challenge question dealer licence car purchas.

Even if "inside deals" are interpreted mean any deal that is not advertised through a public medium as being for sale freely to all members of the general public, the rules explicitly state that "inside deals" are fair & legal as long as they are budgeted at FMV. If the "inside deal" aspect didn't really save any money over potentially reasonable FMV, but merely provided availability, then there is no reason it doesn't also meet the "spirit" of the rule specifically allowing it.

Do you also feel the same way about buying any build items at FMV (or being gifted and budgeting at FMV) direct from known parties?...Would you turn down good parts budgeted at FMV from a friend, instead preferring to buy all build items at FMV exclusively advertised by strangers? What about buying from one of the many websites that require some level of membership just to view the items available for sale? Numerous car forums have a membership requirement to view the classifieds section, and sometimes even a post count requirement before being able to do more than just view them. This is no different.

Appleseed wrote: But can you, your self, apply and receive a dealer licence of your own? If I wanted the deals a licence gets me, I'd get one. Just as a welder allows me to glue metal together. I concider it a tool.

Haha. That's funny. If you want to be a dealer you don't just go down to the city and buy a license. I tried. I can't get a license unless I have a place of business ($$$!), the proper permits ($$$$$$!), and such. It's not that simple. Now, if you buy from a dealer auction and roll in the over-head of being a dealer, you can feel free to compete in the $20016 challenge.

Driven5 wrote: Even if "inside deals" are interpreted mean any deal that is not advertised through a public medium as being for sale to the general public, the rules explicitly state that "inside deals" are fair & legal as long as they are budgeted at FMV. If the "inside deal" aspect didn't really save any money over potentially reasonable FMV, but merely provided availability, then there is no reason it doesn't also meet the "spirit" of the rule specifically allowing it. Do you also feel the same way about buying any build items at FMV (or being gifted and budgeting at FMV) direct from known parties?...Preferring instead to buy all build items at FMV exclusively advertised by strangers? This is no different.

I agree.

I don't think we are talking about FMV cars.

In fact, I don't think the VAST majority of Challenge cars are purchased initially at FMV.

FMV would make many of them significantly over budget.

Dean was pretty clear- he got a bargain. So did John, so did pimpn3. So did I- my Challenge car was purchased quite a bit under FMV.

I have no problem with bargains. The Challenge couldn't happen without them.

Since I just won a running driving ls400 for $860 after fees on copart similar mileage, age and condition I think he overpaid based on FMV.

In reply to SVreX:

Maybe in the next rule revision "fair market value" should be replaced by "bargain market value" ...Because as far as I can tell, that's not only what the Challenge pretty much exclusively consists of, but is in fact the very essence of what the challenge is about as well.

In reply to WillrunifChased:

Congratulations! Good score.

Thanks for proving my point (you didn't buy at FMV, you got a bargain).

Driven5 wrote: In reply to SVreX: Maybe next rule revision "fair market value" should be replaced by "bargain market value"...Because as far as I can tell, that's not only what the Challenge pretty much exclusively consists of, but is in fact the very essence of what the challenge is about as well.

I think people miss the point of FMV.

In a sense, I think it's supposed to be a bit of a penalty. Bargain shopping is part of what we are supposed to do- pulling something out of my garage is a shortcut that misses the opportunities created by bargain shopping. I try not to use FMV- I can do better.

SVreX wrote: In reply to WillrunifChased: Congratulations! Good score. Thanks for proving my point (you didn't buy at FMV, you got a bargain).

It was auction price open to the public. FMV simple as that.

Fair Market Value is not the same as getting a bargain.

It may have sold at an open venue, but you still got a bargain (or you wouldn't have bought it).

Do you think $860 is the going rate for an LS400? Nope? Not FMV.

Like I said, congrats.

Datsun1500 I thought CoPart was dealer or broker only.

Depends on state that the car is located.

WillrunifChased wrote: Since I just won a running driving ls400 for $860 after fees on copart similar mileage, age and condition I think he overpaid based on FMV.

Sweet!
I eagerly await a formal announcement.

I'll still push the idea...I would like to see someone bring a Lincoln Mark 8.
4.6L of Mustang Cobra-esque motor (near 300hp) in a big coupe.
Stock 1/4 mile in 15.2

Fair market value is impossible to determine on a non running vehicle. I don't even know why we are having a debate.

WillrunifChased wrote:

Datsun1500 I thought CoPart was dealer or broker only.

Depends on state that the car is located.

I'm fairly sure that Copart auctions in PA are unrestricted. Also, on Copart's site they have links to connect potential bidders to brokers, so they are actively encouraging the public to participate.

WillrunifChased wrote: Since I just won a running driving ls400 for $860 after fees on copart similar mileage, age and condition I think he overpaid based on FMV.

Pictures or it didn't happen...

WillrunifChased wrote: Fair market value is impossible to determine on a non running vehicle. I don't even know why we are having a debate.

You said your car was running and driving. We are not discussing FMV on non-running cars (although, it is still very easy to define, just as it is with fixer-upper houses, or any other tangible property).

It's a legal term, with a well understood meaning. No debate here.

SVreX wrote: The rules say "No inside deals".

If anyone can pay this guy $150 to get access to the auction, then I'd say it's not really an inside deal.

In reply to codrus:

I agree. Already said that.

Reading through the three pages of this thread really make me wish we could still have threads about politics or guns. This thread sorta sucks. So, I guess FMV depends on what is the definition of is is?

I agree my heads hurts

I think the take away is inside deals suck regardless of what form they take and you need to go by FMV in those situations. Thats why I started the other thread about determining fair market value for a broken car.

pimpm3 wrote: Pictures or it didn't happen...

I'd keep stirring this debate but it is going nowhere. Auctions are more of spot market value anyways. I was referring to the non running car that wold be impossible to assign a FMV to, since in a fair market you would probably be given time to diagnose an issue.

...of course it is beige. Have you picked it up yet? What is wrong with it? Awesome!

In reply to pimpm3:

Did they sell them in other colors??? Couple small dents scratches and chipping paint on the rear bumper. Needs some brake pads and the interior cleaned. Someone wasn't good at holding their hot chocolate. Suspension is a little on the soft side for a race car. AC works but the antenna does not, luckily it has a built in 6 disc changer... just need to find some CDs. Really disappointed it that heated seats were not standard. Probably will need to find 18" wheels to get any kind of sticky tire. Not sure what spring rates to go with yet, nobody seems to have any information on building LS400 race cars.

Other note: Suburban didn't seam to like towing this boat, may need to drive it to the event.

Looking forward to another beige luxo barge joining the fray. Look for a set of Mustang wheels. They are cheap and plentiful. I went with 17's, tires seem to be about $50 cheaper apiece compared to comparable 18' sizes. I went with RE-11's in a 245/45/17. They are on back order but should be in on the 4th... They better be at least I have an autocross on the 13th. This will be the first time I actually test a challenge car prior to the event.