BRZ/FRS Twins

SlickDizzy wrote:

ThePhranc wrote: Vega was a small 4 banger front engine rear drive. It didn't sell that badly.

The Vega also had a reputation for horrid build quality and engines that melted themselves into scrap at an alarming speed...my father had one...frequently cites it as the worst vehicle he has ever owned.

Not just the worst car he ever owned, it was one of the worst cars ever made. My sister had two and the engine melted down at about 40K miles on both. Just about the time the warranty ran out. Don't ask me why she bought a second one when the first was so bad. It was slow (two speed automatic!), cheap plastic interior, horrible quality and you could watch it rust before your eyes. Both front shocks came through the towers after a couple of Michigan winters.

Excuse me now so I can go sit in my Miata and expunge the thought of those horrible things from my memory. It's what killed GM for me.

In reply to DeadSkunk:

lol, good point. Let me put it another way. I don't know if I could give up how many other toys $20k+ could buy me.

DeadSkunk wrote: If Toyota had decided to put an inline four in their version, I'd bet it wouldn't look as sleek because the hood might have to be higher than it currently is,although a Miata hood is low. The flat four is also pretty short, front to back, allowing the center of gravity to be further back.

The other thing to consider is Euro pedestrian impact rules. You can make a much softer, lower hood if you have a boxer engine (especially if the intake manifold collapses under impact) than if you make an I4.

On the subject of different engines, the BRZ/FRS was built (engine and all) with the intention of having a low center of gravity and light weight. A Toyota in-line four wouldn't have met the spacial needs of the project. Namely it wouldn't have been possible to situate it as far back and down in the car.

These design choices will also make engine swaps with these cars difficult without major modifications. They built this thing so tight that even just putting a turbo on it is apparently a challenge. This is upsetting a lot of people who fixate on power numbers because they want a bigger engine/turbo in there since 200HP doesn't sound impressive to many anymore.

As someone who dreams of someday owning a Lotus Elise I'm very interested in the BRZ because it was built to be an excellent handling car with good performance from a small engine and light body. I'm not interested in a drag racer.

In reply to brufleth: I'm with you on this. 200HP in a 2700 pound car will be plenty of fun, and if the handling is comparable to a Miata I'll be a happy man with a stock one. Power to weight ratio will be a little better than my MINI and I can get in plenty of trouble with it. I can't wait to get a test drive.

Just for a dating-yourself check, I'm in the 30-35 range, and I have no negative preconceptions of the Vega. At least for my generation and younger, our impression of the Vega is based on the remaining ones that have been smallblock swapped and run 9s.

Putting the Vega name on a small RWD GM car would likely sell well to us youngins.

They've already semi-officially let the cat out of the bag regarding a STi version, and a supercharged version for Scion.

DeadSkunk wrote: In reply to brufleth: I'm with you on this. 200HP in a 2700 pound car will be plenty of fun, and if the handling is comparable to a Miata I'll be a happy man with a stock one. Power to weight ratio will be a little better than my MINI and I can get in plenty of trouble with it. I can't wait to get a test drive.

An E30 with a much better suspension and 30more HP.

Sounds like a winner to me.

Just a matter if I can convince the wife to start driving the truck, and let me take her car and trade it in on one.

I think I am going to have to try these two cars out plus the Abarth. I am kinda thinking I would rather have the Abarth though.

93EXCivic wrote: I think I am going to have to try these two cars out plus the Abarth. I am kinda thinking I would rather have the Abarth though.

Hmmmm, fwd Fiat, or rwd Toyota.... I wonder which car will end up being more reliable for a longer time.........

Concerning fitting another engine... (PURE speculation) it will be VERY hard to fit another engine in there... and getting the car to perform appropriately... with that said, the scuddlebut on the tranmission is it is VERY similar to the earlier J160 that was in the Altezza/IS200. That would mean swapping the 6 speed J160 might not be too hard. That would then allow fitment of the "S", "T", and "G" engines....

..... but a low flat four will have a significantly lower center of gravity.... the other thing about the CG is to put a tall engine in, the entire cars handling geometry will need to be addressed, since the higher front CG... may really screw with overall handling dynamics.....

Concerning the GM rwd.... I hope and pray everyday that somehow the stars align.....????????

oldeskewltoy wrote: Concerning fitting another engine... (PURE speculation) it will be VERY hard to fit another engine in there... and getting the car to perform appropriately...

I respect this car, and if I owned one, would probably make minor, if any modifications...

but..

I give it six months max until someone has an LS1 in it.

Think it's going to be an LS1 or a 2jz first?

I'm guessing LS-something, most likely a rich kid or a magazine stuffs in a LS3 E-Rod kit from GM. It's expensive (over $6K) but keeps the car legal- It's made to pass Cali smog laws and it's a new engine so you don't have to worry about running afoul of backdating laws. My question is, will the transmission tunnel be big enough to fit a T-56 without creative clearancing or cutting?

Neither! F22C swap.

It is going to be in Canada this year.( If a woman at the Scion dealer answers the phone hang up and try again)

"Limited" availability vocabulary has me nervous already recalling the Miata inrush and price gouging. For some reason I assume the Subbaru version will be more $$$.

Hard to believe that for a car that is due in two months, the dealer has no price info.

Where did you hear two months?

Also, Scion USA has fixed base prices like Saturn and sells options a la carte, so they are (supposed to, at least) sell the FR-S at the price Toyota mandates. Scion dealers don't keep much inventory on hand, instead encouraging clients to build their own since there is no price negotiation anyway. They make most of their money on optional accessories like TRD suspension or mood lights.

Now, that may not stop Scion dealers from shadiness like jacking up the paperwork fees or only making cars loaded to the gills available for purchase, but it's too early to tell.

The LS3 E-Rod is only legal on pre-OBD-II cars at the moment. FYI, it's not the magic bullet.

If I was building one of these to get attention for a magazine and was going to do a motor swap, it would probably be a Coyote motor. Just for the unusual factor. I suspect an engine bay built around a flat four is going to make for difficult packaging with taller inline or V engines though.

For all the Toybaru love that's out there, I'm still disappointed that they felt that having a useless back seat was more important than being able to shift the motor back another foot. I guess from a marketing standpoint, the extra sales stemming from having a 2+2 makes sense. But from a performance standpoint, the improved weight distribution would be frosting on the cake.

icaneat50eggs wrote: who'd buy the toyota inline 4? much rather have the subi.

I'd buy the toyota. Subaru engines don't have the best track record lately. Maintenance intensive, headgasket failures, ring-land failures, rod bearing failures...

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Think it's going to be an LS1 or a 2jz first?

Is that the transmission that also bolts up to the 2.0 Ecotoec Turbo?... which wouldn't be a bad option at all for a reliable 300whp.

Like this, but backward... http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5335430-2JZ-Solstice-Swap

ProDarwin wrote:

icaneat50eggs wrote: who'd buy the toyota inline 4? much rather have the subi.

I'd buy the toyota. Subaru engines don't have the best track record lately. Maintenance intensive, headgasket failures, ring-land failures, rod bearing failures...

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Think it's going to be an LS1 or a 2jz first?

Is that the transmission that also bolts up to the 2.0 Ecotoec Turbo?... which wouldn't be a bad option at all for a reliable 300whp. Like this, but backward... http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5335430-2JZ-Solstice-Swap

I really have no idea... i haven't looked much into the guts of the Scionaru.

If it is the same transmission, could be pretty epic on many levels, though.

OH, and now i REALLY REALLY want a Sky.

That's the most ridiculous automotive-related coincidence i think i've EVER seen.

Keith wrote: The LS3 E-Rod is only legal on pre-OBD-II cars at the moment. FYI, it's not the magic bullet. If I was building one of these to get attention for a magazine and was going to do a motor swap, it would probably be a Coyote motor. Just for the unusual factor. I suspect an engine bay built around a flat four is going to make for difficult packaging with taller inline or V engines though.

I did not know that.

How about a 1AR-FE? It's the big-block of Toyota 4-bangers at 2.7L and is found in the Sienna. The current Scion tC drift car uses it. I suspect mounting it would be a challenge depending on how tall it is. We can rule out pretty much any GDI engine like the Mazda 2.3T DISI, it will be too tall.

kreb wrote: For all the Toybaru love that's out there, I'm still disappointed that they felt that having a useless back seat was more important than being able to shift the motor back another foot. I guess from a marketing standpoint, the extra sales stemming from having a 2+2 makes sense. But from a performance standpoint, the improved weight distribution would be frosting on the cake.

It's all about young people and insurance. 2+2s are always cheaper than 2-seaters when it comes to insurance and young people always want 2 more seats to cram friends into or throw their junk into.

clutchsmoke wrote: Neither! F22C swap.

WWAAAYYYY too tall.

RexSeven wrote:

Keith wrote: The LS3 E-Rod is only legal on pre-OBD-II cars at the moment. FYI, it's not the magic bullet. If I was building one of these to get attention for a magazine and was going to do a motor swap, it would probably be a Coyote motor. Just for the unusual factor. I suspect an engine bay built around a flat four is going to make for difficult packaging with taller inline or V engines though.

I did not know that. How about a 1AR-FE? It's the big-block of Toyota 4-bangers at 2.7L and is found in the Sienna. The current Scion tC drift car uses it. I suspect mounting it would be a challenge depending on how tall it is. We can rule out pretty much any GDI engine like the Mazda 2.3T DISI, it will be too tall.

Which drift car? I saw the one the Norwegian dude was doing demos in and it was a turbo BEAMS 3sge...

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

This one:

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1976/fredric-the-great-a-look-inside-the-papadakis-racing-scion-tc-of-fredric-aasbo.aspx