I went to the Performance Friction 11 compound when I finally bit the bullet and went with a true track pad. I currently use the same compound on my M2. Great pads -- pricey, but they are indeed durable.
They aren't really "streetable" . . . but they were more streetable on the M3 (maybe because the brakes are considerably smaller than on the M2).
Hmm, the squiggly lines indicate that the Elantra was consistently better at braking in most of the transitions. Could be tire difference, brake pads etc.
In reply to David S. Wallens :
'Feelings' can be very deceptive... "The proof is in the puddin"
David S. Wallens said:That weight comes from BMW, so we haven’t verified it. The 17-inch Apex wheels should save us a few pounds.
The thing I find amazing is both how heavy the E46 M3 is, but then how much of that weight comes out when you turn it into a race car. A gutted and caged Miata is maybe 200 pounds lighter than the original car, but my E46 M3 is over 700 pounds lighter than it was when stock.
As for the comparison to the Hyundai, that DCT is probably worth a second in lap time all by itself. While I love manuals for the driving experience, objectively they cannot keep up with modern automatics (especially DCTs) on the track, you just lose too much time shifting.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:David S. Wallens said:That weight comes from BMW, so we haven’t verified it. The 17-inch Apex wheels should save us a few pounds.
The thing I find amazing is both how heavy the E46 M3 is, but then how much of that weight comes out when you turn it into a race car. A gutted and caged Miata is maybe 200 pounds lighter than the original car, but my E46 M3 is over 700 pounds lighter than it was when stock.
As for the comparison to the Hyundai, that DCT is probably worth a second in lap time all by itself. While I love manuals for the driving experience, objectively they cannot keep up with modern automatics (especially DCTs) on the track, you just lose too much time shifting.
Wow. 700 lbs lighter? That is amazing. Do you recall what the big reduction items were? One guess would be the front seats. I would guess they weigh 60-70 lbs each. All of the airbags, sunroof cassette and wiring probably add up too.
z31maniac said:
I actually looked for an 04-06 M3 before I got my 135 back in Jan '18. But the color combo + condition/mileage requirement I had for them put all of them up in the low-to-mid 30s. And I was worried about the rod bearing stuff.
I would still be willing to replace the rod bearings every couple years if it meant I could get a daily dose of 8000rpm ITB six cylinder sounds.
Non convertible M3s seem to never change hands, though, and when they do people want what they're worth, none of that extreme depreciation that other German cars enjoy.
is the 225 width tire on the M3 a typo?
Pete. (l33t FS) said:z31maniac said:I actually looked for an 04-06 M3 before I got my 135 back in Jan '18. But the color combo + condition/mileage requirement I had for them put all of them up in the low-to-mid 30s. And I was worried about the rod bearing stuff.I would still be willing to replace the rod bearings every couple years if it meant I could get a daily dose of 8000rpm ITB six cylinder sounds.
Non convertible M3s seem to never change hands, though, and when they do people want what they're worth, none of that extreme depreciation that other German cars enjoy.
I watch this video every so often for that dose!
is the 225 width tire on the M3 a typo?
gencollon said:is the 225 width tire on the M3 a typo?
Stock E46 M3s came with staggered tires, 225 up front and 255 in the rear, on either 18 or 19" wheels. IIRC David converted his to 17" wheels to improve the ride.
...with a little fender work you can get square 295 Toyo RRs or 275 Hoosier R7s under there. :)
In reply to gencollon :
You are correct. That should be 255/40R17.
Speaking of, you can read more about the M3's current setup here:
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:gencollon said:is the 225 width tire on the M3 a typo?
Stock E46 M3s came with staggered tires, 225 up front and 255 in the rear, on either 18 or 19" wheels. IIRC David converted his to 17" wheels to improve the ride.
...with a little fender work you can get square 295 Toyo RRs or 275 Hoosier R7s under there. :)
That's kind of surprising. I know '95 M3s were 235 square, then 96-99 were 225/245. Would have figured an E46 M3 with nearly 100 more hp would get a larger bump out bump out back.
z31maniac said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:gencollon said:is the 225 width tire on the M3 a typo?
Stock E46 M3s came with staggered tires, 225 up front and 255 in the rear, on either 18 or 19" wheels. IIRC David converted his to 17" wheels to improve the ride.
...with a little fender work you can get square 295 Toyo RRs or 275 Hoosier R7s under there. :)
That's kind of surprising. I know '95 M3s were 235 square, then 96-99 were 225/245. Would have figured an E46 M3 with nearly 100 more hp would get a larger bump out bump out back.
The Euro M3 was a little over 300hp for the E36 models, so it's not particularly more power for the E46 in the grand scheme of things, just more weight. It only looks like a major bump because BMW deigned to send the good stuff to North America for the E46 but not the E36.
Sometimes I wonder if this wasn't part of the E36's charm, like the 240SX and 2.5RS. It was a chassis meant to cope with a lot more power than was actually served up.
Why didn’t the E36-chassis M3 get all the good stuff? We once got the answer from the guy who made that call: As soon as the E36-Chassis M3 arrived, BMW took it racing. In that article, Erik Wensberg explains why the U.S.-spec M3 didn’t get the really trick engine.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:z31maniac said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:gencollon said:is the 225 width tire on the M3 a typo?
Stock E46 M3s came with staggered tires, 225 up front and 255 in the rear, on either 18 or 19" wheels. IIRC David converted his to 17" wheels to improve the ride.
...with a little fender work you can get square 295 Toyo RRs or 275 Hoosier R7s under there. :)
That's kind of surprising. I know '95 M3s were 235 square, then 96-99 were 225/245. Would have figured an E46 M3 with nearly 100 more hp would get a larger bump out bump out back.
The Euro M3 was a little over 300hp for the E36 models, so it's not particularly more power for the E46 in the grand scheme of things, just more weight. It only looks like a major bump because BMW deigned to send the good stuff to North America for the E46 but not the E36.
Sometimes I wonder if this wasn't part of the E36's charm, like the 240SX and 2.5RS. It was a chassis meant to cope with a lot more power than was actually served up.
I know all about the S50B32. That used to be the hot engine to try to get before they figured out the S54 swap for E30/E36s. But few did because of the cost of getting one stateside.
Side note: I think part of the reason the S54 had such bearing issues is it used the same bore spacing going all the way back to the M20B25(you could use an of the S50/52/54 and M5x engines to build stroker M20s). An engine that made 168hp at 5800 rpm, not 333hp at 8000 rpm. So same bearing width for dramatically more power and RPM.
z31maniac said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:gencollon said:is the 225 width tire on the M3 a typo?
Stock E46 M3s came with staggered tires, 225 up front and 255 in the rear, on either 18 or 19" wheels. IIRC David converted his to 17" wheels to improve the ride.
...with a little fender work you can get square 295 Toyo RRs or 275 Hoosier R7s under there. :)
That's kind of surprising. I know '95 M3s were 235 square, then 96-99 were 225/245. Would have figured an E46 M3 with nearly 100 more hp would get a larger bump out bump out back.
Sure, but they don't really make any more torque.
Someone asked about the big ticket weight items -- there's the obvious (seats, sunroof, a dozen speakers), plus lots of sound deadening and 50-60 pounds for the OEM muffler. My car got a carbon roof and lexan rear/side windows, as well as gutted doors (but not carbon doors). Lots of little brackets to cut off the chassis, no heater core, cut down dash, and you don't need the rear bulkhead in a race car. Combine the weight reduction with intake/header/exhaust/tune and you've got a car with 8 lbs per hp, which is pretty fun.
Anyone built a race car out of an Elantra? How light do they get?
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:z31maniac said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:gencollon said:is the 225 width tire on the M3 a typo?
Stock E46 M3s came with staggered tires, 225 up front and 255 in the rear, on either 18 or 19" wheels. IIRC David converted his to 17" wheels to improve the ride.
...with a little fender work you can get square 295 Toyo RRs or 275 Hoosier R7s under there. :)
That's kind of surprising. I know '95 M3s were 235 square, then 96-99 were 225/245. Would have figured an E46 M3 with nearly 100 more hp would get a larger bump out bump out back.
Sure, but they don't really make any more torque.
Someone asked about the big ticket weight items -- there's the obvious (seats, sunroof, a dozen speakers), plus lots of sound deadening and 50-60 pounds for the OEM muffler. My car got a carbon roof and lexan rear/side windows, as well as gutted doors (but not carbon doors). Lots of little brackets to cut off the chassis, no heater core, cut down dash, and you don't need the rear bulkhead in a race car. Combine the weight reduction with intake/header/exhaust/tune and you've got a car with 8 lbs per hp, which is pretty fun.
Anyone built a race car out of an Elantra? How light do they get?
According to the specs, the Elantra N TCR has a minimum race weight of 2788 including driver.
https://motorsport.hyundai.com/racing/tcr/tech-specs-elantra-n-tcr/
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:z31maniac said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:gencollon said:is the 225 width tire on the M3 a typo?
Stock E46 M3s came with staggered tires, 225 up front and 255 in the rear, on either 18 or 19" wheels. IIRC David converted his to 17" wheels to improve the ride.
...with a little fender work you can get square 295 Toyo RRs or 275 Hoosier R7s under there. :)
That's kind of surprising. I know '95 M3s were 235 square, then 96-99 were 225/245. Would have figured an E46 M3 with nearly 100 more hp would get a larger bump out bump out back.
Sure, but they don't really make any more torque.
Someone asked about the big ticket weight items -- there's the obvious (seats, sunroof, a dozen speakers), plus lots of sound deadening and 50-60 pounds for the OEM muffler. My car got a carbon roof and lexan rear/side windows, as well as gutted doors (but not carbon doors). Lots of little brackets to cut off the chassis, no heater core, cut down dash, and you don't need the rear bulkhead in a race car. Combine the weight reduction with intake/header/exhaust/tune and you've got a car with 8 lbs per hp, which is pretty fun.
Anyone built a race car out of an Elantra? How light do they get?
That's a pretty good number.
dyintorace said:According to the specs, the Elantra N TCR has a minimum race weight of 2788 including driver.
IIRC TCR cars start as "bodies in white", so while it is a production chassis it's going to be lighter than it's really practical to get something that started life as a street car -- at least not without a TON of work.
Just to add a few more data points, when we looked at BimmerWorld’s track E46 M3, it weighed 2900 pounds without driver.
David S. Wallens said:Just to add a few more data points, when we looked at BimmerWorld’s track E46 M3, it weighed 2900 pounds without driver.
I would love to drive something like that on track. I only have the two extremes.
NA and NB Miatas, Sportbikes. Even with me on it, my R6 was 5.3lbs per HP. We had my R6 tuned up to 115whp HP through intake, velocity stack, full exhaust and tune. It was a riot.
z31maniac said:David S. Wallens said:Just to add a few more data points, when we looked at BimmerWorld’s track E46 M3, it weighed 2900 pounds without driver.
I would love to drive something like that on track. I only have the two extremes.
NA and NB Miatas, Sportbikes. Even with me on it, my R6 was 5.3lbs per HP.
It does look fun, doesn’t it?
A friend recently autocrossed an Elantra N in SCCA D Street class and it is right up there with, though maybe not exceeding the Civic Type R. He's on 200TW and is an above average driver though not National trophy level maybe. It was a tighter course so didn't get into third I don't think, but he had a great day, was third overall on Index results at a chapter with some very competitive drivers and a lot of people were amazed. The DCT is super smooth. I'm sure it would be significantly faster with some more negative camber and wider wheels/tires to match the E46, but this comparo of an essentially stock car is eye-opening.
The E46 setup described is way short on camber for autocross, though I'm unsure if going to the optimum -4.0 or more would gain enough speed on a faster course like the FIRM from the slight loss in braking.
In reply to PT_SHO :
Yes, the Elantra N is way faster than you’d think–good street car, too. I recently drove one from here in Daytona to Savannah and back. It’s quiet and comfortable. Huge trunk, too.
And, true, the M3 doesn’t have max negative camber. The alignment is still rather street friendly. Still, a close contest between two seeminly different machines.
In reply to Tom1200 :
I fully agree but sadly it's hard to find anything for the Hyundai. I use Castrol SRF and stock brakes with 18" Traklites with Falken Azenis RT660s and enjoy myself at Sebring, Daytona, and even the firm. Wish I could find and afford more goodies. Having previously worked for BMW I was able to own several BMW Ms including the amazing 1M. Back then my favorite track was Mid-Ohio
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