As I've mentioned in a lot of other posts, I'm looking for a rallycross car that will eventually become a stage rally car.
What are your opinions of 5th generation Celicas v. 1st generation Neons as possible options?
As I've mentioned in a lot of other posts, I'm looking for a rallycross car that will eventually become a stage rally car.
What are your opinions of 5th generation Celicas v. 1st generation Neons as possible options?
Hm. I'd rather have the Neon for for dirt duty for capability and ease of finding spares. If used for street duty at all, I'd much rather have the Celica.
ValuePack wrote: Hm. I'd rather have the Neon for for dirt duty for capability and ease of finding spares. If used for street duty at all, I'd much rather have the Celica.
Why is that? The Celica GT and GT-S share drivetrains with the Camry, and the ST shares parts with the Corolla. Seems like there's plenty of spare parts out there if you know where to look.
EDIT: One thing I will say about the Celicas, though, is that the non-turbo S-block is known for having oiling problems. I've blown one up myself at a rallycross. If you do go that route, make DAMN sure you've got an oil pressure guage and I'd even go so far as to add an oil accumulator setup.
ReverendDexter wrote:ValuePack wrote: Hm. I'd rather have the Neon for for dirt duty for capability and ease of finding spares. If used for street duty at all, I'd much rather have the Celica.Why is that?
I don't know how things are in Carson's neck of the woods, but I'm from New England; most of the 5th gen Celicas have rusted away to dust by now. Finding one locally to pull parts from is neigh on impossible.
ReverendDexter wrote:ValuePack wrote: Hm. I'd rather have the Neon for for dirt duty for capability and ease of finding spares. If used for street duty at all, I'd much rather have the Celica.Why is that? The Celica GT and GT-S share drivetrains with the Camry, and the ST shares parts with the Corolla. Seems like there's plenty of spare parts out there if you know where to look. EDIT: One thing I will say about the Celicas, though, is that the non-turbo S-block is known for having oiling problems. I've blown one up myself at a rallycross. If you do go that route, make DAMN sure you've got an oil pressure guage and I'd even go so far as to add an oil accumulator setup.
The S-block really only becomes a problem if it hasn't been previously cared for 99.9% of the time. I ran my last one to 218k miles and was spraying a 75 shot at the time i sold it. Still had original gaskets, motor was never opened for any reason. It ran like a weasel on fire. It's STILL running, for that matter.
I would honestly pick the Celica. While there is that possibility of oiling issues, blocks are easy to find if you blow one, the transmissions are bulletproof, and the 420A in the Neon doesn't have a stellar track record either.
I think the Celica is built better and would hold up to the rigors of rallycross better without bending key suspension components. Make sure you find a good one first, though.
As said before, if you're ever going to drive it on the street, Celica all the way. Otherwise, there's not THAT much scratch between the two if you're just going to turn it into a dirt whore.
how easy is it to buy suspension replacement parts for the celica?
my first instinct was to say toyota, but our salvage yards are chock full of nearly free neon stuff to repair damage.
belteshazzar wrote: how easy is it to buy suspension replacement parts for the celica? my first instinct was to say toyota, but our salvage yards are chock full of nearly free neon stuff to repair damage.
It's readily available. The only part that really hurts is that the strut mounts are expensive. Like $50 apiece.
GR2s will run you about $240 for the full set. I'll have a set of stock springs early next month that i could spot you for like $25 + shipping.
935Motorsports has the poly bushing kit for a fair price. The car has a ridiculously good brake system that for all intents and purposes, was meant for a 3400lb alltrac.
What's your budget?
Thanks for the replies so far!
The budget is always the cheaper the better. All said and done I'm wanting under around $3000 in rallycross configuration, much more later on for stage stuff.
Rust isn't an issue. Running Celicas (ST) can be found sub $400 the occasional GT pops up in that range too. Neons are still in the $1000 range for a decent one.
As for the S engine, I love the 5SFE in my MR2.
93celicaGT2: I might take you up on that offer, I'll let you know which way I go.
Keep the inputs coming!
Carson wrote: As for the S engine, I love the 5SFE in my MR2.
Some people might consider this blasphemy. Myself? This makes me squeal with glee.
It's a torquey mofo, that's for sure. My 5sfe crowning glory was spanking a 93 Integra GSR 5 times in a row down the drag strip in my 93 Celica GT Coupe. He was right on my butt at the end, but there's something to be said for the relatively insane out the hole capability of launching a 5sfe at 3k rpms.
I wouldn't bother messing with the ST. What you're looking for is a GT coupe. 90-93. Close to the same weight, WAY faster, and still a fairly stiff chassis. Price is similar.
Or if you can find a 4th gen GT with a blown motor, the 5sfe is a pretty easy swap, and that isn't slow either. 4th gen GTS w/ 3sge would be a solid bet, too, but they tend to command a higher price for anything worth buying compared to 5th gen GT.
Engines etc wouldn't be a concern..
I would be concerned with:
Availability of LSD
Getting suspension travel for cheap...
Answer those questions and you'll get the "better" rally car
ignorant wrote: Engines etc wouldn't be a concern.. I would be concerned with: 1. Availability of LSD 2. Getting suspension travel for cheap... Answer those questions and you'll get the "better" rally car
I know that LSD is fairly easily found for Neons. For celicas.... you can still get it, but it involves a transmission swap and probably some more money.
Suspension travel on the Neon i can't speak for. For Celicas, you can adapt some of the suspensions made for AllTracs/GT4s to fit relatively easily. On the other hand, they do have rather large travel to start with.
If Carson is looking to be nationally competitive in stage Rally, then the Neon would probably be a better choice since it's a road that's probably been traveled before. No one really rallys the celicas with the exception of the AWD variants.
Here's what I was planning to do with a Neon (only because I have researched this further and the Celica is a newer thought):
I'm not (currently) looking to be nationally competitive, just locally and initially in rallycross.
I like the Celica because it's different, as mentioned, and the initial purchase price is lower.
You won't be having to do anything to the tranny with the Celica. If you get one with a good clutch, it'll last forever, too. My first one lasted 168k miles and was still plenty driveable when i replaced it. They bite HARD.
As for getting more travel, i'm not sure what the easiest way to do that would be, short of taking some measurements and grabbing some similar springs. Camry springs MIGHT fit around the celica struts, that's a thought worth looking into.
The seat you could do on the cheap, too, unless you're looking for a light expensive fancy cheap. The Celica GTS seats bolt right in, and they have HUGE bolsters.
The stock steering wheel is a little large, if that's your preference. I personally think it would give you some needed leverage to horse it around in the dirt, but again, that's more up to you.
The 92-93 GT will come with a nice pretty light 15x6.5 wheel. And keep in mind that they came with 205/55-15s stock, which i'm sure is rather larger than the Neon's rolling stock, if that's what you're looking for.
I think the initial investment on the Celica to get it dialed in to where you're happy would be less, but to REALLY build it up for Stage Rally? The Neon might be a cheaper choice.
And consider it this way.... stock for stock, the celica was a superior car to start with (open to debate of course), and you'll probably get a lot more car for your money that way.
15" wheels would make gravel tires much easier. I can pick up used ones from the Subaru guys.
I'll have to research the suspension stuff. Initially I'd like to go with something that will be a stiffer rate plus some ground clearance with GR-2s, later on I'll pick up something valved for gravel and the abuse.
I like the Celica idea, I'm rooting for it.
MP had made rally springs for the Neon. Youmay want to check the Neon boards for a set.
Carson wrote: 15" wheels would make gravel tires much easier. I can pick up used ones from the Subaru guys. I'll have to research the suspension stuff. Initially I'd like to go with something that will be a stiffer rate plus some ground clearance with GR-2s, later on I'll pick up something valved for gravel and the abuse. I like the Celica idea, I'm rooting for it.
Maybe you could grab some cheap Eibachs or something and run a spacer of some sort?
If you're serious about this, you might want to start trolling around alltrac.net and see what they run. TRD made a rally spring for the alltrac back in the day, and they pop up from time to time. You might even get slightly more clearance on the lighter GT vs. the AllTrac.
Honestly, i think the biggest problem with the Celica will be how the body is shaped. There's a rather large overhang/"snout" on the 5th gen which sometimes poses a problem with bad driveways/entrances off main roads even at stock height. But it can't be THAT bad.... the GT4 was a huge contender in the 90s anyways, and it had that same overhang. If you trash a bumper, i've got a spare or two of those, too.
Look around alltrac.net and join celicatech.com so you can read their forums, and i'm sure you'll be able to find some info.
I'll actually start a thread for you on Alltrac.net asking about springs that will give more clearance before i go home, and i'll update you on that as i get responses.
Dang yo! 93celicaGT2, you're awesome! Want to co-drive? haha.
Carson wrote: Dang yo! 93celicaGT2, you're awesome! Want to co-drive? haha.
Sure! If i could ever make the change through my brain on how to drive on dirt... Unfortunately, most of my "experience" comes from Drag Racing and a smattering of autocrosses, and my yearly Dragon Run. It's been engrained in my brain that "sliding is bad."
I just get excited when a subject comes up on this board that i actually know something about. I'd help more on Honda stuff, but the Hongs seem to have that covered and most of my Hondas were death traps. Fast... but death traps.
The Celicas have really been the only cars that i've ever spent any time to properly learn about them on.
If you were located closer, i'd be more than happy to help you out co-driving, wrenching, sourcing parts, whatever.
I can show you how to get a decent increase out of that 5sfe motor of yours, too. 
I MIGHT be persuaded to trade my hatch for your Terrarium.... but you'd have to do some suspension work to the Celica to suit your needs, and i think an MR2 would get me in a LOT of trouble, since it's more accepting to some of my dumber ideas that i can't do to the Celica.
Thread posted. I'm usually only on here at work (sounds backwards, huh?) so if you get bored, you can troll for results while i'm attempting to roll some fenders tonite. 
http://alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=307502#307502
Sweet!
The Terrarium is for sale, it's posted locally. It will, in part, be funding this project. A trade would kill two birds with one stone.
Out of curiousity... two offtopic questions:
1) How much?
2) Would it drive back to Indy?
I was more joking with the trade.... you'd have to pretty much rebuild this car's suspension, it's the exact opposite of what you're looking for currently and i just spent over $500 on body parts that you'd put through hell. 
But you'd be able to fit a HELL of a tire on it. And it's got plenty of room for a HUGE intercooler!
1) It's listed for $3500. I'll take less
2) It shouldn't give you an issue going to IN. The thermostat is stuck open as of last week, I have a new one, haven't replaced it yet. The tires are out of balance so there is a vibration above 75 mph. Other than that, it's awesome.
If it wasn't a T-Bar car it would be my rally car.
Also, I figured you were joking but I thought I'd mention it just in case, also to let it known that its for sale. Special deals for GRMers! (Not challenge money though)
Entirely fair price... just a bit rich for my blood. If i were to pick it up i'd bus out there on the 15th of April, throw some rubber on it, and then show to the Dragon Celica meet in that.
How about trade for a 93 Escort GT? (provided you don't look at the money spent on it in my sig, even though you've got similar. )
This one i AM serious about. I keep forgetting i even have the car since it sits at the shop awaiting me to button up the last couple parts i have for it. Has stock suspension with ridiculous wheel gap on it at the moment, i'll throw in the Tokico/Eibach combo for free for if you want to swap it over occasionally for autocross or track days.
Send me a message or something, even if you aren't interested in that trade at all, i'd be more than happy to try to answer any other celica/mr2/5sfe questions or track down parts for you.
Anything else I should be considering short of starting a new thread?
Cheap, plentiful, tough.
This isn't a pick two, those are the main requirements. This is also a time where I would prefer 2wd fwd, but I'm open. Volvo 240s (although rwd) are being considered but what else? Saab 900s aren't really around, what about NG900s after I strip them of their luxo interiors?
Here's something not too far off topic but potentially very laughable:
What about a Corolla? Not the cooler 80s stuff, purely the mid-90s econo stuff.
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