even in the wrong gear, it would still pull pretty well. Plus, it only had 4 gears (4l60e) so it seemed to have a pretty good chance of finding the right one. I don't usually feel that way about the newer 7 and 8 speeds, but then I've also never driven one with a lot of power in front of it. The Silverado is also a solid auto. I've had both a manual and an auto in that platform, and I do think the auto works well in a truck, in general.

That said, whenever I'm looking for a new car, I look for a manual first. If it can be easily swapped to a manual, that's also acceptable. I really prefer the driving experience and reliability, and I don't drive in traffic often.

Im with Klayfish, I just cannot convince myself that i would ever enjoy driving a manual. My experience may be biased, my first cars were 80s/90s Chevys, so, not a great example. Her DD is a GMC Terrain. The auto isnt terrible, but it still hunts a bit if youre hustling trhough twisties. Its still pretty soul-less overall, but not so bad when youre towing.

I think the reason I want to row-my-own is the connection i feel to the drive. I actually enjoy the concentration. I enjoy heel-toe shifting, even in daily traffic. I feel like the car is an extension of myself, versus an appliance that I casually provide inputs to, while it carries me along...just my 2¢

Im really concerned though. Its going to be another 8 years give or take before I get another new daily (barring unforeseen circumstances), and I have a feeling I may struggle to find a gasoline powered car at that point, let alone a proper gearbox.

Really doesn't make a lot of difference to me. For 7/8 yrs. I had both. My ZX2SR 5sp.and Jeep KJ with automatic.

Both served their purpose, the SR as track day and daily driver and ice racer. The KJ was use primarily as tow vehicle for the SR and occasional back road explorer.

I enjoyed driving both without much thought to what transmission I was driving.

When the "new" Fiesta came out I ordered an SE 5spd hatch. There was much delay in delivery. In the meantime I got interested in the dual clutch transmission. The dealer let me drive one, by myself for an hour. Since my ordered one was lost in the system, I decided to go with the PowerShift. Had the '11 up to 42K miles with no problems when I got totaled. Bought my '13 of the show room floor. Again I am at 43K miles. I see that the newer models have selective shifting. sort of redundant to my thinking. I would have to drive one.

That said, my next car will be a 6 spd manual Fiesta ST. My left leg needs some exercise.

I have 2 of each. DDs are auto and toys are manual. This way wife can drive both DDs and I drive the toys. I do miss the old TH 400, 727 days when autos had fewer gears and would squeak the tires/snap your neck on upshift.

captdownshift wrote: find me an automatic that has a real life expectancy of beyond 200k miles and maybe I'll start to respect them.

Saturn S series auto will easily go 200k. Or several times that amount if the fluid is actually changed. To top it off, its only issues are easily serviced in the car. Valve body is on top of the trans, and input shaft nut can be serviced through the wheel well. Filter is a spin-on filter and it has a traditional drain plug too.

That said, its a terrible terrible thing to drive. I've had one for my DD for the past 6 years. I can stomach it because its silly cheap to own and operate but its replacement will be a manual.

My wife has an manual SUV. It isn't sporty. Its nice to have in the mountains or when negotiating some onramps and trying to keep speed up (which can be difficult with 140hp). Day to day and for her commute, I wish it were an auto. A manual in something slow, top heavy and not-even-remotely-sporty isn't really that fun.

captdownshift wrote: find me an automatic that has a real life expectancy of beyond 200k miles and maybe I'll start to respect them.

not counting the big HD diesel stuff, the 4L80E is a beast. it might be the best 4 speed auto ever as far as strength and longevity.

the 4t60, 4t60e, 4t65e live long happy lives behind any of gm's fwd offerings that aren't the 3800SC or LS4.

4cylndrfury wrote: I think the reason I want to row-my-own is the connection i feel to the drive. I actually enjoy the concentration. I enjoy heel-toe shifting, even in daily traffic. I feel like the car is an extension of myself, versus an appliance that I casually provide inputs to, while it carries me along...just my 2¢

That last is such closed minded, self involved bullE36 M3. Seriously, it is. If you think in my E38 that all I'm doing is casually providing a few inputs about where it's going every once in a while, you're delusional. MOST manual trans nazis are delusional. I'm in as much control of my car as I would be in a manual trans version and it's JUST as much an extension of myself while driving. I've driven manual and automatic cars back to back on the same roads and am tired of the navel gazing bullE36 M3 that revolves around the occasional act of shifting. Having more TO control doesn't make you more IN control or any less of a passenger.

If you think that all driving is is wiggling your left foot occasionally and moving a lever, put that lever and a clutch pedal on your lazyboy at home and get all the enjoyment and control of driving without spending a dime on fuel or car insurance. And to really see what driving entails, go ahead to your manual trans car, put it in gear, let out the clutch (remember, no other controls can be used) and try to get to the store. No brake, no accelerator, no steering wheel. Try it in an automatic car. You'll get to about the same exact place. Why? Because driving means ALL the controls at the same time: steering, braking and accelerating are MORE important than which method of selecting a gear you're using. ALWAYS WILL BE.

Again, I love a good manual trans car, but I got over the "look at me, I'm shifting! Oh, look, I did it again! I'm such a DRIVER!" boasting that manual trans fans tend to be so adamantly doing every time they post about the subject after about my third time shifting when I was 15. Ironic avatar notwithstanding...

bmw88rider wrote: Yes it was. Rare but out there. G37 S Convertible with a stick

As a 4 seat convertable with a manual trans. I think this car could be perfect for me.

patgizz wrote: not counting the big HD diesel stuff, the 4L80E is a beast. it might be the best 4 speed auto ever as far as strength and longevity.

I've got that one in my 8.1 liter Suburban tow rig and I fully expect to get 300k out of it like so many that I know of.

In reply to Chris_V:

Do you ever read what you post aloud before hitting "Reply"?

JohnRW1621 wrote:

bmw88rider wrote: Yes it was. Rare but out there. G37 S Convertible with a stick

As a 4 seat convertable with a manual trans. I think this car could be perfect for me.

Stop it! Stop posting that thing, damn you!!! It's the one car that keeps throwing a monkey wrench into my equation. I've said all along that I want to get a convertible. Miata/Solstice/Sky, which for me manual is the only way to go. BMW 128i 'vert, '11+ Mustang vert if I want a 4 seater. But the G37S keeps circling around in my head. I simply can't afford the 'vert, so it'd have to be a coupe. I even test drove one last week, and it had me all tingly and with a happy. But it's a tin top...and most are autos.

Just depends on it's duty. Since I regularly sit in traffic on my commute, I insist on an auto for my daily. Having foot and back problems pushed me over the edge years ago.

But this is also because I have manual racecar sitting in my garage to satisfy my 3rd pedal urges in anger.

In reply to Klayfish:

Here is my plan...which I have not yet executed.

I have a Miata that I have owned for 20+ years. I have not driven it much the past two summers.

I have a 2 yr old daughter. I would like to get a 4 seat convertible that I could also put the kid into for Ice Cream Runs.

I further think that if I bought this 4 seat convertible, it would only be driven Summers (snow/salt/North) and it would last a long time.

Furthermore, it would be really cool to buy a '14 model because it is the birth year of my daughter and if I carry on that logic, in about 14 more years from now, I would have a 16 year old car. That would be old enough and likely low enough on insurance costs that I could then turn that into my daughter's first car.

Said another way...I think I should by my 2 year old's first car NOW.

PS: I have begun saving for her college education also. Just so you don't think that has been neglected.

Huckleberry wrote: In reply to Chris_V: Do you ever read what you post aloud before hitting "Reply"?

No kidding...

There's no reason to get all huffy about it. Some people prefer manual transmissions and other people like automatics. It's like saying some people are attracted to blondes and others to brunettes - there's no right or wrong, it's just their personal opinion.