I figured I would stop by and update this thread I made a while back. Over the past year or so, I've driven a very long list of cars and most of which were taken to my favorite local canyon road for a thorough test of driving dynamics. Many of which I've written detailed reviews of on other forums. The ones I can think of are:
-AP1 S2000
-AP2 S2000
-NC Miata
-ND Miata
-MR2 Spyder
-350Z (Touring and Nismo)
-370Z (Sport and Nismo)
-986 Boxster S
-BMW Z4 M Coupe
-E46 330ci
-BRZ
-C5 Corvette Z06
-SN197 Mustang GT 5.0 (w/track pack)
-RX-8
-Solstice GXP
I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting. But I've really tried to be diligent in order to find “the one” to replace my last weekend playtoy (2004 Mazdaspeed Miata). Up until just recently, I had the most fun in the canyons in the AP2 S2000, with an honorable mention going to the Nismo 370Z (I was shocked as well). The AP2 wasn't the fastest car, but it topped the list for fun factor. Twice (I've driven 2 of them). Before anyone asks, yes, I preferred the S2000 and Nismo 370Z over the C5 Corvette Z06 in the canyons. I was shocked as well.... but that's an entirely different discussion.
Some of the cars I drove weren't exactly apples-to-apples comparisons, but I wanted to make sure I was covering all my weekend sports car bases for cars that can be found in the mid/low 20's.
Yesterday I located a 2005 Porsche Boxster S (987.1) with 64k miles on the ticker that I took on a very extended solo test drive.
I probably shouldn't have driven that car. I knew it was a bad idea before I drove it, but I did it anyway. What did I discover over a ~2 hour long test drive? The 987 Boxster S is quite possibly the best 2-seat sports car I've ever driven. Maybe I just need to get out more, but it really is that good.
I'll break this down by category:
-Interior: honestly it's a very plain/spartan interior. Nothing stands out as being ultra-fancy or eye-catching, but everything feels very well made. The materials feel high quality and I didn't notice any creaks or rattles, despite the car being 11 years old with 64k miles on the ticker. I think this interior will age well and is leagues beyond the last 2004 Boxster S (986) I drove, despite having higher mileage. I was not impressed by the 986's interior, but the 987 is a huge upgrade.
The gauges still suck with the sun to your back and the analog speed-o is hard to read, but there's also a digital speed-o in the middle, underneath the tach that helps a bit. Several of the buttons and controls seemed a bit confusing to me, but as I spent time with the car I realized it wasn't that they were complex, I am just not accustomed to Porsche's interiors.
-Comfort/Seats: The seats are comfortable, while being well bolstered and holding me tightly in the corners. Although I needed to slide the seat all the way back to get my long legs most comfortable (6'2” 210 lbs, 34” inseam), which limited the amount of recline the seat could give. I would have liked just a bit more recline to be more comfortable, but it certainly didn't detract from the rest of the car and I drove it around for 2 hours without issue.
The car does have plenty of headroom, leg-room, shoulder room and thigh room to fit me comfortably otherwise. One thing I was shocked about is that the top of my head was actually fully underneath the factory roll hoops! I also didn't have to duck my head underneath the windshield at stop-lights, which is a problem I usually have with small roadsters. I feel like the car might have been designed for guys about my size. Don't get me wrong, its actually a pretty small car, but it's 3000-3100 lbs frame seems to be the “small car” version of a bigger guy's car, if that makes any sense? It's a bit bigger than the S2000, although I think I might prefer the S2000's driving position ever so slightly, just because of the tad bit of extra recline.
-Normal driving: the clutch might be a bit on the stiff-ish side, but nothing too bad. I honestly didn't notice it until I got stuck in bumper to bumper traffic and even then I think I only noticed it because my '15 WRX's clutch is very soft. For normal driving, it works really well and is easy to modulate. For shifting, it was actually a lot of fun to work as it has a good engagement point.
The shifter is extremely smooth and very precise, but honestly, it's not like any other shifter I've ever manipulated. I'm positive that it's a cable shifter (vs mechanical linkage), but it's the best cable shifter I've ever worked. Very effortless and I never missed a gear. I frequently found excuses just to rev-match/heel-toe downshift it. However, it feels nothing like the S2000's shifter. As good as the 987's shifter is, I still preferred the more mechanical/direct feeling on the Honda.
The ride is firm, but not uncomfortable. I honestly think Porsche got the suspension just right from the factory. Flat and planted in the corners, while perfectly livable on all but the harshest of roads. You definitely notice holes in the road, but the chassis isn't really upset by them and I never felt like I was being beat up.
-Brakes: these brakes are damn good! At first, they don't feel like they have very much initial bite and I was left wondering if something was wrong with those huge red calipers and the cross drilled rotors attached to them... but then I dug in a bit deeper.... these things have monstrous stopping power! Jerk-your-head-forward whip-lash style power! There is also quite a bit of play in the pedal to modulate them precisely. In a nutshell, they grab softly when you're driving normally, but feel like you're throwing a 10-ton boat anchor out the window when you push them. Really great brakes with not even a hint of fade coming down the mountain.
-Engine/power: At idle I wasn't overly impressed by the exhaust note, but for no particular reason. I thought I might have heard a ticking noise I didn't care for. At wide open throttle this motor sounds amazing! I don't know what they've done, but other manufacturers should take note and attempt to duplicate it! Best sounding 6 cylinder I've ever heard. I kept revving it just to hear the engine.
Honestly, there's not a ton of power/torque going on in the lower part of the rev range, but rev it above 3500+rpm and it starts to come alive. The engine really wants to spin to 7000+rpm. There's plenty of power in the mid-range and the car pulls out of corners with authority. Even passing in 6th gear on the freeway was effortless, despite my frequent downshifting just to hear the beautiful flat-6 exhaust note.
I'll come out and say it: the car isn't terribly fast. It's plenty quick and is sure to give you a rush, but it won't touch a modern American V8 in a straight line. C&D clocked a 2005 Boxster S as running 13.6@103mph. It's quicker than the AP2 S2000 (C&D ran it at 14.0@100mph), but we're not talking massively more powerful here. The later 987.1 S cars (2007-2008) had a bigger 3.4L engine with a bit more power, with C&D running them at 13.4@107mph. I'm not looking for a drag car here, but power/acceleration is something to note.
One area it certainly beats the S2000 is the mid-range torque department; especially the older AP1. In the AP1 I had to really work to keep the car in VTEC. I also had to work in the AP2 S2000, but not quite as much as the AP1. The 987 S doesn't have that problem- it just pulls pretty steadily from just about any reasonable RPM.
-Canyon driving: this car is nothing short of amazing on a canyon road! The engine, suspension, drivetrain/shifter/clutch and brakes work together beautifully. The amount of grip it has is nothing short of astonishing. This is probably the best steering feel I've ever felt. In any car. At any price. The steering is brilliantly weighted and offers ridiculous amounts of feedback. Combine the perfect steering with the expertly tuned suspension and you end up with a car that tackles corners with incredible confidence.
For reference, my daily driver '15 WRX is said to pull ~0.95g on a skidpad according to the mags. It also has minimal body roll and very direct/responsive steering.... after spending a couple of hours in the 987 S I got back into my WRX and feel like it has lots of roll and lazy steering! Granted, the Porsche was wearing 19” RE050's whereas my WRX was still wearing 17” snow tires (Michelin X-Ice Xi3's), but the 987 S was still impressive to say the least.
In the canyons I just kept pushing and pushing... the turn-in is beyond sharp and the rear end just follows the front end repeatedly and without complaint. Almost nothing seems to upset this chassis. There didn't seem to be any real signs of understeer or oversteer. The car just goes wherever you point it with ease.
Everything is just so well balanced. The car makes you feel like a professional driver in search of a world championship... but not in a modern computer controlled car kind of way. It feels very analog, with lots of mechanical grip and feedback. It's a very pure driving experience.
There are faster cars in the canyons out there, but not many of them will put a bigger smile on your face!
It is honestly one of (if not “the) best pure sports cars I've ever driven in stock form (modded cars don't count). Again, not the fastest car on earth, but you feel connected to this car in a way that is difficult to duplicate in a stock car. What's more is that the car is good everywhere! It's extremely planted on the freeway, it carves through traffic with ease and rips up pavement in the canyons at a ridiculous level!
The 987 does something very special that is tough to emulate in other cars: it feels solid, fun and predictable in every environment I put it through. It feels incredibly agile during low speed cornering and yet as stable as can be at “I can't believe I'm going this fast” speeds. I see why people love these cars so much.... I think I just joined the club!
Life was so much more simple when the S2000 was my former canyon-carving front runner... Now there are comparisons to make and lots of questions to ask....
*PART 2: Comparisons and Important Questions*
-Comparison to the older 986 Boxster S: the 987 is better in every way. I'm sure some might debate that point, but I couldn't find anything about the 987 that wasn't superior to the 986. It's quicker, it's smoother, it handles better, it has a better interior, a stiffer chassis, it's more comfortable and just as involving. If they're close in price, don't even consider the 986. The 987 is a much better car; both as a “normal/commuter” car, as well as a sports car.
-Comparison to the AP2 S2000: I would have to drive another [hard-to-find in my area] late DBW AP2 S2000 to compare in depth. I think the 987 Boxster is quicker, has more torque, slightly roomier interior, higher handling limits, more at-the-limit confidence, better steering and better brakes. The Porsche also has a better OEM stereo and a higher windshield & roll hoops to boot!
Although there are a few things I think I prefer about the S2000: I actually like it's driver-centered interior better, it's shifter, softer clutch and 8000+rpm redline. I also prefer the idea of the S2000's lower cost of ownership experience.
Truly, they are both incredibly fun to drive in a canyon road, despite feeling very different. If I had to give the nod of one of them, it would probably be the Porshce, but not by as much as you would think, as the S2000's lighter weight and front-mid-ship layout have their own unique feel, especially when working the world's best shifter and hearing the motor scream up above 8000rpm!
But let's be honest here; when new the S2000 was a $33-37k car, whereas a new lightly optioned 987 Boxster S was likely closer to the $55-70k+ mark. The Boxster was a much more expensive engineering effort to begin with, from a company that has a reputation for building top notch sports cars. It is not shocking that overall, the Boxster is probably the better sports car.
Here's the crux: these cars are essentially selling for close to the same price. Considering the huge pricing gap when new, the 987 has really plummeted in value, whereas the S2000 seems to be appreciating in recent years.
This leaves me in a bit of a conundrum. I can buy either one of them with low mileage (under 40k miles) for close to the same price.... the Porsche is probably the better all-out sports car, but the Honda has a few huge things going for it:
-The AP2 S2000 is considered to be dead reliable. The Porsche is not.
-S2000 requires far less maintenance than the Porsche and will undoubtedly be cheaper to maintain over almost any amount of time.
-The Honda has a much bigger aftermarket. Want more power in the Porsche? Good luck with that- you'll need pretty deep pockets. S2000? Superchargers, turbos, stroker kits, camshafts, ECU reflashes, Standalones and individual throttle bodies galore! With the S2000 you have far more aftermarket options for anything you might want to do and the parts are cheaper.
-S2000 is easy to work on. The Porsche's engine bay looks like a nightmare within a nightmare.
-IMS bearing? RMS? Scored cylinder walls? All problems on the Porsche. S2000 common/major problems? Maybe abuse from flat-bill hat wearing kids, but nothing else really stands out.
-If you blow a motor on the track with the S2000, you can get a replacement ranging from around $2000-$4000 and the install/replacement looks like something you and your buddies can tackle in the garage..... Porsche? Be prepared to take the shaft with no lube. Seriously, it appears to be common to see $15k-$22k repair bills for blown 987 engine repairs. Even used engines from wrecked cars routinely seem to go for $6000-$15,000.
-The Honda weighs 200-300 lbs less and has smaller wheels/tires, brake pads, ect. Translation? Track consumables will be much cheaper for the Honda.
-AP2 S2000 has a reputation for being a reliable track car under stress. After searching S2KI, as well as Rennlist and Planet-9, there seems to be more reported blown motors from the 987 guys than there are from the S2000 guys, by a pretty good margin. Aftermarket/boosted cars notwithstanding.
Overall, from a financial perspective, the S2000 makes a lot more sense. From a tuning potential perspective, the S2000 also makes more sense, as it is more of a blank canvass to do whatever you want with it.... however, from an emotional perspective, I can't deny just how good the 987 S is. If money were no object, the 987 would be in my garage. Unfortunately, money does come into play. Here's the breakdown for pricing that I've found lately:
-I'm only looking for 2006-2009 S2000's that are drive-by wire (DBW). With under 50k miles on them, they are going for anywhere as high as $32k for cars that are essentially brand new (<10k miles), down to around $20k. Most are in the mid/low 20's, which is where I would like to be at.
The 987 Boxster S is considerably more complicated, as they made lots of changes over the years and those changes effect the predicted reliability (and price) of the car.
-2005 used the 3.2L engine (280hp), but 2 versions of it depending on build date. The early 3.2L has the "smaller"/weaker IMS bearing that has a 8-10% failure rate, but can be upgraded to the relatively "failure proof" aftermarket IMS bearing for around $1500. The later 2005 3.2L has the larger IMS bearing, that has a lower failure rate (estimated 1-2%), but cannot be serviced. With under 50k miles, the 2005 Boxster S manual cars range from as high as $29k down to around $21k, with average being in the mid/low 20's.
-2006 used the same engine as the late 2005's with the bigger/non-serviceable IMS bearing. Lower IMS bearing failure rate (1-2%) than the 986 and early 2005 cars, but can't be serviced. They seem to be ranging from about $25k to $29k with under 50k miles.
-2007-2008 used a larger, more powerful 3.4L engine (295hp) that had the larger IMS bearing. Lower failure rate (1-2%), but can't be upgraded/serviced. These cars range from a ridiculously high $40k (<10k miles), down to around $25k with under 50k miles. Most seem to be in the mid/high 20's. They are a bit quicker than the 2005-2006 cars.
-2009-2012 is referred to as the 987.2 as a lot was changed, including the entire engine (310hp). The new engine is direct injection and no longer has an IMS bearing at all. These car considered to be more reliable cars, as well as faster. C&D clocked the 987.2 in the ¼ mile at 12.9@109mph. Unfortunately, it comes at a price... As the recession hit, it looks like Boxster sales plummeted and the 987.2 cars are harder to find. They go anywhere from $46k down to around $33k. These cars are outside of my budget.
-Just for grins, the only other car on my “list” was the NISMO 370Z (albeit behind the AP2 S2000). This car was actually much better than I ever would have thought in the canyons, despite not being a convertible. These cars are still being produced, so the used market is from model years 2009 to 2016. Used ones go for anywhere as high as $40k (essentially still brand new), down to around $22k with under 50k miles on the clock. Most seem to be asking/selling in the mid/high 20's. Depending on year, C&D clocked these cars as running in the mid 13's, trapping around 105-106mph for the manual.
One thing to also factor in is that with the S2000 or Nismo 370z, I am projecting a “mod budget” in order to modify them over time for whatever purposes I desire. Since the 987 S doesn't have nearly as much of an aftermarket and is a sportier car out of the box, my “mod budget” for the Japanese cars would really just be re-designated as a “maintenance budget” for the Porsche, as it will cost a lot more money just to feed it and keep it in good shape.
Honestly, I'm not terribly concerned with normal maintenance on the 987. I can afford to feed the car and adhere to Porsche's normal maintenance schedule. What concerns me is major/catastrophic repairs that could really cripple me financially if something went wrong with the Porsche... and considering that I plan on tracking the car occasionally, that's a real possibility. Replacing a blown engine on the S2000 or 370Z isn't ideal, but it's manageable. The Porsche is just in an entirely different league as far as repair prices are concerned and it's a bit on the terrifying side. Replacing the 987 S engine seems like it would cost nearly as much as the car is worth....
Now, with all of this said, there are plenty of 987 Boxster's that make it to 100k+ miles without grenading an engine. I know that most cars can be reliable if well maintained and I was planning on buying an example with relatively lower mileage to boot (preferably under 40k miles). But these are still legitimate concerns about the Porsche nonetheless.
So, here are the questions of the hour:
Do I take a chance on a high maintenance German sports car?
Or play it safe with one of the more reliable, yet still fun Japanese alternatives?
Thoughts? Comments?
