can an automatic be fun?

An automatic is almost mandatory when towing.. Makes manuvering the trailer much easier.

An auto can be fun. I thoroughly enjoy autocrossing my auto 350Z.

When pushing it though (autoX or racing), it needs one of the following:
telepathic shift programming
a reasonably well-done manual mode

It depends.

If you could get a 4L60E without spending $2000 for a new lower numerically first gear planetary gearset, I would say heck yes. They are stupid easy to do a flippy fiddly paddle shifter setup with the electronic setup in them. Plus the later model removable bellhousing, is a HUGE plus. Oh and it doesn't really suck up a ton of power either.

Even with available shift kits, auto's suck. My last 3 vehicle purchases have been auto's... I'm sick of auto's although I can rebuild them all in my driveway with minimal tools and low part prices, especially when compared to a comparable manual.

I have an auto G35 and it SUCKS! Even in “manual” mode. It would be a nice car with a third pedal, but as it is all it does is remind me how much better a manual trans is. In a pick-up truck, an auto is fine. In anything else, it is boring.

Been trying to do some research. It appears there are a few different ways to remove the torque converter. TCI has some options available. http://www.daymotorsports.com/product/787/TCI-POWERGLIDE-CLUTCH-PEDAL-VALVE-BODY/

I'm loving the tiptronic in my 06 passat.

I firmly, resolutely hate automatics! I think it's a joke when I see a sporty car with a auto.

That said, the guys above are right about full-size trucks and towing. My full size Chevy kills my left knee in traffic with its heavy clutch and tight trailer maneuvering is laborious at best. My next tow vehicle will have a 4L80E.

Trying to park or maneuver in a pit area is always easier with an automatic. Not to mention usually leaving the track after an event is beep and creep traffic. Hate riding the clutch for long periods of time. Automatics in a tow vehicle are mandatory for me. Lockup torque converters close the gap between autos and manuals at highway speeds.

Here's my take on it.

In an auto/DSG with flappy paddles, you never have to take your hands off the wheel when in competition. That means you can devote more attention to car placement and brake/throttle without having as much diversion in managing the car. With an autostick or sequential, it's somewhere in between, but you just have to smack the shift lever and not worry about missing the shift.

Ultimately, you just have to spend so much more time with a hand off the wheel in a manual.

Maybe I'm a little biased since I've only learned to drive manual in the past 2 years. Heel-toeing still feels slow and unwieldy to me.

Automatics have some real world empirical advantages:

-Torque multiplication when powering out of a corner
-No power interrupt between shifts
-Electronic control of shift time and lock up clutch parameters
-ABGM (Advanced Big Gulp Management)

What's missing from most applications is the right combination of parts and the right calibration. --which holds true for any darned thing. Small, light and tight torque converters DO exist. Electronic trans controllers are as effective as modern EFI systems. Efficiency differentials (flywheel to rear wheel) of 18% are entirely possible with the right combination. I would go so far as to say that the Jag XKR press car I drove today has the purrrrfect automatic. /Steevo

I guess the important question is, can a 4l60e be made "good" for significantly less money than a t56?

The car will be a daily driver so I'm not so against the use of an automatic. I've just always been biased against automatics. Maybe it's time to rethink.

scardeal wrote: Here's my take on it. In an auto/DSG with flappy paddles, you never have to take your hands off the wheel when in competition. That means you can devote more attention to car placement and brake/throttle without having as much diversion in managing the car. With an autostick or sequential, it's somewhere in between, but you just have to smack the shift lever and not worry about missing the shift. Ultimately, you just have to spend so much more time with a hand off the wheel in a manual. Maybe I'm a little biased since I've only learned to drive manual in the past 2 years. Heel-toeing still feels slow and unwieldy to me.

In a competition environment, here is no doubt that a dual clutch flappy paddle gearbox is the faster choice. But how often are you worried about the few tenths of a second per shift that you gain from that? Even on open track days in your street/track car are you really that worried about getting every minor advantage? And is that minor advantage worth giving up the enjoyment of driving a stick the remaining 99% of the time?

And long term maintenance is going to be an issue. In a few years when the DIYers get a hold of these cars and the warranties are done backyard mechanics are going jump at the chance to replace a Porsche 944 clutch vs trying to repair a SMG style trans

In reply to Taiden: Depends on what you will be doing with the car other than daily driver. For a competitive road race machine, the answer is no. For occasional autocross, the answer is yes. And for a car that fits in between hardcore road race and occasional autocross the answer is maybe. At the autocross, I place my car in 1st gear, then shift into second gear after launch. It stays there for the rest of the run. Second gear is second gear. At no point during the run do I think: "Gosh, I wish I had a 3rd pedal" or "do these 285's make my ass look big?"

I have a th400 in the Vette. I've autocrossed it with no problem same as Steve. Start in first, move to second and leave it there.

I do have 4L60e on a pallet in the garage however from a 96 Chevy Caprice Trooper car (9C1). TCI makes a controller and shift paddles for it. Makes me wonder how much I really need a manual for the occasional track day?

Rusnak_322 wrote: In a competition environment, here is no doubt that a dual clutch flappy paddle gearbox is the faster choice. But how often are you worried about the few tenths of a second per shift that you gain from that? Even on open track days in your street/track car are you really that worried about getting every minor advantage? And is that minor advantage worth giving up the enjoyment of driving a stick the remaining 99% of the time? And long term maintenance is going to be an issue. In a few years when the DIYers get a hold of these cars and the warranties are done backyard mechanics are going jump at the chance to replace a Porsche 944 clutch vs trying to repair a SMG style trans

In AutoX, I'm always worried about tenths of seconds. When the difference between the FTD and an average joe is maybe 10 seconds, a tenth can make a substantial difference. It's hard enough keeping track of throttle, brakes and steering when you average a change of direction every 2-3 seconds.

Frankly, I prefer the stick in regular driving because it keeps the activity level up on what would otherwise be very uneventful.

scardeal wrote: Frankly, I prefer the stick in regular driving because it keeps the activity level up on what would otherwise be very uneventful.

That's exactly it. I have found that when I drive an automatic, I drive like a total ass. It's almost like there is nothing to do, so I make things up. Things like swerving around cracks in the road and doing brake loaded launches at stoplights.

scardeal wrote:

Rusnak_322 wrote:

In AutoX, I'm always worried about tenths of seconds. When the difference between the FTD and an average joe is maybe 10 seconds, a tenth can make a substantial difference. It's hard enough keeping track of throttle, brakes and steering when you average a change of direction every 2-3 seconds. Frankly, I prefer the stick in regular driving because it keeps the activity level up on what would otherwise be very uneventful.

Even at an a lot of the AutoX - you have one shift from 1st to 2nd and that is it. That one shift can't be holding too many people back from a trophy.

Even if it was, is it worth the good for three mins of driving every couple of weeks vs the rest of the time you spend behind the wheel? (talking DD here - not full on race car)

Rusnak_322 wrote: Even at an a lot of the AutoX - you have one shift from 1st to 2nd and that is it. That one shift can't be holding too many people back from a trophy. Even if it was, is it worth the good for three mins of driving every couple of weeks vs the rest of the time you spend behind the wheel? (talking DD here - not full on race car)

Probably not many. I don't feel like I'm that fast of a shifter, so it probably would hold me back more than an old pro at it.

To clarify, although the shifting is fun, I don't feel like I'm missing out when I'm driving an auto. It's just different; not really boring. I probably drive ~90% in manual mode in the Z. When I'm just cruising or musing while I drive, I can throw it back in D and relax.

Automatics in a tow vehicle are mandatory for me. Lockup torque converters close the gap between autos and manuals at highway speeds.

Agree about the towing but disagree about "close" the gap. The gap is mostly because automatics just take a ton more power to turn than manuals, so the converter slippage is only one part of it. Of course in older trannies autos have less ratios as well but thats becoming less of an issue as far as efficiency.

In an auto/DSG with flappy paddles, you never have to take your hands off the wheel when in competition. That means you can devote more attention to car placement and brake/throttle without having as much diversion in managing the car.

Agree. Id rather race an electrically-controlled manual than do it myself. On the street, id rather do it myself.

Torque multiplication when powering out of a corner

Torque multiplication only occurs below the converter stall rpm. Basically, if you are flooring it you'll never get torque multiplication because you will always be at the stall speed or above after the first 10 ft or so.

No power interrupt between shifts

True, but as a caveat to that, you cant pick how hard you shift when WOT. Some high-power automatics, or even low-power cars with brutal shift kits, give you a real power spike on an upshift that will break traction. I remember driving a C5/4l60 at autocross where the 1-2 upshift happened at a small kink and that presented a slight problem. At higher speeds usually most things dont have so much power that a 2-3 or 3-4 shift presents problems.

Small, light and tight torque converters DO exist.

Good converters are a big hang-up for a lot of people because of what they cost. But then again, some people spend $500-$1k on a clutch thats major overkill for their app, so i guess its mostly about how you look at it.

I guess the important question is, can a 4l60e be made "good" for significantly less money than a t56?

When you put it that way i would say YES, only because its a lot easier to get a 4l60 for free or near-free than a t56. The thousand dollars you WONT spend getting a 4l60 in the first place buys a lot of parts.

Even on open track days in your street/track car are you really that worried about getting every minor advantage?

There are times when mis-shifting in mid-corner could = Death. Just sayin...

In a few years when the DIYers get a hold of these cars and the warranties are done backyard mechanics are going jump at the chance to replace a Porsche 944 clutch vs trying to repair a SMG style trans

Insofar as the enthusiasts rebuilding their own trans has and always will be a tiny minority, i think you are wrong. An automated manual, even a dual-clutch manual, is just a more complicated manual. It takes a fair amount of 'more complicated' to make any manual as complicated as a planetary-based auto to rebuild, especially considering modern 6-spd autos.

Frankly, I prefer the stick in regular driving because it keeps the activity level up on what would otherwise be very uneventful.

Best post in thread. That's really what it comes down to.