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Dootz
Dootz New Reader
4/2/19 12:12 a.m.

In reply to Knurled. :

Yeah, wtf? How did my post get interpreted into me trying to avoid maintenance? lol

I just want to not have to do a lot of adjustments to fix issues that the factory should have solved. In other words, cars /9like the Miata and Civic) that can be modified cheap enough so that the total amount I'd have spent wouldn't go high enough into purchasing a far superior vehicle in the first place.

Issues I have with the Miata itself is feeling cramped and a necessity to bracing the non-rigid chassis (for NAs, at least). Mustang? Crap suspension all around. Camaro? Crap differential. RX-8? Crap rotary. Civic/hot hatches? FWD. BMWs? Cooling system problems and subframe tearing. Anything else that doesn't have these problems seemingly has a boat-anchor of an engine that should be swapped to an LS

Something akin to a Porsche on a budget - maintenance needed, but that's it. A car that doesn't leave you feeling like something could be improved

djsilver
djsilver Reader
4/2/19 12:32 a.m.
Dootz said:

In reply to Knurled. :

Yeah, wtf? How did my post get interpreted into me trying to avoid maintenance? lol

I just want to not have to do a lot of adjustments to fix issues that the factory should have solved. In other words, cars /9like the Miata and Civic) that can be modified cheap enough so that the total amount I'd have spent wouldn't go high enough into purchasing a far superior vehicle in the first place.

Issues I have with the Miata itself is feeling cramped and a necessity to bracing the non-rigid chassis (for NAs, at least). Mustang? Crap suspension all around. Camaro? Crap differential. RX-8? Crap rotary. Civic/hot hatches? FWD. BMWs? Cooling system problems and subframe tearing. Anything else that doesn't have these problems seemingly has a boat-anchor of an engine that should be swapped to an LS

Something akin to a Porsche on a budget - maintenance needed, but that's it. A car that doesn't leave you feeling like something could be improved

"Porsche on a budget" complete with IMS bearings, D-chunked cylinders, dropped cylinder liners, coolant lines escaping their homes...,  ;-)

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
4/2/19 5:15 a.m.
Dootz said:

In reply to Knurled. :

Yeah, wtf? How did my post get interpreted into me trying to avoid maintenance? lol

I just want to not have to do a lot of adjustments to fix issues that the factory should have solved. In other words, cars /9like the Miata and Civic) that can be modified cheap enough so that the total amount I'd have spent wouldn't go high enough into purchasing a far superior vehicle in the first place.

Issues I have with the Miata itself is feeling cramped and a necessity to bracing the non-rigid chassis (for NAs, at least). Mustang? Crap suspension all around. Camaro? Crap differential. RX-8? Crap rotary. Civic/hot hatches? FWD. BMWs? Cooling system problems and subframe tearing. Anything else that doesn't have these problems seemingly has a boat-anchor of an engine that should be swapped to an LS

Something akin to a Porsche on a budget - maintenance needed, but that's it. A car that doesn't leave you feeling like something could be improved

Vehicles are made to appeal to certain buyers while making the manufacturer profit. Imperfect humans are involved in every step of the process, and the results are (unsurprisingly) imperfect. They're not intended to be the best of everything all the time that will last forever. There are sacrifices made in the design and manufacturing process for nearly everything, and the things with no sacrifices cost a ton of money and hold their value so they never get to your <4k price point. The McLaren F1 was a single man's vision of automotive perfection with a "No compromises" approach to it's design and production. They're not going to be <4k ever because of supply and demand. Everybody wants as much as they can get for as little as possible, and that's exactly why things with fewer flaws cost more and things that are cheap have more flaws.

You're asking why isn't there a cheap, perfect vehicle out there (Your idea of perfect) and the answer is that things that are good cost money. You can buy a cheap thing and spend money addressing areas that the factory compromised on, or you can spend more upfront and get something with fewer compromises for your specific tastes. But even a vehicle with fewer compromises will never be perfect. The only way to make something that's perfect to you is to make it yourself.

A 4k Mustang is going to need suspension freshening anyway. There are plenty of options in the aftermarket to improve the "crap suspension" to be good enough for whatever you're doing with the car.

A 4k Camaro probably needs some differential servicing, new axle bearings, etc anyway. Take that opportunity to upgrade the rear axle and get the perfect gear ratio.

Go through the coolant system on the BMW with better than factory parts and make it good for another 100k+.

Pick the things that are most critical to you that you're unwilling to sacrifice (engine, drivetrain layout, exterior design, "ideal" suspension design, reliability, fuel type, etc) and look at the vehicles that have that. Then, look at the areas that will need improvement on those vehicles and see how difficult/expensive/possible it might be to "fix" the problem areas. Go through the vehicle and fix the weakest links one by one until the whole is better than when you started, and you get closer and closer to your idea of the perfect vehicle.

 

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand UberDork
4/2/19 8:44 a.m.

Every fun car I've ever owned has factory flaws.  Even our EG Civic eventually tore the rear subframe, nothing some angle iron and a welder couldn't take care of in about 30min.

The risk with every fun car mentioned above is that they're a quarter century old and/or beat to hell by 5 or more previous owners.  Probably going to come down to finding the best example from what sounds like a wide range of candidates.  

Wiscocrashtest
Wiscocrashtest New Reader
4/2/19 9:09 a.m.

woooahoahoah.

Did someone just suggest an Volvo "R" in the cars *without* flaws thread?? Because that is the opposite.

Angle gear easily addressed? Causing wear? Yes, it slips and causes all the splines to wear off at once. Sure it can be fixed but it's not cheap and not a fun DIY. If you have a manual car either get used to fixing this a few times or never launch in 1st or 2nd. Or tight corners. Actually just don't use more than 50% throttle. Also tunes are out.

The manuals suffer from exploding slave cylinders, its in the middle of the clutch so trashes the clutch when it goes.

Exhaust bracket placed where it can catch on things, will end up bending the driveshaft and/or causing the shaft to sing on the exhaust.

Front axles are weak and specific to AWD M66 cars. About $700 a pop.

Typical Volvo issue where the parking brake can stick over time (internal drum design). Mine stuck and grenaded on the corrosion debris left when it un-stuck.

The 4C shocks wear out every other year and are ~$250 a corner. You'll also be due for brakes at this time. At least the Brembos are a breeze to work on. 

Once you have everything working, the car will not be very fun to drive at 10/10ths and the suspension will be too rough at 4/10ths. 

Buy a FWD T5 instead with a side of Miata. 

All this info from direct ownership experience from a multi-Volvo fan of the brand. I loved/hated that car.

Nick Comstock
Nick Comstock MegaDork
4/2/19 9:15 a.m.

My thought process when reading this thread.

Hmm, I wouldn't mind a Volvo R. That sounds pretty great. Uh, nevermind. 

Wiscocrashtest
Wiscocrashtest New Reader
4/2/19 9:33 a.m.

In reply to Nick Comstock :

I may have been being a bit dramatic but I did go through all those repairs. My 04 V70R 6-spd was parked for repairs for more time that it was on the road when I owned it. It was a long time bucketlist car for me and I am glad I did it but also glad it is gone. If I had a fleet of 5 or more cars it would be nice to have one in the mix but not when I have to depend on it. 

The seats are the best I've ever used, the motor is actually the reliable part and makes a great noise, and all the usual wagon bonuses. It was a conflicted car, a lot of fun, and (to me) the very definition of flawed.

mtn
mtn MegaDork
4/2/19 9:43 a.m.
Dootz said:

In reply to Knurled. :

Yeah, wtf? How did my post get interpreted into me trying to avoid maintenance? lol

I just want to not have to do a lot of adjustments to fix issues that the factory should have solved. In other words, cars /9like the Miata and Civic) that can be modified cheap enough so that the total amount I'd have spent wouldn't go high enough into purchasing a far superior vehicle in the first place.

Issues I have with the Miata itself is feeling cramped and a necessity to bracing the non-rigid chassis (for NAs, at least). Mustang? Crap suspension all around. Camaro? Crap differential. RX-8? Crap rotary. Civic/hot hatches? FWD. BMWs? Cooling system problems and subframe tearing. Anything else that doesn't have these problems seemingly has a boat-anchor of an engine that should be swapped to an LS

Something akin to a Porsche on a budget - maintenance needed, but that's it. A car that doesn't leave you feeling like something could be improved

Based on what I see with Porsches in stock autocross classes, (or street, as they're called now), that doesn't even exist on a Porsche budget. Those guys are still changing out the shocks and tires, sway bars...

 

You're looking for something that doesn't exist. Probably the closest that you are going to get is a Miata or a Corvette, but that will be out of your price range. OR something like a Prius--there is nothing that I would do to improve a Prius, it is perfect FOR ITS APPLICATION as is.

 

Every car has a compromise. If it didn't, the hermaphrodite unicorn that farts rainbows and pisses your favorite beer would exist: A with the handling the Miata that gets the MPG of a Tesla, fits as much as a minivan and tows as much as a Cummins. It doesn't exist. Everything is a compromise, especially at our level---there is almost no one outside of the general autosport community that would ever think the NA needs more bracing. 

 

What is your end goal? A nice DD? A competitive autocrosser? Trackday, Bro? Impress the ladies (minivan is the answer to that, btw)?

mtn
mtn MegaDork
4/2/19 9:49 a.m.

And if you're looking for a car that has little to no issues to fix, I  have a Miata that I'd sell today for $4,250. It should have had just about any issue addressed--it has a roll  bar, which addresses the rigidity. Has had a foamectomy that addresses some of the cramped feeling (although you could get even better with a race seat). Rust free. Then, it was made even better than factory: Ground control coil overs with koni sports. Flyin Miata adjustable front swaybar. Camber Bolts. New Clutch Slave and Master. New Battery. Miata Rtype front lip. Past 3 owners, including me, are members of this forum. Also comes with a bunch of extras. Seriously, if you're looking for a turn-key solution to what it appears your problem is, something like this is probably as good as you'll find.

 

 

 

 

Antihero
Antihero GRM+ Memberand Dork
4/2/19 10:10 a.m.

Id probably look for designs that have been used for many years and sold bunches, then sort from there.

 

No car is gonna be foolproof though, i have a 2000 explorer, they made buttloads of them, had made them for 9 years at that point, has the ford 8.8, dana 35 and an engine originally from 1962....not the one with 3 timing chains. The front suspension is a known issue apparently, parts counter guy went on and on about the IAC problem and the transmissions can be bitchy.

 

But ive owned mine 13 years now, 255k miles, doesnt leak oil nor burn it. Transmission is doing good so far, kinda lurches into reverse when its real cold but meh, IAC was the easiest repair in the world, a whole 5 minutes and 2 bolts so i have no idea WTF there. I did have a vibration in the front that i had to track down that wasnt the suspensions fault ( wallowed out lugnut holes from the previous owner). No car is absolutely bomb proof, every car has a small something

Robbie
Robbie UltimaDork
4/2/19 10:11 a.m.

I think OP should buy an XJR!

mtn
mtn MegaDork
4/2/19 10:19 a.m.
Robbie said:

I think OP should buy an XJR!

I think that is good advice for everyone!

Wiscocrashtest
Wiscocrashtest New Reader
4/2/19 10:46 a.m.

Yes, any of the sub-$4000 Jaguar-Land Rover products should be trouble-free at this point. YOLO

captdownshift
captdownshift GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
4/2/19 10:55 a.m.

Toyota Echo or Tercel 

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/19 11:53 a.m.

In reply to Wiscocrashtest :

It sounds like all of your problems were related to having a 6 speed manual, which I specifically mentioned is something to avoid...

thatsnowinnebago
thatsnowinnebago GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
4/2/19 12:50 p.m.

I picked my 99 Miata for $3k. That addresses a lot of bracing you want to add to an NA, and brings some more power to the table. It does have E36 M3ty paint, and I dropped right about $1500 into it to catch up on deferred maintenance/"while I'm in there" mods.

Seems like the deprecation curves for early NBs have a pretty strong intersect with decent NAs now.

Robbie
Robbie UltimaDork
4/2/19 1:10 p.m.
Wiscocrashtest said:

Yes, any of the sub-$4000 Jaguar-Land Rover products should be trouble-free at this point. YOLO

well, i'm sort of serious. If we're not including lack of maintenance as a flaw, then buying a cheap top range jag/benz/bmw/lexus and doing all that deferred maintenance (quite possibly a lot) will net you a very nice car for $4k. 

Look for 'status cars' that are now old enough that they no longer have 'status'. 

Robbie
Robbie UltimaDork
4/2/19 1:15 p.m.
Robbie
Robbie UltimaDork
4/2/19 1:18 p.m.
dxman92
dxman92 Reader
4/4/19 11:46 a.m.

Nissan Versa Sedan, Hatch or Note hatchback. You could find a decent stick shift one in the $4-$5k range. Mine has been pretty decent and can't beat if you need solid transportation. They are used as taxis in some cities in Central/ South America fwiw..

morello159
morello159 New Reader
4/4/19 2:49 p.m.

Toyota Camry. Runs forever. Not worth modifying. Problem solved.

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