Are the pre-PI 4.6 SN95 Mustang GTs worth a damn?

I have had well north of 100 cars at this point but somehow I have never had anything American with a V8 that resembled a sports car.

https://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/d/sacramento-1998-mustang-gt/7712198678.html

This '98 GT is rad as hell, in remarkable shape, and has a lot of handling-oriented modifications done to it that make it really appealing. However, even I know that the pre-PI 4.6 is almost universally considered a dog.

Keeping in mind that I am in California (must pass tailpipe emissions, stock ECU tune, any mods between the air filter and catalytic converter must either be stock or invisible to the average smog shop), is there any potential to have fun with a pre-PI SN95? 

I've always thought one of those from 1995 with the pushrod 5.0 would be fun.  Not a fan of the 4.6/5.4 in any guise.  Turds, they are.

I thought you could swap in something newer, but needed to have lower emissions than the original and include all the emissions hardware? Or is that the federal guideline?

So you could start with that platform, and otherwise carb approved components to upgrade, or eventually swap to a newer engine. 

In reply to No Time :

You can, but I'm not trying to go through all that; I'm currently living in San Francisco and don't have a garage to work in. I want something I can either drive as-is or hop up with CARB approved (or invisible) bolt-ons.

I'm actually shopping for a Porsche Cayman right now but came across this and went "hmmmmmm...."

If you do a swap you have to bring in all the smog equipment and electronics from the engine donor, and your car will be smogged according to the older car's requirements.

And it needs to be from a newer model than yours.

And you'll have to pass a thorough inspection where everything should either be placed exactly as in the donor car, or have a very good explanation why.

All in all, not really worth doing it unless you are going for a BIG change.

The stock clutch in 90's mustangs were heavy as hell and the shifter was...let's call it utilitarian 

PI swap it. Hanlon Motorsports in PA has a handle on fixing the 3650, which is still a steaming pos. Its a weird combo but the 4.6 wants a steeper gear but its rpm limit is done by 6000..

PI? Port injection? What year did they switch?

Edit: just looked it up. I had no idea they made that little power before the PI came out. Wow. Did all Ford 4.6s (vans, crown Vic's?) get the PI treatment in 1999?

That thing looks pretty damn sexy if you ask me. Better than a Cayman, ha. 

Had a '98 GT about 20 years ago.  Coming from a 5.0 Fox, the chassis was a huge improvement, the interior was a vast wasteland of hard plastic and the 4.6 was a disappointing dog of an engine.  It's been a minute, but IIRC the PI head/intake swap gets you up to 260ish HP, but it's not cheap.  Not sure about the emissions ramifications of that particular mod in CA.  That looks like a nice example, but I would hold out for a '94-95 5.0 car.  Much easier/cheaper upgrades for power (again, not sure about CA emissions).

In reply to pointofdeparture :

Are you close enough to the seller's location to take a ride and see it for yourself?  That has a lot of desirable upgrades already installed, notably the "4.10" rear gears, might be worth a drive.  The price isn't awful.

At this point it's damn near a 30-year-old car. Yes, it's slow by today's standards, but is that really why you're buying it? Or is it because it looks cool and reminds you of the old days? Of course the PI cars are faster, but YMMV on the "new edge" styling that they have. I say if you accept it for what it is, it could be a fun ride. But if it being that slow is going to bug you, buy something else.

Just looked at the link. This is the kind of ad that makes me want to buy a car. All the detail. Fantastic.

It has so many great mods, too. I'm sure you saw it already has the PI intake manifold, so you'd "just" need the heads to finish the job. Not that I'm enabling or anything.

I used to live in SF, and I would definitely drive to Sac to drive this. 

In reply to Rodan :

Probably not the "correct" answer, but I'm not saying E36 M3. It's a factory part swap. It's already "passed" emissions testing. It has factory part numbers all over it. The EEC-V is the same factory ECU until 04.

My only problem is there jackE36 M3 worth of room to work on the engine. I have pulled a 2v out the top. Having to zip tie certain head bolts up because you can't remove them is an engineering failure. It doesn't help the deck height is almost 9" with a head that stands up almost another 7", IIRC. It might be even taller, I seem to recall it's almost 20" from crank centerline to the valve cover.

Yes.

In reply to CyberEric :

As they say, with a lot of enthusiast cars you're buying the previous owner just as much as the car, and I'd definitely buy this previous owner. That was one of the really appealing things.

Going to Sac is a little challenging (I live alone and don't really know anyone out here so it would be a lot of back and forth) and this is something that just kind of interested me on a whim because it's a great color and has a lot of the right parts installed.

I'm probably going to hold out for something else reading about just how much of a hassle the 4.6 in general is in the SN95 chassis, let alone the fact that the pre-PI engine is mostly good at turning fuel into noise, but it sure is compelling just as a rad ass bright yellow Mustang.

I've had my 97 Cobra since 2002, so ive been aroound these cars for a good long time. 

I'll lead with the negatives - If you want an all-conquering race machine, this isnt it

1.  The engine is not a great platform for improvement., at least not affordable improvement. You can get more HP out of it, but it isnt cheap/easy. The common avenue for improvement is forced induction. 
2. The chassis dates back to a 78 ford fairmont. It can work alright, but it can take some work to work well.  You dont have to go all the way, but there are some parts you will really want to sporting pretenses. 
3. Fuel economy - if you care about it, this isnt for you. 
4. blah blah interior quality, blah blah (it was a mass produced car from the 90's what do you want?)
5. Consumables expenses (price tires and brakes and go in with your eyes open)

The positives

1. While that engine wont set the world on fire, they are noted for being quite durable in stock trim. If close to stock performance is ok by you, you can likely have a reliable track car out of it. 
2. Parts availability - its hard to beat mustangs for how well covered they are by the aftermarket. And with how popular they are/were used parts are available. 
3. V8 Noises! 
4. While the chassis isnt great, there is great fun to be had hustling one about. 

Heres some autox video of mine from about 8 years ago. 

It's a cobra, so 80-90 or so more HP, but the suspension setup isnt over the top. Shocks, springs, CC plates, front swaybar, front control arm bushings with decent 200tw tires.    Like I said, its fun to hustle around, its distinctly not a miata, but a different game. I describe it as "grab it by the scruff of the neck and say DO THIS" It will do it, but not as telepathically as a handier chassis. 

The car you are looking at has more chassis parts than mine and probably handles a bit better. I'd say its not a terrible car to play with. 

In reply to No Time :

General rules for smog-legal swaps:

• Donor engine must be same year or newer
• All emissions equipment needs to come from the newer donor, although there is room for discussion with most referees.
• Donor must be the same class of vehicle, e.g. you can't pull a 5.4L from a truck and put it in a car.  In reality, most CA referees don't stress too much over that.  If you wanted to replace the 350 in your Caprice and found one in a Van, they know in practicality that it's the same engine
• Non-factory swaps must do an enhanced inspection with a referee, but generally speaking, same-car swaps are not concerning.  If you bought a 4-cyl Fox body, you could drop a 5.0L in it since both versions of that car had to pass the same EPA and CARB regs for that year.

That is information as of the mid 2000s when I was researching putting a Viper V10 in an Impala SS, so double check, but that's the basic outline of it in CA.

Regarding the Mustang, I think there are better American V8 vehicles to start with.  The Mustang always felt bloated and clunky.  The shift feel is very Ford Ranger... mostly because it is Ford Ranger.  The T56 was a bit better.  Strangely, it felt like Ford put more effort in build quality and materials in the F150 than they did on their big-seller sportsy car.

Either 94 or 95, they rolled out the SN95 with the 5.0L, so there is one year that is kinda best of both worlds, but they're getting long in the tooth.

Put it this way.... if you're shopping for a Cayman, the Mustang will feel like a 1980s Camry by comparison.  Ok, maybe not that bad, but they are wildly different vehicles.  Just give them both plenty of butt-time before comitting.  The SN95 is a dolled-up evolution of a 1960s design.  The Cayman is a semi-bespoke, purpose-built performance vehicle.

Pro for the Mustang - cheap and reliable.

I owned Foxes and early SN95 with the 302 and a late SN95 with the PI heads. I have driven several 4 valve Cobras. My last Mustang was an S197 4.6 3 valve. 

302 is easy to work on. It's lighter and smaller. The car feels better with the 302, more torque, better steering, etc. IMHO

The early 4.6 is one of the most durable V8 ever built because it has an 800 hp bottom end with a 200 -320 hp top end. I think 1998 got a small power bump to 240 hp? It honestly doesn't matter too much. The 4 valve does have fun top end pull but is lacking down low. The S197 3 valve engines have a better power band. IMHO

The consumables are pretty cheap or they were. It will never drive like a Porsche or BMW, but it will not cost you anywhere near as much to maintain. These are simple cars. The main problem will be 30 year old rubber, wiring, gaskets,....

I think a 98 mustang was first year of the PI top end. I know panthers didn't get till 02, but 'stang was earlier. Not sure if 98 or 99. 
PI stands for Performance Improved, if anyone is unsure.

PI head and intake have a slightly different port shape, but bolt onto a non-PI block. Earlier non PI engine has the same static CR as PI engine, but PI heads bolted to a non PI block, gives a slight more CR. And looks the same under the hood. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Either 94 or 95, they rolled out the SN95 with the 5.0L, so there is one year that is kinda best of both worlds, but they're getting long in the tooth.

I also seem to recall that the 5.0L SN95s had a lot of stuff that was oddly unique to them. Fox-body parts wouldn't fit them, even though it was the same engine and an updated chassis. Something like they required specific headers for the '94-'95 cars, which weren't common and were expensive due to the limited application, and a bunch of other stuff was like that.

In reply to 03Panther :

99. Right in line with the body change.

In reply to NickD :

It was the egr tube on the passenger side header. They claimed the chassis required the funky upper intake and tb. All the fox stuff fits anyways, once you quit with emissions bs. Helped a friend build a NMRA class car from a 1999 body in white and used all fox parts.

In reply to Ranger50 :

There was a body change?  

When I started likening mustangs, in the mid '70s the ones I was into only came with a 289 as the largest engine! Got hooked on falcons and comets and never kept up with them "modern" ones. !

Now, I prefer the panther platform 

In reply to 03Panther :

Old bubble style to new edge styling.