Challenge Thoughts

I agree with everyone's sentiments on the tire rule, cast-off race tires are very common. I don't have anything to say on that subject that hasn't been said, and I agree that the tire rule should be left as-is.

I think fire extinguishers is a great idea.

The only issue I have with the Challenge as a whole is the subjectivity of the Concourse judging. From what I can tell, there's no rubric or list of objectives to do well in concourse. Is it about the creativity of the car itself, or just the presenting ability of the team? Which would garner a higher score, a really interesting build that had never been done before presented by a terrible public speaker, or a mostly-stock car presented with a custom song-and-dance routine? Twice now we've come to the Challenge and walked away with a poor Concourse scoring with no idea why and nothing constructive to build upon for the coming years. All I can gather so far is that bright colors get you a higher score.

Yeah, it's only 17% of the overall score, but from what we can tell, it's 17% of the score we don't understand or have any control over. Is it about presentation, build quality, build concepts, or the mood and tastes of the judges at the time? We spoke with some other teams about what we might be missing, and most people we spoke with seemed to agree that it's confusing and somewhat frustrating. In '09 we built a turbo Civic that we spent a lot of time on, appearance-wise, cleaning and detailing, and making the car overall spotless. It only got 17th place, and we attributed that to the boring-ness of a white, turbo Civic. Understandable. So this year, we tried to do something more interesting by putting a motor in a Miata that's never been there before. And we did worse. So, it appears at this point, that it's not about what you do, but more about how flashy you make the car and the song and dance you give the judges. But again, we've got so little to go off of, that's pure conjecture.

Please don't take this harshly, we've been incredibly happy with the Challenge as a whole. We're talking about potential changes to the Challenge, and that's the only one I'd make.

Maybe one set of tires should be free (not counted in the budget) in order to level the playing field?

To be honest, I loved the event the way it is and I would hate to see much change. I do think the fire extinguisher rule is a good one. Also the wheel bolt should probably be checked before the car runs. We found a BMW wheel bolt in the pits on Saturday. I am guessing it was off the E30 which lost a wheel. Also something about how the judging of the Concours is done would be nice.

We may also limit the expert drivers to 3 runs in any one car....

eastsidemav wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: Hmm. I didn't see any cars without headlights------I'll look through the pictures and see what you're talking about. The smaller windshields on open cars is because I opened up a can of worms by allowing windows to be replaced with lexan---and didn't clarify that this was back and side windows only.

I could just as easily be wrong - I took a bunch of pictures during downtime, and I'll take a look and see if I can find any examples, or if it was a figment of my imagination.

Dodge Aries, Triumph TR, apprear to have riveted headlights?

I don't see how anyone could possibly argue with the fire extinguisher. On tires- whats the current breakdown look like over the past couple challenges? Why the change? how bout a trophy for highest ST finisher (used both ax and drag)?

I know This has been discussed ad-naseum but what about a supplementary rally-x? Isn't there a big field next to the site? Something like a mini-course thats only worth 2-5 bonus pts. On the dynamic scale to reward vehicle flexibility. I know that adds a logarithmic level of complexity to organizing and staffing but maybe it would be do-able w/ the help of a local rally-x group like Martin helps w/ the ax.

Sorry, Per, I know this isn't what you asked for.

A big thumbs down for the fire extinguisher. We could never figure out what it was for on the Lemons car. Something like 95% of fires probably start in the engine compartment. You expect me to unclip it and myself from the car whilst pulling over to the grass, get out and then go under the hood to put it out? No way dude, not when the car's basically worth nothing and there's a firetruck about 1/8th mile away. It can wait. The challenge is even less needful, assuming NHRA has the safety safari on site. The dragstrip has lots of room to pull over and get out and the autocross speeds are so low that it shouldn't be much harder. Once you're out, who really cares about the car?

Some of you may take this as callous against those who have to actually fight the fire while the driver bails, and I understand that, but just beware that opening the hood gives whatever fire there is a big gulp of O2, a move that is best left to the experts in appropriate gear.

While generally making sugestions I'd like to see any car built to an SCCA recognized class allowed to run for the overall victory (yes this would mean tube framed cars are allowed to play too). The whole premise the challenge is that you can build a RACE car for <$20XX. What's more race car than a car built to run in a nationally recognized racing class? I'm cool with saying anything Above Bmod (to eliminate cars that are not "production based") and further more saying these cars have to MEET the rules of their class so no building a Dmod car and then straping Amod wings to it, or If you build a XP car you can't put a Sucker fan on it. Kind of a Pick your poison idea. You can Either run meeting the Challenge rules which allow things things that the SCCA wouldn't or you can Build a SCCA class car that mut be Legal to run in it's class, No Amod or Bmod cars.

wait, you're considering making changes to the Challenge???? you're actually throwing a couple ideas out there for consideration? you can't be serious. oh wait you are serious.

Bonus points for street legal cars and bonus points for ingenuity. I have seen many challenge cars without working wipers and horns as r equired in rules

I see the point about being built to a class, but what about those who race with other clubs? The Martin Sports Car Club, our other local group, has several Street Mod classes that allow just about anything. Personally, I like to see the creativity and would rather not pigeon-hole the participants.

I do like the suggestion about a penalty for those who pitch a wheel. That could get very, very ugly. How about if you lose a wheel you're disqualified? That would probably get more people torquing lug nuts between runs.

Parade laps of auto x for competitors

aussiesmg wrote: Bonus points for street legal cars and bonus points for ingenuity. I have seen many challenge cars without working wipers and horns as r equired in rules

You know, the presence of street equipment could be checked before concours judging. And if the equipment is missing, either they get dinged or better do a great job of pleading their case. Just a thought.

tuna55 wrote: A big thumbs down for the fire extinguisher. We could never figure out what it was for on the Lemons car.

One thing the fire bottle rule does is scatter a bunch of extinguishers throughout the pits and paddock. Should someone have a problem, in theory help is just a few feet away.

nocones: Basically, it sounds like you want a tube frame rule to allow some DM and EM cars, right? Because you still just want it to be production based? Not sure how that helps us--as many of the challenge cars are XP, DM or EM legal.

As far as I know, we don't have any good rallycross sites within the gainesville/surrounding area. While ERS is cool, it's not a true rallycross site, as it's considerably faster than an SCCA event. Further--that's not really the direction we've gone with the event.

As for concours scoring--Maybe we have a big easel/dry erase board next year where the challenge scores can be written on and you can compare where you're at with others. The rule being that you can't change the score, but you can ask the judges right there why the car was scored a certain way.

I'd be curious to know how the concours judging goes down, for sure. I'm prepping a car for 2012, and the more of rules I know to work with, the better off I am.

westsidetalon wrote:

eastsidemav wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: Hmm. I didn't see any cars without headlights------I'll look through the pictures and see what you're talking about. The smaller windshields on open cars is because I opened up a can of worms by allowing windows to be replaced with lexan---and didn't clarify that this was back and side windows only.

I could just as easily be wrong - I took a bunch of pictures during downtime, and I'll take a look and see if I can find any examples, or if it was a figment of my imagination.

Dodge Aries, Triumph TR, apprear to have riveted headlights?

Not the Aries. The passenger side HL had a simple cover on it with the stock working headlight behind it. The drivers HL was wired and functioning, but I was using the HL bucket for an air intake. If someone wanted to see the headlights, it would have taken me 30 seconds to show them....or our working horn, parking lights, windshield wipers, directionals, stock dash, etc...

Karl--read the rules again--

We're asking for headlights, brake lights, windshields, horn, battery tiedowns, ....

Per Schroeder wrote: We may also limit the expert drivers to 3 runs in any one car....

What is the situation if a pro driver cones every run?

MrJoshua wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: We may also limit the expert drivers to 3 runs in any one car....

What is the situation if a pro driver cones every run?

I would think same as it is now....then they get a cone penalty for every run.

Per Schroeder wrote: Karl--read the rules again-- We're asking for headlights, brake lights, windshields, horn, battery tiedowns, ....

I wasn't complaining but in 09 the S10 had a lot its ideas in making this stuff, for naught, or so it felt.

How about a Street-tire class and a race tire class?

Sort of like the cave-man or under $1000 classes?

That way the folks that bring "street cars" can be compared against other street cars.

I'm pretty sure I remember someone explaining that the headlights and major body parts have to be on the car. Not necessarily in their original location. I also remember a couple of interesting rule interpretations of that. (headlights strapped into the trunk, etc.)

David S. Wallens wrote:

tuna55 wrote: A big thumbs down for the fire extinguisher. We could never figure out what it was for on the Lemons car.

One thing the fire bottle rule does is scatter a bunch of extinguishers throughout the pits and paddock. Should someone have a problem, in theory help is just a few feet away.

That is a good point.

Lower the concourse percentage, turn it into more of a "show and tell," or maybe come up with an itemized ratings system for it (unless there is one I missed).

tuna55 wrote:

David S. Wallens wrote:

tuna55 wrote: A big thumbs down for the fire extinguisher. We could never figure out what it was for on the Lemons car.

One thing the fire bottle rule does is scatter a bunch of extinguishers throughout the pits and paddock. Should someone have a problem, in theory help is just a few feet away.

That is a good point.

Yep, hand held fire extinguishers in race cars were never for your car, always for other drivers/cars (think of Jacky Ickx and Nurburgring, etc) The idea was to subdue the fire enough to get the driver to safety or at least keep things under control until a safety crew arrived to finish the job.

Built-in fire extinguisher systems are for controlling the fire so the driver can get out. If you're lucky, you may even save the car, but the soft, fleshy bit in the middle is the important piece to save.