BMW Z4 or newer Newer Miata

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

z31maniac said:

I get "wanting to race what they want to race" but we are speaking from practical experience. 

In club racing, it's actually more about wanting to race what all of your buddies want to race, because if you pick a car that nobody else races then you wind up all by yourself on the track without anyone to actually, you know, *race*. :)

 

 

Well, yeah, but if they can't keep a Fox body together, I don't suspect they are thinking that far ahead. 

Especially if the next idea is "let's buy a $40k used BMW and turn that into a race car."

What class do they want to "race" in? Sounds like they need to figure that out first then get a car. Or they can jump through whatever is needed to get a Z4 competitive where they want. Not knowing where that is as I rarely see them running outside of HPDE or IMSA level event and knowing they can't even keep a Mustang running means they're going to probably waste a lot of money to "race".

Frenchy sure does have a lot of "in over their head" neighbors with it comes to cars/racing

yupididit said:

Frenchy sure does have a lot of "in over their head" neighbors with it comes to cars/racing

We don't want logic here 

DocRob said:

I'd suggest you direct them to NASA's webpage on Road Racing. https://drivenasa.com/road-racing/

They can look at the costs of what it actually takes to go racing. And maybe do some soul searching.

Given a desire to have something "new" but still somewhat affordable, a used MX5 Cup Car would be my choice. That's an NC or ND Miata. And it'll be more reliable and cost half what a Z4 will. And still be 2x the cost of a Spec Miata and 50% more every race weekend.

And half (if that) the field size...

Based on the fields here in California, the next-biggest class after Spec Miata is Spec E46.  It's really taken off the last couple of years, offers the "BMW" thing, and also addresses one of the biggest downsides to the SM in that there's a LOT more room inside so taller people can fit without banging on the roll cage.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

DocRob said:

I'd suggest you direct them to NASA's webpage on Road Racing. https://drivenasa.com/road-racing/

They can look at the costs of what it actually takes to go racing. And maybe do some soul searching.

Given a desire to have something "new" but still somewhat affordable, a used MX5 Cup Car would be my choice. That's an NC or ND Miata. And it'll be more reliable and cost half what a Z4 will. And still be 2x the cost of a Spec Miata and 50% more every race weekend.

And half (if that) the field size...

Based on the fields here in California, the next-biggest class after Spec Miata is Spec E46.  It's really taken off the last couple of years, offers the "BMW" thing, and also addresses one of the biggest downsides to the SM in that there's a LOT more room inside so taller people can fit without banging on the roll cage.

 

 

Just a data point about E46 racing.  A friend of mine has gone 0 for 3 finishing a race with his.  Well prepped and set up for competition but older BMWs don't seem to be as reliable as older Mazdas when pushed hard.

Frenchy, I'd suggest you tell the twins Spec Miata is the answer.   

I like my BMWs, but I've never met ANYONE who would suggest that they are more reliable than a miata. Regardless of age. 
 

Id say spec miata given the only qualification you're asking about is reliability (and they are relatively anvil like), but then you'll get snarky about me not giving you the answer you want. 

Buy the Z4. Create a build thread.

As mentioned, if an older Spec Miata won't do, there are MX5 Cup (2006-15) and Global Cup (2016-2023) options as well. They all come with a lot of good racing opportunities and because of that, they have resale value. They're also really understood with known weak points and fixes. I wasn't suggesting the Miata as a forever car but as a good way to get started with minimum total expense. 

Building a Z4 race car, not so much. Unless the building is the point. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thank you.  Since they seem to look down on doing any sort of mechanical work. Based on your comments, I'll feel comfortable recommending a Miata over a BMW.   

z31maniac said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

z31maniac said:

I get "wanting to race what they want to race" but we are speaking from practical experience. 

In club racing, it's actually more about wanting to race what all of your buddies want to race, because if you pick a car that nobody else races then you wind up all by yourself on the track without anyone to actually, you know, *race*. :)

 

 

Well, yeah, but if they can't keep a Fox body together, I don't suspect they are thinking that far ahead. 

Especially if the next idea is "let's buy a $40k used BMW and turn that into a race car."

I don't think they want to turn anything into a race car.  I think it's just get in and drive.    It kinda sounds like these two are race cars already and they are trying to decide  which to take.  

Nathan JansenvanDoorn said:

I like my BMWs, but I've never met ANYONE who would suggest that they are more reliable than a miata. Regardless of age. 
 

Id say spec miata given the only qualification you're asking about is reliability (and they are relatively anvil like), but then you'll get snarky about me not giving you the answer you want. 

Buy the Z4. Create a build thread.

First I don't want to have anything to do with this. I'm friends with their father but they seem like they have a great big silver spoon up their butt.  
 Second;  the Mustang left them with a sour taste for anything older.  
    The idea that entitled,   nose in the air,  kids should get something even older and more common?    Even if it does make economic sense,  isn't going to fly.  
     

When the answer isn't the answer, the answer is obviously Ferrari. I hear the Monza SP1  is the new hot ticket. Unless they want to ride together, then the SP2. Should be right up your... neighbors.... alley. Full factory support (if pocketbook allows) and the seats have extra cutouts to make it more comfortable to drive without removing the silver spoons they seem to have pre-installed.

Huge difference between Z4 and a Z4M - horrid run flat tires, horrible steering system etc., but having said that, I'd steer them to  Miata - less expensive to prepare and keep out of trouble.   You don't want to be they guy they complain to when they screw it up (a normal part of the learning curve)

frenchyd said:

Nathan JansenvanDoorn said:

I like my BMWs, but I've never met ANYONE who would suggest that they are more reliable than a miata. Regardless of age. 
 

Id say spec miata given the only qualification you're asking about is reliability (and they are relatively anvil like), but then you'll get snarky about me not giving you the answer you want. 

Buy the Z4. Create a build thread.

First I don't want to have anything to do with this. Blah blah blah ...

Why even start this thread then? 

In reply to frenchyd :

Z4 is on the same platform as the E46, which is reliable and competitive, I am not a SCCA or NASA Guru, next question is the Z4 a 2.5 or 3.0?

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I mean that's an interesting point. Thus far, I haven't seen any professional racing coaches suggest that, "Less racing is better" for driver development. A mid-pack performing Spec Miata means you'll be racing other people. Will you be winning? Nope. But you'll be racing and learning to execute passes and learn what happens when you make mistakes, learn what happens when other drivers make mistakes.

You're also likely going to damage the car at some level, you're going to break some things, and you're going to spend money. But if you buy a MX5 Cup Car and drive along in dead last with all the track around you. You can happily tick off laps and cause minimal wear and tear on the car. The bonus there is, track time with minimal cost. The flipside is, minimal racing driver development. 

Grandmas money? They should invest it, wait a few years while it collects interest and they mature, then take it out and decide if a race car really is the best use for it. 
 

This has been the non sequitur PSA that nobody asked for. 

frenchyd said:

Nathan JansenvanDoorn said:

I like my BMWs, but I've never met ANYONE who would suggest that they are more reliable than a miata. Regardless of age. 
 

Id say spec miata given the only qualification you're asking about is reliability (and they are relatively anvil like), but then you'll get snarky about me not giving you the answer you want. 

Buy the Z4. Create a build thread.

First I don't want to have anything to do with this. I'm friends with their father but they seem like they have a great big silver spoon up their butt.  
 Second;  the Mustang left them with a sour taste for anything older.  
    The idea that entitled,   nose in the air,  kids should get something even older and more common?    Even if it does make economic sense,  isn't going to fly.  
     

You want nothing to do with it, they don't want practical advice.................so why not just tell them as much and wash your hands of it?

In reply to z31maniac :

 When a friendly neighbor asks your advice,   you kinda have to help him if you can.  
I'll show him what Kieth Tanner wrote and let it go.  

wspohn said:

Huge difference between Z4 and a Z4M - horrid run flat tires, horrible steering system etc., but having said that, I'd steer them to  Miata - less expensive to prepare and keep out of trouble.   You don't want to be they guy they complain to when they screw it up (a normal part of the learning curve)

Exactly.  I'll show them what Kieth Tanner said and be done with it. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to z31maniac :

 When a friendly neighbor asks your advice,   you kinda have to help him if you can.  
I'll show him what Kieth Tanner wrote and let it go.  

Good idea. I've discovered that many times when people ask for advice, they don't actually want advice, they want their decision justified.

In reply to z31maniac :

Yep, I'll second that. This feels a lot more like an ask to justify the choice they already made, than it does like an actual question. 

You guys are right.  
   I went up to show him Kieth Tanners remarks  and the kids said they already had bought the BMW.  
 The only good news is they bought it as an arrive and drive deal.  

I made the "BMW mistake" (albeit a Z3, not a Z4). On paper, I thought it looked great for SCCA ITA and thought it would be an upgrade from my Honda. I even bought an ex-Showroom Stock car so I wasn't starting from scratch in terms of cage and seat. Found out that the platform was totally unsupported in the aftemarket for race parts, and transmission ratios were abysmal for my primary track. Car was slower than what it replaced and used almost 2x the consumables due to higher weight. To make it competitive would have cost many cubic dollars for me to develop stuff from scratch...  and I'd still likely have lost to a Miata.. Takeaway - go with the platform that has the most support, especially if you're new at the game...

frenchyd said:  

 The only good news is they bought it as an arrive and drive deal.  

If you've got the means to do it, must be nice to have somebody else worry about prep and maintenance...