Autocross is dying

In reply to dps214 :

Idk, I have my doubts.

In reply to hunter47 :

Hmm, a lot of that is car dependent.  I don't think my car (996 Turbo) is all that easy on consumables, but here's how the math breaks down for me.

1 day PCA entry fee, $175

Tires lasted over two full seasons, probably 10 days?  So that's ~$150/day.  My track pads have over two seasons on them and are still fine, let's call that $35/day.  I replaced a set of front rotors but FCP Euro, so they were free.

So that's under $400/event for me, with a car that's definitely harder on tires and brakes then what everyone loves here, a miata.  Obviously quite a bit more than auto-x, but also substantially more seat time.  I think if you break down the cost per minute of driving time, the track driving works out to cost less. 

In reply to docwyte :

I like autocross because of the competition.  I have done a few hpde days and after a few sessions, I get bored.  I can work on hitting my marks until the cows come home but I need another motivator to continue dumping money into the hobby.

The cheapest competitive track time I have found is time trials.  You generally get one to two competition laps per session (out lap, warm up, competition, cool down, and do it again if there is time).  Speeds are higher than autocross and not working is cool but the competition driving time is similar.  Have you found a different even type that allows for more competition pace laps at the amortized price of $400 per event?  Which rules are you running that allow tires to still be competitive after 30+ sessions.

When I started autox in 2001, we paid $1500 for a 14 acre lot for the year, and that was in the form of a charitable donation to a program the lot owner supported.  Insurance was under $200 per event, and we had 125 cars, and another healthy autox club that we coordinated with 40 miles away.  When I moved in 2014, we had lost our first lot due to ownership changes.  We had lost our second lot because another club caused an issue, and all of us got booted.  Our 3rd lot is a logistical nightmare because a very small piece of it was owned by another party, and they wanted the same rent as the majority owner.  The lot is in a really bad place, I told people we autocrossed at the intersection of Crack Whore Drive and Drive By Shooting.  Glass, garbage, used needles are a common occurrance.  The only reason no one bothered us there about noise is it's at a major interstate junction.  Insurance (in 2014) was up to $450 and event, and rent between the 2 owners was $1500 an event, with a much lower car count.

I fear the sport / hobby is in a bad spot.  Lots are very hard to get, and keep, expenses keep going up, car counts keep going down.  I gave it up in my new home because it was a 2 hour one way drive, $50 fee to work 4 hours and run 6 minutes.   I was spoiled, I know with 20 minutes away, half hour work sessions and $20 to play.  

hunter47 said:

I ended up buying a mountain bike instead, and go to trails for free, to get a similar adrenaline rush. I don't autocross for the same reasons as you, I get ~10 minutes of driving time maximum, and my car just doesn't like autocross. 

I have never limped away from an autocross, but I always manage to hurt myself every time I downhill MTB.  

docwyte said:

In reply to hunter47 :

Hmm, a lot of that is car dependent.  I don't think my car (996 Turbo) is all that easy on consumables, but here's how the math breaks down for me.

1 day PCA entry fee, $175

Tires lasted over two full seasons, probably 10 days?  So that's ~$150/day.  My track pads have over two seasons on them and are still fine, let's call that $35/day.  I replaced a set of front rotors but FCP Euro, so they were free.

So that's under $400/event for me, with a car that's definitely harder on tires and brakes then what everyone loves here, a miata.  Obviously quite a bit more than auto-x, but also substantially more seat time.  I think if you break down the cost per minute of driving time, the track driving works out to cost less. 

I drive a 2020 WRX so my cost breakdown per minute of driving time is probably the same as yours - my problem is time (most track days are on weekdays during the summer here due to real racing taking up the weekends, and it rains too much in the off-season), and up front cost. It just costs way too much up front for me. 

I started going to the race track first then slowly "converted" to autocross and the cost per seat time is terrible, but I do enjoy the low commitment/low chance of crash damage and competition. Also, its just much different than track driving because the amount of precision is pretty epic. Attendance hasn't been bad over by me but I don't know if its because our venue is well loved (MetLife).

I think you have two kinds of people here.

The ones who can't afford to put $35 in the gas tank and then pay a $40 entry fee for a day of autocrossing. They used to pay $25 entry fees back in the good old days and probably had a site closer to civilization. They won't be paying $90 a year for an SCCA membership either. These guys are going to go buy a mountain bike or stay at home and play computer games. They won't be coming back unless you cut the entry fee and waive the membership requirements. Say what you will about increasing insurance and site rental fees, but if you got no money, you got no money.

The ones who can afford to pay $500 a weekend or more for a track event without putting a dent in their finances want more seat time and are going to want to do track events. They don't want to pay $40 to stand around a parking lot most of the day when they can blow some more cash and spend more time in the car.

As usual, Its all about the money.

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

If you want to spend more time in the car, wouldn't it make sense to WANT to go to events 2-3 hours away? 

Color me weird (no, really) but I like autocross more than track days because, while there is less seat time, the quality of seat time is far better.  There are more corners per minute and no time wasted on straights sitting there getting bored waiting for the braking zone.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

If you want to spend more time in the car, wouldn't it make sense to WANT to go to events 2-3 hours away? 

Yeah. But that also means you have to put more gas in the tank. It makes a difference if you are on a tight budget.

 

Color me weird (no, really) but I like autocross more than track days because, while there is less seat time, the quality of seat time is far better.  There are more corners per minute and no time wasted on straights sitting there getting bored waiting for the braking zone.

That's why I like autocrosses too. It really is a different sport from track days that I also like.

Maybe you could bring in some sponsors to cover part of the cost of renting the lot and the insurance. They could put up banners, give out swag and even sell stuff at the events. They could promote the events in their advertising. The entry fees could come back down to earth and you would get more cars. Just a thought.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

I think you have two kinds of people here.

The ones who can't afford to put $35 in the gas tank and then pay a $40 entry fee for a day of autocrossing. They used to pay $25 entry fees back in the good old days and probably had a site closer to civilization. They won't be paying $90 a year for an SCCA membership either. These guys are going to go buy a mountain bike or stay at home and play computer games. They won't be coming back unless you cut the entry fee and waive the membership requirements. Say what you will about increasing insurance and site rental fees, but if you got no money, you got no money.

The ones who can afford to pay $500 a weekend or more for a track event without putting a dent in their finances want more seat time and are going to want to do track events. They don't want to pay $40 to stand around a parking lot most of the day when they can blow some more cash and spend more time in the car.

As usual, Its all about the money.

I'm both, can I be both? 

You are correct though it's all about the money. 

I dunno if it's all about the money.  I mean, if I could do a track day for $40, I'd be all about it!  When I was an instructor for NASA, they waived my entry fees, so at that point it was just the cost of consumables for the car...

docwyte said:

I dunno if it's all about the money.  I mean, if I could do a track day for $40, I'd be all about it!  When I was an instructor for NASA, they waived my entry fees, so at that point it was just the cost of consumables for the car...

If you don't have the money, you don't have the money. Most events around here want your credit card number right up front when you register online. If you don't have it in the bank because your rent just went up, gas prices went up, your car insurance just went up, food prices went up, health insurance went up and your salary didn't go up, you don't do the event.

I guess people with money just don't understand.

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

Entry fees and fuel were never my major expense while autocrossing or rallycrossing, it was always consumables, for the car and for the driver.

But not havin' money is not havin' money, and to be frank if an extra $10-20, or even $100, is going to break you, you probably should not be involved in motorsports.  This isn't intended to sound like gatekeeping, just fiscal responsibility.  What if you pop a hose and fry the engine.  Or explode a trans.  Or roll the car, totalling it.  Or any number of potentials.  Those are the risks you are taking and are a lot more expensive than entry fees or fuel.

As I see it, autocross is about competition for minimum cost.  It's by far cheapest way to enter an event where you can theoretically win a plastic trophy with your driving skills. 

I guess it always comes down to financial. I mean, if we have the money, we either have a garage to do the work ourselves, or we just pay someone to fix it if we blow it up over the weekend. That's not me. Entry fees were not a problem, but the worry of breaking or crashing it removed much of the fun of driving it, on track or off.

As others have said, with local venues vanishing, now there's an hours-long drive out and back, not fun. On a related note, street traffic around here has gotten to the point where it sucks all the fun out of driving anything sporty. I have a line in the sand that I won't own a track-only car that sits in a trailer in the yard 99% of the time.

As for autocross, I reached the point - like others - where I was unwilling to trade a day standing in the hot sun for 3-4 minutes of track time. Mini rant: I read with disbelief a couple of the comments here that said in effect, this excuse is not valid - what?! I thought to myself, "is this guy listening to himself?" Don't care to know them!

Agree with Pete.  If the entry fee of $40 is a stretch, you should be putting your resources elsewhere.  Because if something happens to the car, which is likely the only one you have and the only way you're getting to work, you're in far more dire of a situation.  Not counting the cost of gas to get to/from a venue that's maybe 1+ hours away each way, which right now the gas burned could cost more than the event fee.  I did auto-x when I was in the military.  I didn't have the cash for the entry fees for track days, nor could risk the damage to the car.  I still had some issues with my car even at the auto-x...

Also agree with kb, crashing on track is always in the back of my mind, which is why I'm several seconds a lap slower than some of my friends in similar cars.  I just don't push as hard as I could, I like my car the way it is and don't care to ruin it.  Every so often I try and find a "cheap" (that seems much harder to find now) car I can use on the track only.  Then I start to feel badly about having any sort of money tied up into a car that gets used maybe 1 week out of an entire year, so I sell it.

I'm just trying to explain why you used to have 200 car events 10 years ago and now they have trouble filling the grid.

It's the economy. Younger people have side hustles on weekends plus higher rents and student loan payments to make. They won't be paying $40 to stand out in a parking lot all day. Or maybe its just Baby Boomers aging out of the sport. When you are 55 you have no problem standing out in the hot sun with a flag all day. When you are 65 or 70 you may not physically be able to do that. And at some point, old autocrossers do die off.

docwyte said:

I dunno if it's all about the money.  I mean, if I could do a track day for $40, I'd be all about it!  When I was an instructor for NASA, they waived my entry fees, so at that point it was just the cost of consumables for the car...

I agree it's not all about the money.  For me it's all about time spent and what excites me.  I can't come to grips anymore with driving an hour each way, then working 4+ hours...all for 5 minutes total seat time.  Even if it was free, I wouldn't do it.  

And it's totally personal taste but I got bored as sin with autox.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

docwyte said:

I dunno if it's all about the money.

If you don't have the money, you don't have the money. Most events around here want your credit card number right up front when you register online. If you don't have it in the bank because your rent just went up, gas prices went up, your car insurance just went up, food prices went up, health insurance went up and your salary didn't go up, you don't do the event.

I guess people with money just don't understand.

We understand.

We just think that the vast majority of autocrossers - or motorsports enthusiasts in general - are not in the income bracket that cannot afford $75 to cover gas and entry fee at the same time.  I'm sure those people exist and I have sympathy for their plight.  I just don't think their numbers are large enough to be a real contributor to the challenges autocross is facing.

And we all know that autocross loses the calculation of time / money spent per seat minute.  That isn't what autocross is about, and never has been.  Either you view the time when you're not driving the course as a chore, or you do not.

It really boils down to that.

[edit]  On the distance note - I can get to 5 or 6 autocross venues between 40-90 minutes' drive.  I can get to 1 - one - track in under 2 hours (NJMP).  The next closest is Summit point at 3 hours.  Next closest after that is maybe Watkins Glen at 5 hours or VIR at 7 hours.

Duke said:

And we all know that autocross loses the calculation of time / money spent per seat minute.  That isn't what autocross is about, and never has been.

This right here;  I was a very active autocrosser from 1989 to 2002. From 02 to 08 I was still active but didn't drive as we were running my son in a Jr Kart. From 08-13 I did maybe one autocross a year.

 In 2014 I drove a friend's F500 at an autocross and was hooked again. While I prefer track events I still love autocross; it's the lowest overall cost for competition. I don't care that I'm only competing for 6 minutes.  It cost me $100-150 and I'm doing it in a car that I have all of $6700 invested in.

Hell, I do track days in a car that I have $3000 invested in.

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

Hell, I do track days in a car that I have $3000 invested in.

That $6700 includes 4 Rotax engines I bought as a package for $1500 and upgrading to a larger fuel cell ($700) so as an autocross car it would be $4500. The old obsolete brand of enigine would have done a other 9 years of autocross but I got the bright idea to vintage race it.

With that said I only have one thing to say about your $3000 track day car..........respect.

Duke said:

...  Either you view the time when you're not driving the course as a chore, or you do not.

The reality is that the majority of the population (and many past participants) do view it as a chore, and/or an activity they have no interest in, and/or don't have time for, and/or don't have money for, etc. The reality is that property owners and city councils don't want to bother with it, as it's viewed as more risk than benefit.

When I was a regular at the San Diego autocross back in the 1980s, it was normal to see maybe half a dozen spectators, and that right there told me that most people simply don't care. Yes, it's important to those who are passionate about it, but since the activity needs big open lots, it unfortunately requires involvement by said-disinterested parties. Sad but true.

Tom1200 said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

Hell, I do track days in a car that I have $3000 invested in.

That $6700 includes 4 Rotax engines I bought as a package for $1500 and upgrading to a larger fuel cell ($700) so as an autocross car it would be $4500. The old obsolete brand of enigine would have done a other 9 years of autocross but I got the bright idea to vintage race it.

With that said I only have one thing to say about your $3000 track day car..........respect.

271k mile E90.  Brake fluid and pads and send it.  I have a lot of mechanical sympathy for it.  Shift well before redline.  My track days are for working on corners, don't care so much about lap times or straightaway speed.