I'm trying to make up some new brake lines for a project car and oddly enough I've never actually made my own. So I got a flaring tool and some nickel copper line, And I've done a handful of practice runs on creating the bubble flare, every single time it pretty much comes out like this:
So what am I doing wrong here that is causing it to kind of smush over itself like that?
Here is it with the actual threaded section...
Nicopp sucks. It does that.
Make sure the end is square and free of burrs. Use SURR line as it is twice as thick as the cheap stuff and does not fold as easily.
How deep are you choking it in the mandrel? You may be having too much extension. It should be flush with the end of the mandrel put next to the side, and you may need less extension than that.
Try going more gently on the force used to make the flair. In my recent experience flairing nicopp I found it was easy to over do it and mess up the flair. If it looks better keep playing with the force used on some test pieces until you are happy with the results. If you're still not having luck you might need a better flaring tool. Here is the one that I am using:MasterCool
Pete. (l33t FS) said:Nicopp sucks. It does that.
Make sure the end is square and free of burrs. Use SURR line as it is twice as thick as the cheap stuff and does not fold as easily.
How deep are you choking it in the mandrel? You may be having too much extension. It should be flush with the end of the mandrel put next to the side, and you may need less extension than that.
So would I be better off getting some steel line instead?
I've done about a dozen practice ones, with different setup, different force, etc.....same result every time :/
bgkast said:Try going more gently on the force used to make the flair. In my recent experience flairing nicopp I found it was easy to over do it and mess up the flair. If it looks better keep playing with the force used on some test pieces until you are happy with the results. If you're still not having luck you might need a better flaring tool. Here is the one that I am using:MasterCool
I'm sure that tool is very nice, but for that price I could just buy new pre-made lines for the whole car and not bother DIY ;)
I've not used Nicopp but have used cheap flare tools on steel.
Clamp the holder in a vice so you have both hands free to operate the flare tool.
Make sure protrusion matches the mandrel thickness.
Make sure the end is square.
Make sure the clamp is full tight on the line.
Make sure the press is centered over the mandrel. I rotate it until it is against the sides to ensure it is centered then hand tighten it to hold it in place
Use consistent pressure on the press until the mandrel is seated. Once the press starts try to keep clamping consistently until it's done.
Repeat with the cone if double flare is required. Make sure it is centered.
I only have issues if I get in a rush and don't ensure I'm centered. By rotating the press against the sides you prevent it from happening while tightening which tends to mess up the flare.
Good luck.
SURR is nicopp but it is much thicker than most others.
How deep are you clamping it in the tool?
An aside, I usually had best luck with bubble flares by only doing the first stage of a double flare. It'll squoosh into shape when you tighten the nut, which is kind of how they seal anyway. By squooshing.
(It still bugs me that an external threaded device is called a nut)
I"m clamping it the recommended depth - there's a notch on the tool handle that shows the length.
I've gotten really nice results with nicopp and this tool. You're welcome to borrow it but maybe Leesburg is a lite far.
To me it simply looks like too much line in the flare. I know the tool has a notch but maybe try one with less "stickout".
On my tool (hurdy hur hur) the instruction is to have the stickout match the length of the pin in the middle of the die.
Every one of those hand held tools I have ever used had you have the stickout as the thickness of the mandrel. The 3/16" mandrels would have a step on the side for this purpose because the mandrel had to be thicker than the amount of stickout required.
In this photo he has the line sticking out too far. And that burr on the end is going to make the mandrel go cockeyed, so the flare will look like the ones you've been making.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:To me it simply looks like too much line in the flare. I know the tool has a notch but maybe try one with less "stickout".
On my tool (hurdy hur hur) the instruction is to have the stickout match the length of the pin in the middle of the die.
yep, the notch is the same size as the length of the pin in the die.
That photo above is interesting with the "special punch grease." Should I be putting some grease on the die?
Pete. (l33t FS) said:Every one of those hand held tools I have ever used had you have the stickout as the thickness of the mandrel. The 3/16" mandrels would have a step on the side for this purpose because the mandrel had to be thicker than the amount of stickout required.
In this photo he has the line sticking out too far. And that burr on the end is going to make the mandrel go cockeyed, so the flare will look like the ones you've been making.
Listen to Pete.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Unrelated story... no brake tubing involved...
I work with a lot of Swedglok Insturment tubing. The part with internal threads (and wrench flats) is the male fitting, and called a plug. The part that has threads on the outside and wrench flats on top (looked kinda like a hex head pipe plug) is the female fitting, and called a cap!
In Swedglok, it's because of the sealing surface.
But anyway...
And that burr on the end is going to make the mandrel go cockeyed, so the flare will look like the ones you've been making.
Not properly deburing instrument tubing has shut power plants down!
just went and tried it with a dab of grease on the die......and it came out pretty much perfect. So I think without the grease maybe it was twisting the top of the copper line and causing it to not flatten out smoothly.
So, I guess that's the answer :)
Weirdly enough, I've had the opposite experience: even when I was doing practice flares before I tried any on a vehicle, they all came out great. I did do a fair bit of reading before hand, however. I bought this flaring tool (basically the same thing Paddy posted) and some NiCopp brake line to fix the rear lines on a 2008 Outback (I got the seller to let me do this in his driveway so I could drive it home). To cut the tubing, I have a tiny little Ridgid pipe cutter, same style you see for copper water piping, which leaves a square cut every time (just have to be sure to clean out the burr). The flare tool came with some "Special Punch Grease", and I've been touching the mandrel to the grease before each operation (basically trying to get a thin film on the forming surface but not gobs that will end up in the tubing). I also keep the mandrel threads lubricated so that it's easier to feel what's going on between it and the tubing. During the actual forming operations I treat it similar to tapping a hole: go forward 1/4-1/2 a turn, then back 1/4-1/8 of a turn -- just enough to where the mandrel threads freely and any torsion in the tubing is relieved. Repeat until the mandrel bottoms out for both operations, and badda boom! Brake flare. Just don't forget to put the nut on first...
This style of flare tool is nice when you have the space. Compared to the classic bar and clamp style, it can be harder to fit into locations on the car, and it requires a longer length of straight tube behind the flare to clamp onto (especially since you also need room for the nut too). Adding in the room needed to tighten the two 10mm bolts it ends up needing more space to make a flare than I thought at first glance. That said, it makes nice flares consistently for me, and NiCopp is cheap, so it's not too bad to just replace a longer length of line to get to a location with more room (where possible).
Having done both steel and NiCopp, steel is a a PITA to both form and bend compared to NiCopp, and it will eventually rust so that you have to fix it again (especially where you have to peel back the coating to make the flare). Audi started using NiCopp in the early '90s, and they have no issues with brake line rust here in the rust belt. Subaru has used steel lines with coatings since the '90s and can commonly be found for sale cheap because they blew one or both rear lines where they come out from under the rear seat. Fortunately, I can say from experience that it's a pretty easy fix to run new lines from under the rear seat.
paddygarcia said:I've gotten really nice results with nicopp and this tool. You're welcome to borrow it but maybe Leesburg is a lite far.
Ive never done hard lines before until recently. I got a tool just like this and it works great. Made it easy. Was in the 30$ range on amazon.
I've never had problems with nicop. I have had tons of problems with cheap flaring tools.
i got a ridgid flarer (645?) and haven't had an issue since.
it isn't the most expensive but was 4x the price of the cheap ones and works great. Plus it doesn't take up much room and can do flares on the car
anyway, I didn't see what took you were using but if it's a loaner from a store or less than $100 that's probably at least contributing to the difficulties.
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