Any one else excited? New TVR Griffith!

yupididit said:

dean1484 said:

Super models have been known to come with very high maintenance requirements. Also you actually never get to meet a supermodel. You get to view them from a distance. 

A lot of them are super normal people just like you and I. Their profession is one thing but I promise 99% of them don't see themselves like 99% think they do. Your view from a distance gives you an inaccurate assumption of who/how they are. 

 

Perception maaaaaan.  

I know I know but just let me run with my inaccurate assumption. It makes things more fun even if I am not being PC at the moment.  

Note that all of my comments are about the ND V8, not the earlier cars. That's where our focus is, and they're the cars that are legitimately comparable to something like the new TVR.

First off - our cars have ABS. Anyone who tells you otherwise is plain wrong and I'd love to know where that impression came from. I'm working on getting the dynamic stability control up and running properly, the goal for that is by the end of January. Traction control (aka straight line wheelspin control) is not a priority because the car has massive levels of mechanical traction and a very controllable throttle. No electronic bandaids are required, it's very easy to control wheelspin. Interestingly, the requests for traction/stability control didn't start until the ND showed up.

Also, I suspect our cars are also more rare than the TVR. If they're not, then this incarnation of TVR has about a six month projected lifespan. If the new company is even semi-legit, they will build more prototypes than we've built finished cars because they have to figure out chassis production, interior production, crash safety, airbags, ergonomics - all the stuff that we let a full scale OE do for us.

But they are sleepers. I'm thinking of building another halo car for the shop that will be a little more...dramatic...but it will always be possible to tell that it's based on one of the best handling cars on the market  It's got a completely new drivetrain, new braking system, reinforced chassis, new steering, new suspension, fuel system, cooling system, custom electronics - but since it looks like a Miata it'll never be viewed as anything but a modified Miata to a lot of people. I'm trying to figure out how we can change that perception. The journalists who drive it are always impressed how much it feels like a production car. 

Yupididit puts a value of $18k of our car over a stock Miata. That's just depressing. An extra 350 hp and 400 lbs of torque, a much more robust drivetrain, custom long-travel suspension, improved grip and without losing any of the mod cons (other than wheelspin control)...and it's worth $18k to him. Hell, GM gets to charge an extra $25k for the Z06 over the Stingray and they're basically the same car other than the addition of a supercharger. 

As for what TVR is the real TVR - I guess that's the eye of the beholder. To me, it's the exceptional cars of the late Wheeler era. They had the strongest identity and were the biggest standouts. The production numbers were much higher than earlier cars. They were also the most ambitious and like all TVRs, fundamentally crap. But dramatic crap! Since a lot of North Americans only know TVR from Gran Turismo and Swordfish, it's the 90's cars that they'll be compared to. Even in the UK, the Sagaris et al will be what people remember, not cars from a quarter century ago.

Every time a V8 Miata comes up for sale, it gets compared to a used Z06 because they have the same engine but are very different cars. The TVR and our cars are much, much closer in size (I assume), weight, power and general design so it's a good comparison. Even before there was a "new TVR" I used to characterize our car as a modern TVR without the reliability problems. Anyhow, this is interesting. I've been looking at if it's worth trying make the FM ND V8s a more serious part of the business. This discussion makes me think not.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Keith thought I heard the lack of ABS in the Smoking Tire video. Sorry for putting that out there, my mistake. I’ll edit my previous post to note this. 

If it makes any difference to you I’d take a FM over a vette, 911, lambo, or Ferrari. But I’d take a TVR, cayman, and gt350 over a FM. My list doesn’t make any sense sorry. I really hope you keep making the FM cars and didn’t mean to start a thread to discourage you. 

Is it at all feasible for you guys to build a ground up small volume car? A kit car? I think you guys would absolutely kill it with a clean sheet of paper. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Have you ever though of trying to create a relationship with Mazda like Dinan did with BMW. I think that would be incredible. 

All this talk has me wondering if I can get a FM Fiat 128 and would it still be an FM or would it be a F128?

In reply to dean1484 :

I like you. My son name is Dean btw. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Yup that's about where I'm willing to value the swap. There's a reason I haven't bought that 400hp Cayman S with the 4.2 911 engine. Couldn't justify it to myself because in that price range I'd buy so many other things. 

But dont be put off by what I value it. Thousands of people buy $80k F250 Platinums brand new. I wouldn't. I'd spend that same money on a used 997.2 turbo or SL-C with a BMW V10 though. 

It's what the heart wants not what makes the most sense. 

80sFast said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Have you ever though of trying to create a relationship with Mazda like Dinan did with BMW. I think that would be incredible. 

Callaway killed that with their mishandling of the MSP. Before that, they were considering partnering with people like us. The MSP experience put an end to that. 

Could we do our own from scratch? Not really. To do properly requires a massive investment. Registration will be a problem even then. It’s different in the UK. Like Singer, we only modify cars, because it’s a lot easier from a legal standpoint. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

That’s truly a shame.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Please don't take my comments as anything negative towards the V8 ND. I know all the hard work that went into that project and have nothing but respect and admiration for the finished product. Even with that ugly body it's an impressive machine ; )  I'm sure you realize that the majority of this forums members are not the target market for your car.  So I wouldn't let this discussion carry too much weight with regards to the V8 ND. You guys have done all the legwork already so I say push it as hard as you can to build as many as you can. If I had the money I would certainly be a customer. If only to support you and FM. But realize that the only area a FM V8 ND and a TVR compares is on paper. It doesn't matter that ownership of TVR has changed hands, there is a certain something that a TVR brings to the table that no matter how well executed an engined swapped Miata can never attain.  

For the record I would not buy a TVR if I had the money. But I'm damned sure happy they are building it.

If I had that kind of money I might buy one. I'd cross-shop it with a C7 ZR1 and S3 Exige S.

Edit: Maybe also a FM V8 NB with a Widow SPR1 body kit?

If we were arguing Sagaris or V8 ND, I could see it being a tough choice. This new tvr is ugly and i still don't believe we will ever see them in the wild after so many years or rumors. 

Keith Tanner said:

But they are sleepers. I'm thinking of building another halo car for the shop that will be a little more...dramatic...but it will always be possible to tell that it's based on one of the best handling cars on the market  It's got a completely new drivetrain, new braking system, reinforced chassis, new steering, new suspension, fuel system, cooling system, custom electronics - but since it looks like a Miata it'll never be viewed as anything but a modified Miata to a lot of people. I'm trying to figure out how we can change that perception. The journalists who drive it are always impressed how much it feels like a production car. 

Yupididit puts a value of $18k of our car over a stock Miata. That's just depressing. An extra 350 hp and 400 lbs of torque, a much more robust drivetrain, custom long-travel suspension, improved grip and without losing any of the mod cons (other than wheelspin control)...and it's worth $18k to him. Hell, GM gets to charge an extra $25k for the Z06 over the Stingray and they're basically the same car other than the addition of a supercharger. 

Every time a V8 Miata comes up for sale, it gets compared to a used Z06 because they have the same engine but are very different cars. The TVR and our cars are much, much closer in size (I assume), weight, power and general design so it's a good comparison. Even before there was a "new TVR" I used to characterize our car as a modern TVR without the reliability problems. Anyhow, this is interesting. I've been looking at if it's worth trying make the FM ND V8s a more serious part of the business. This discussion makes me think not.

Quoting just the relevant bits due to length.

Sorry the feedback here is getting to you.  Please keep in mind almost everyone posting (me included) thinks FM is an awesome company, we want you to succeed because of that, and the ND V8 Miata is awesome.

With that being said, you're on a forum of DIYers and cheapskates.  We're probably not the target market for an $80k Miata.  It shouldn't be a surprise.  Trying to draw a parallel to home renovations (because that's all I've been doing the last 2 years):

-I got a quote to have hardwood floors put in ($8700, 1000 sqft, solid oak, material and labor included).  I was actually going to pay for this one until the guy missed three deadlines, hadnt ordered materials yet, and I had 3 weeks until I was hosting Christmas for my folks and fired him.  Went to a local place, got material (3/4" solid mahogany) that night, let it acclimate a week, and did it my reluctant self.  Total bill: ~$3000 including my new air nailer.

-Got a quote to replumb the whole house: $7000.  Did it myself over three weekends, cost about $1000.

I imagine a lot of folks here are in a similar boat.   If we can do it ourselves for 1/3 the cost, its really hard to write the big check.  Its not that I don't see the value, I just have difficulty valuing others' time at 2-3x my own.  

I'm finally reaching a point in my career where I *could* spend that kind of money on a car, and I haven't (yet).  Part of it is that lingering cheapness (or frugality/sense of value if you're trying to make it sound better).  If I was going to build a V8 miata, I'd start with a clean NA shell, a used ls1/t56 from a 4th gen f-body, and try to have a beautiful finished car for under $30k (incl. possible paint/interior refresh).  Part of it is the reasons you've already heard:

-a v8 miata is awesome, but it looks like any other miata, you have to explain why its better.  A TVR (or SLC, or Ultima, etc) has people running up to you and asking, "what kind of car is THAT?  Ive never seen one before in my life!"  Thats whats meant by rarity, not number built.

-you bring up Z06s in a lot of your posts and say they're not comparable, or imply the miata is superior.  But a C5 Z06 is $18k in great shape these days, has 400+ hp, supercar 2 seater looks, turnkey OEM reliability, and weighs 3100 lbs.  And it handles great.  The Miata does not have a monopoly on handling, or double a-arms suspensions.  C6 and C7 just add more of everything (including cost and weight, unfortunately).  Not trying to knock Miatas or Corvettes, but theres a heck of a lot of both at NASA/SCCA weekends.  I don't know why they take the brunt of the abuse in your comparisons.

Theres definitely a market for the v8 ND, and its ironically similar to the new corvette/911 market.  Older guys with money, that just want to write the check, cry once, and move on to having an awesome car that just requires washing and changing the oil.

Its about the combination of factors that give you the "fizz" to borrow James May's term.  People like to poo-poo exclusivity, names, etc, but I love being the guy on the 71 Norton Commando pulling into to get a beer at my local brewery. I feel like I'm *someone* (and I am, because I'm suffering for it). You could have the fastest berkeleying sentra on the planet, and it wouldn't carry the cache of a bone stock MG Midget. 

Teh E36 M3 said:

Its about the combination of factors that give you the "fizz" to borrow James May's term.  People like to poo-poo exclusivity, names, etc, but I love being the guy on the 71 Norton Commando pulling into to get a beer at my local brewery. I feel like I'm *someone* (and I am, because I'm suffering for it). You could have the fastest berkeleying sentra on the planet, and it wouldn't carry the cache of a bone stock MG Midget. 

So you're saying somebody is about to sell a crappy car and hope it sells because they bought the rights to use the TVR name? And that will be more special than a well built sports car that actually works?

In reply to Daylan C :

To some people yes. Performance is almost irrelevant.

When was it established that the new Griffith will be a crappy car?

Daylan C said:

Teh E36 M3 said:

Its about the combination of factors that give you the "fizz" to borrow James May's term.  People like to poo-poo exclusivity, names, etc, but I love being the guy on the 71 Norton Commando pulling into to get a beer at my local brewery. I feel like I'm *someone* (and I am, because I'm suffering for it). You could have the fastest berkeleying sentra on the planet, and it wouldn't carry the cache of a bone stock MG Midget. 

So you're saying somebody is about to sell a crappy car and hope it sells because they bought the rights to use the TVR name? And that will be more special than a well built sports car that actually works?

Yes

In reply to 80sFast :

You know I'd almost be disappointed if it wasn't. I mean if you take all the crazy out of it you're just left with a mustang with a fancy body kit 

In reply to Nick Comstock :

This guy gets it. 

80sFast said:

When was it established that the new Griffith will be a crappy car?

Guilty until proven innocent. 

I'm using you guys as a focus group. Trying to get past the "it's just a Miata with a motor swap" concept is a problem for us if we want to sell any significant number of ND V8s. We're seeing a different group of people asking for those, not people who would consider banging together their own out of a wrecked Camaro and a 1993 Miata. They're the sort of people who call up and ask what colors are available. And not all of them are old.

I know  most people here aren't the target for either a turn-key ND V8 or a new TVR. But meanwhile, Andy Hollis is trying to decide what color his new McLaren will be, and he's sure a GRM kinda guy. 

The only reason I mention the Z06 so often is because that's our nemesis in public perception. Our car uses a similar engine to a used and heavily depreciated Z06 and is RWD, so they're the same thing to anyone who doesn't think. The TVR is much closer and a more legitimate competitor in price, packaging and concept. So how do I get people to consider them as alternatives? Can we get beyond the "just a motor swap" concept from the public? The responses here - particularly because they're from a bunch of people who really won't be buying either, so it's completely based on perception and not on experience - are a good insight. Thanks.

In order for us to sell more of these cars, we have to invest. Marketing, publicity and even how our shop operates. Scaling up production isn't something we can scale down easily if it doesn't work, so it's a big decision.

I do hope that TVR succeeds and makes cars that are still nuts. The recipe they have here is decent but nothing too unusual - as noted, I used a car with very similar specs to go to Home Depot today  Let's hope they can imbue it with some of what made the previous TVR interesting and not just a reboot of an old name.

note to Andy.  the proper color for any hypercar is I'll take it in your most obnoxious eye searingly color available.  That'd be my approach damn the torpedoes.  

maybe rebrand yourselves with a three letter version of a very dull name like Trevor/TVR?

let's start with Nigel.  NGL.

maybe Walter.  WTR?

a side by side comparo would be nice.  Hey Andy cancel the McLaren we need a TVR to embarrass.