Any one else excited? New TVR Griffith!

Thanks for the input, Seth. We've always offered a very bespoke experience, building cars just the way our customers want. For example, of the last three Habus, one had a special engine (a Lingenfelter 575 that turned out to be a disappointment from the standpoint of driveability and was very expensive and had a long lead time) and another involved some custom work for future power upgrades as well as body panels. But that's not the same as a larger options list. Jeremy is actually trying to cut down the option list and make more of the options standard - no more four piston front brakes, for example. I'm not sure we agree on that point.

And of those last three cars, two of them were cars purchased specifically for the conversion. The customers never actually saw the cars in four cylinder form.

Bespoke has been the name of the game from the start.  Interestingly, when we advertised in Hemmings Sports & Exotic we got a very good response - and every single question was "what colors do you have in stock?" These guys didn't want a custom build, they wanted to choose between red and blue and have the car shipped to them immediately.

The Cobra wasn't a huge sales success when it was new - its impact has been greater over time than sales numbers would indicate. Less than a thousand over seven years of production.  Over 160,000 Corvettes were sold during that time. I'd love to see our Habus hit the same percentage, though! 

Hi, Keith.

Sounds like you're going after the Henessey Venom GT type of customer. People don't look at that and say "Oh, that's just a Lotus with an engine swap." I don't know how they did it, but it looks like people accept the Venom GT as it's own thing.

Keith Tanner said:

The people buying these cars aren't looking for a project. They don't want the risk of a highly depreciated Aston or a Maserati for pennies on the dollar. They're cross-shopping Cobra replicas, 911s and very rarely Corvettes.

A "highly depreciated" F355, 348TS, or 456GT will have maybe 20-25k miles on it. And if you buy it for, say, $55k ... well, that leaves an awful lot of money on the table for any maintenance issues that might come up. When it comes to maintenance, you can take it to your local Italian exotic repair shop. I'm not an Italian sportscar guy at all (I find them kind of cheesy) ... but I personally know of 3 independent Ferrari specialists within 20 miles of my house (folks have money around here LOL).

So, I guess I don't see the argument that a low-mileage, well-maintained Ferrari is a "project car."

Used V8 Vantages seems to have a reputation of being reliable. But they're dead sexy so who cares 

yupididit said:

Used V8 Vantages seems to have a reputation of being reliable. But they're dead sexy so who cares 

They're also cheap. Buy one with a bad engine for $18k and have Keith do an LS swap

Keith Tanner said:

So, I'm back.

Making people consider our Habu (sorry for those who don't like it, but it's the name. "Small venomous snake from Japan" is the quick and easy definition) as a real car and not just "a Miata" is the goal. Because it IS a real car that stands apart.

We don't need to sell that it's fast, that part is obvious to anyone. Nobody ever seems to question reliability, as it's a very proven drivetrain. Racing will only prove that it's fast and reliable. So as much fun as it would be to take it racing, that's not going to prove anything that we need to prove.

What we need to convince people of is that it's a legit alternative to other exotics. We need to make sure that more people know that the ABS works, that it doesn't overheat in traffic, that it's a sweetheart to drive and not a bloody murderer like my MG is. We know from the people that buy them that this is important and that we've pulled it off. But we need to get that information into more people's heads. I know our web presence is a problem here, when you go to look up the cars you find them attached to a parts store that also sells inexpensive suspension for 30 year old Miatas. That'll be changed soon. I've been preaching for a while at FM that we need to psychologically separate the Habus from the parts business but still keep the association with the name, and I'm finally going to have a chance to do that. I also need to get the car into potential buyers' consciousness. The Smoking Tire video has been the most effective so far, showing that print just doesn't convey these cars properly. We have another high profile filming session coming up at the end of the month, so that's good.

The people buying these cars aren't looking for a project. They don't want the risk of a highly depreciated Aston or a Maserati for pennies on the dollar. They're cross-shopping Cobra replicas, 911s and very rarely Corvettes.

LanEvo, of all the journalists who have driven the car, Jethro was the one who seemed the most ambivalent about it. Go figure.

The name has actually grown on me since it was explained above. 

I’m not saying to go racing to prove anything. No one here is questioning quality or performance. I’m saying you need to make the Habus cool. Nothing is as cool as winning. Maybe racing isn’t the answer to changing the feeling surrounding your car, but the quality and capability aren’t the problem. 

Dumb idea Keith, but through your contacts with Mazda would it be possible to offer bespoke/custom colors for your guys?  I know Porsche offers "any color your want" service for like 5-10k, perhaps a deal that allowed a customer to have their car delivered in a factory-supplied viper green or something would be enticing?

It might help get past the initial "just a Miata" look, since the current colors are kinda boring :)

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

Also maybe unique hood/trunk badges. Like those old Tommy Kaira Skyline GT-Rs.

Just watched the video, and I think the car looks fantastic!  What a beauty.

In my mind this car has much less to do with the silly 90's and 2000's TVRs and much more with the 60's and 70's models.  The factory Ford engine was absolutely typical on the M-Series cars, and makes perfect sense for this company.

I like the interior, though I'm not sure I love it.  Would probably take some time to get used to.

The concentration on light weight and handling are certainly in line with TVR history.

Slam-dunk, I say!  Makes me want to paint my M-Series red!

Keith Tanner said:

It's got a completely new drivetrain, new braking system, reinforced chassis, new steering, new suspension, fuel system, cooling system, custom electronics...

It could be argued that these are all a part of any well executed swap that more than doubles the power. However, where you see a 'new braking system', I see a 'big brake kit' for the ND Miata. Where you see a 'new suspension', I see a 'handling kit' for the ND Miatra. These simply do not say bespoke vehicle to me. No, it's not 'just Miata with an engine swap'...It is a 'repeatable high-end tuner-built Miata with an engine swap'. There is, or at least should be, no shame in that.

I say this with only the utmost respect, as I genuinely believe the Habu is probably the best $80k new sports car available, but the 'only' standout piece of work I am at all familiar with on the car that is appreciably beyond what is frequently accomplished by other (typically one-off) professional engine swapped builds, is the extraordinary integration of the modern electronics systems to get the GM drivetrain to work with the rest of the Mazda car...Which regardless of how difficult it was to accomplish, is still firmly seated in 'swap' territory (albeit on very exclusive/premium side) to me.

Keith Tanner said:

But it's somehow got some sort of magic sprinkles that make people think it's better, and I want to see if those magic sprinkles can be applied to a custom car built on high quality roots instead of a small volume manufacturer that bought a name.

These are the magic sprinkles that a small volume manufacturer has over a custom car builder...

Keith Tanner said:

...because they have to figure out chassis production, interior production, crash safety, airbags, ergonomics - all the stuff that we let a full scale OE do for us.

In my opinion, to lose the 'swap' stigma, there still needs to be a substantially greater deviation from the core Mazda engineering in areas beyond the drivetrain integration. I'm thinking suspension design/materials, interior design/materials, body design/materials/proportions, etcetera. Basically, the closer you can get to the 'manufacturer' line without crossing it, the easier it will be to lose the stigma.

You seem to be starting with a Miata and are asking how little you need to change to get people to consider it a bespoke car.  I'm saying that it moreso needs to start with what people consider a bespoke car and ask how little you need to change it to start with a Miata. I can go into more specifics of what I would imagine that entailing, but in its 'ideal' form, it would also quickly lose any price advantage it has over the TVR...Or viewed another way, perhaps you're simply starting with too good of a foundation, as there is apparently not enough of the car that justifies substantial re-engineering.

Alternatively, you could strategically embrace how it's inherently perceived and find a way to use/market that to your advantage, rather than fighting a long and frustrating upstream battle with the public and your potential customers just to (maybe) change the perception you already have. 

Then again, it's all a matter of perspective, as I also don't necessarily see 'buying a name' as being fundamentally all that different than any other type of corporate leadership shakeup/changeover either.

1. A lot of people that can afford a car this expensive would rather finance the car at a low rate and invest their money elsewhere at a higher rate.  How hard is it to finance a Habu?
2. How will insurance value a Habu if it's in an accident?  (My wife actually wanted to know how much she could sell it for if a bread truck hit me, but I'm sure this is what she meant)
3. Is the Habu warranty as good as a Porsche CPO warranty?  I imagine people would be more likely to cross-shop a CPO 911 vs the Habu.  You can get a pretty nice 991.1S or 991.2 for this price.  I think the prices on 991.1's have gone back up a bit, but you could find S models as low as $68k for awhile.
4. Miata's are functional for a sub $30k car, but even a base C7 has a nicer interior.  Quality is not comparable to a Porsche.
5. Current Miata colors are really boring.

Like many here, I suffer from major auto ADD.  I was looking for my next midlife crisis car about a year ago, and I really wanted to consider one of your turnkey cars.  My wife brought up points 1-4.  Point 5 was mine.

It'll be hard to come up with enough "emotion" to compete with a 911.

In reply to rotard :

I couldn't imagine the feeling of getting a brand new Habu, getting it wrecked by a random driver, then insurance telling me "here's your $25,000 check". 

I suspect leasing is more common than financing for toy cars like the TVR.

As for insurance, I believe you can get specialty policies from places like Hagerty that will cover cars for an agreed-upon value.