Challenge to the 2009 Challengers

plance1 wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: I think you guys have a handle on what we're not going to reintroduce the claim rule.

??? Don't get hung up on the idea of claim rule, maybe just consider introducing some kind of economic factor into your evaluation criteria. To do otherwise means you are just burying your head in the sand and ignoring the total value and/or cost of the vehicles that show up for your contest. If some guy who is struggling to pay his bills and support his family thinks that his time is not worth anything, like the guy who said his labor is free, then he will never get it and instead will most likely spend 364 days a year working on his next challenge car instead of getting a part-time job. But for the rest of us who value our own time and considering that the value of our time differs, why not let society decide what our cars our worth? Is it because some folks would be embarrassed that they spent 10,000 hours of so called free labor on a car that is only worth 5 grand?

Wow, you are clueless dude.

This is not for money, it is for magazine fodder and to see what you as a human being (or a group of human beings) can do with a set amount of money. Basically it is about building a car with your friends/family and taking it someplace to compare it to other people's entries. In between comparisons, you drink heavily and poke the vein in Per's head, when you're not fixing something broken.

Did you ever compete in coke bottle, pinewood derby or similar events as a child? As a child did you and your friends build stuff with crap you found/scrounged for? I did that with bicycle's, ended up with a 12-speed BMX bike, went like hell but was scary to ride. This is a similar style event, only instead of a Merit badge and the possibility of a trophy, you get to have your car in a magazine with the possibility of a trophy after you spend the weekend hanging out with a lot of great people.

If you as a human being with responsibilities (we all have responsibilities, some more than others), choose to build a Challenge car instead of finding a job (part time or not) then your priorities are severely screwed up and you won't succeed as a human being in our society for very long.

Really, that IS the whole point. We're trying to prove that VALUE does not have to equal MONEY. We like it that way. We would rather see ingenuity in the garage rather than in the 'deal' for the car.

plance1 wrote: ??? Don't get hung up on the idea of claim rule, maybe just consider introducing some kind of economic factor into your evaluation criteria. To do otherwise means you are just burying your head in the sand and ignoring the total value and/or cost of the vehicles that show up for your contest.

I have spent 30 hrs on my engine bay Alone (on the new car). It costs me $650 in Gas last year and drove 26 hrs straight from Canada to Fla. The round trip incl. Hotel, booze, gas , food, and antics will probably cost $1500+ this year. I even have 2 team members who can't make the drive due to families , so we are chipping in to fly them down

if you think someone is gonna buy my car for $2009 you are out of your mind. Now off the table if someone wanted to trade cars at the event..I would consider that.

I have an idea for a rule... no proposing rules without having been to the event once.

I never realized the quality of the cars and how much of themselves these people put into the cars until I went.

Until you go....you just don't know... This is an experience that can't be fiscally measured....Pretty positive words coming from the guy who finished 50th!

As for labor costs, pretty hard to calculate. 1 hr of myself working is not exaclty the same "Value" as 1 hour of my friend Dan who is a master certified tech.

I even took 2 days off this week to work on the GRM car

Claim Rule?? Not that old gag......

So Aarons Karmann Ghia with labor charged at $20 an hour would be worth $3600 just for the 180 hours it took him to strip the gold spray paint from the car to show the original paints patina? Would he get a labor discount because he was only 15 when he did the work?

The idea in the begining was simple, "If you guys only had $1500 to spend to build a race car what would you build?" Is that close Tim? In my mind a wallet full of cob webs and busted knuckles is DEAD ON the spirit of the event .

No matter how hard we try, some people will never get it.

Sean

plance1 wrote: ...ignoring the total value and/or cost of the vehicles that show up for your contest.

Duh, total or final value has little to do with this contest. It's about how you get to that end result. This contest is about seeing exactly what you can build with a total outlay of x amount of dollars, some ingenuity, some spare time, and some elbow grease. It's really more of a personal challenge than anything. Most of the people that compete could really care less if they win or loose.

plance1 wrote: If some guy who is struggling to pay his bills and support his family thinks that his time is not worth anything, like the guy who said his labor is free, then he will never get it...

You sir, are obviously the one that doesn't get it. I fully understand that time is money. I work for a living, I own a house, I pay my bills. But let me ask you, do you work all of your waking hours? What do you do for fun? Guess what, some people like to work on cars for fun. Next time I go to an autocross, should I demand the SCCA pay me for driving around their course and picking up cones for 6 or 7 hours? I mean, my time is worth at least $15 an hour right?

plance1 wrote: ...and instead will most likely spend 364 days a year working on his next challenge car instead of getting a part-time job.

Nope. I've got one job, and that's enough. I don't get paid a lot, but I live within my means. And I haven't touched my Challenge car since I've come back from Florida.

plance1 wrote: But for the rest of us who value our own time and considering that the value of our time differs, why not let society decide what our cars our worth?

Trust me, I value my time more than most people I know. I go weeks without turning on the TV, because for the most part I don't have time to sit and do nothing. But like I said earlier, I also go out and play pool once a week. That's one of the things I do for fun. Another thing I do for fun is work on my projects, whether it's a car, house, motorcycle, etc. The challenge is not a job, so don't try to make it one.

plance1 wrote: Is it because some folks would be embarrassed that they spent 10,000 hours of so called free labor on a car that is only worth 5 grand?

Nope. Not at all. To use an example I've used before, I go out and play pool on a league every Wednesday night. I spend $8 and about 4 hours of my time to play (we won't count the beer money, once again, tools don't count on the budget). At the end of the year, there's a regional tournament and 1st and 2nd place wins a trip to Vegas to compete in the National tournament. Yearly APA dues are $25. So am I embarrassed that I've $441 and 208 hours of my time every year playing pool? No, because it's fun. So if you're building a challenge car for fun, why would the time spent embarrass you? You're a weird dude.

So if we started considering labor, does that mean that all the Guido entries, the Nelson entries, and Aaron's Ghia will be disqualified for breaking child labor laws?

Personally....regardless of time, i doubt i would sell any challenge car i would build for $2009.

Put it this way. I have almost NO fabrication skills. My mechanic skills are basic at best. I would pick some sort of FWD Celica to challenge, because that's what i know best. I know how to squeeze power out of them, i know how to make them handle, and i know how to drive them. (Kinda)

Soo.... $1000 beater, plus suspension and some free or near free power mods, and a bottle. Some elbow grease/backyard body work, and i'd be left with a pretty capable car with pretty minimal time actually invested.

As i've found, the whole of said car/parts is usually worth more than the sum of the car/parts. Why would i want to sell a car that with the way it would run and look would normally sell for more like $3500 for $2009?

And that's assuming my time is worth nothing. (Which it really isn't.)

And that's just an example using a crappy celica. Start with a more desirable car, get a little more involved in it, and even without time, it gets to be an even bigger discrepancy (as evidenced by the Cheapparral Vette.)

Im not going to try to change any minds, it appears even the editor is locked into his position and Im not going to respond to guys saying "your clueless, etc," I'll take the high road instead. To each his own and if you can't build a car and figure out the economics (or ignore the economics completely) of what you are doing while building it then you deserve to be stuck with the car when you are done.

Why not consider being more open minded instead of jumping on the bandwagon? Sure everyone hates rules, especially creative people, but why are most racing organizations adopting more and more budget limits? Are they wrong to do so? Yes, many of you would say, because it limits creativity but it is the right approach in today's economy.

Again, if you were truely creative, you could find a way to work within ANY constraint, including a real world budget that factors in TOTAL cost and/or value. I see that creativity lacking in some of the more rude responses to my original post. And again, it doesn't have to be the standard claim rule, it could just be a factor, even if it was subjective, in the evaluations, ie, how much is this car worth when it is all said and done vs. time spent working on it?

plance1 wrote: Im not going to try to change any minds, it appears even the editor is locked into his position and Im not going to respond to guys saying "your clueless, etc," I'll take the high road instead. To each his own and if you can't build a car and figure out the economics (or ignore the economics completely) of what you are doing while building it then you deserve to be stuck with the car when you are done. Why not consider being more open minded instead of jumping on the bandwagon? Sure everyone hates rules, especially creative people, but why are most racing organizations adopting more and more budget limits? Are they wrong to do so? Yes, many of you would say, because it limits creativity but it is the right approach in today's economy. Again, if you were truely creative, you could find a way to work within ANY constraint, including a real world budget that factors in TOTAL cost and/or value. I see that creativity lacking in some of the more rude responses to my original post. And again, it doesn't have to be the standard claim rule, it could just be a factor, even if it was subjective, in the evaluations, ie, how much is this car worth when it is all said and done vs. time spent working on it?

I'm all for the "Let's assign a real world value to this car" aspect....

But what purpose would it serve in the challenge besides a nifty "Oh hey i turned $2009 worth of crap into $20k!"

If you turn that assigned final value into a handicap of sorts, you're going to have people running Geo Metro 3-speeds with WELDED on heads and hugh amounts of nitrous for a $300 total investment winning the challenge despite being slow.

93celicaGT2 wrote: If you turn that assigned final value into a handicap of sorts, you're going to have people running Geo Metro 3-speeds with WELDED on heads and hugh amounts of nitrous for a $300 total investment winning the challenge despite being slow.

Thanks for at least considering what I was saying. Isn't the bottomline to go fast as cheaply as possible? Sure there are fringe benefits, such as friendship, male bonding, father and son projects, fun factor, entertainment but in the end, speed is the criteria in all but the appearance category, correct? So how fast can you go for x dollars with x dollars defined by GRM?

Maybe there should be two classes that race together, those that have unlimited "creativity" and those who will submit to letting economics enter into the criteria.

plance1 wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: If you turn that assigned final value into a handicap of sorts, you're going to have people running Geo Metro 3-speeds with WELDED on heads and hugh amounts of nitrous for a $300 total investment winning the challenge despite being slow.

Thanks for at least considering what I was saying. Isn't the bottomline to go fast as cheaply as possible? Sure there are fringe benefits, such as friendship, male bonding, father and son projects, fun factor, entertainment but in the end, speed is the criteria in all but the appearance category, correct? So how fast can you go for x dollars with x dollars defined by GRM? Maybe there should be two classes that race together, those that have unlimited "creativity" and those who will submit to letting economics enter into the criteria.

The main problems with that are:

1) I don't think there would really be enough people in the "economic" class. Everyone is set on what they want to do, and it's worked great so far. The people that are dead seat on economic events race in Lemons and BABE.

2) Calling it un-economical to work on a race car in all of your spare time would have to be based on the fact that you're somehow losing money during that spare time. Sure, you could get a second (or third) job instead of working on the car, but why? As was said before in this thread, people probably don't enter this challenge if they aren't at least decently off, economically. Economics has nothing to do with wrenching on a hunk of crap trying to turn it into a diamond during time that you have free. It's called "free time" for a reason. You're not at work.

The thing is, GRM has already defined "X Dollars" as $year. As in... money. Monetary value, only. Because that's all dollars are.... money. The old adage "Time is Money" doesn't apply to this challenge, that's how they've defined it, and it seems to work just fine.

Yeah, because of it, someone like me is never going to win the challenge unless I spend 5 years nickel and dime-ing trying to find the best possible deals at the best possible time and blah blah blah, but i haven't seen ANYONE complain about it.

plance1,

After reading this entire thread, I'm still having a hard time understanding your arguement. To add a claim rule or any kind would really change the essence of what the competition has become, regardless of whether or not that was the original intent.

Some day I hope to build a Challenge car and participate... I don't have much hope of winning as I know I don't have some of the resources of some of the teams... in my case, my "team" would likely consist of "Me, Myself, and I" with occasional help from a few car buddies. But at the same time, I really hope to get into auto-x and such in a near future... so maybe the pool of help I would have to draw on could change...

The simple fact is some teams will have an advantage... either in choice of cars (here in the northeast, just finding a cheap, relatively rust-free base car can be tough), tools, work space or most importantly - experience. To attempt to come up with some sort of formula to equalize that would be impossible.

If you'll notice a common theme here, many of the participants have built more than one car and/or have been doing this for a number of years. They build a car. Race it. Go home... and after seeing what others have done, think of ways to improve... sometimes reworking their current car... sometimes simply starting over... some guys run the same car every year... making tuning improvements and honing their driving experience in the car. For some of the guys, the build alone seems to be their main goal, with the racing results being a far second and take pride in bringing a new car to the event.

I have an idea for a rule... no proposing rules without having been to the event once.

WIN.

That being said, I would've sold the A-hole car, the General, or the Boss Hong (pre-destruction, of course,) for less than $2k. You'd have to ask Wayne whether or not he'd sell the s00p3rturd for $2k. I'm guessing he'd say something to the effect of "Do you have any idea how much time I spent detailing that engine bay, you berkeleying dumb berkeley?" Combine this with the fact that that car is now the prettiest berkeleying thing he owns, and there's your answer.

I stood, sledge-hammer in hand, and asked anyone at the concours tent if they wanted the car before we destroyed it. Bidding started at one dollar. Nobody bid...yet later that night, and even months later, everyone and their berkeleying brother started in with the "Dude, you guys shouldn't have wrecked that car, I totally would've bought it."

My point? The world is full of "I was gonna's" (my 7 year old niece says this a lot.)

I'm a struggling business owner. Wayne manages a trailer park. We live an hour and a half away from each other, and we both feel very fortunate to have a 2-car garage. The Challenge car is "mine" this year. This means that the car stays at my house (that was a fun conversation with the wife,) and I'm responsible for all of the cost.

I'm berkeleying struggling HARD right now financially, so I'm desperately trying to keep our total budget @ less than $500 all in, and still hope to build a winner. This isn't to prove some kind of berkeleying point. I'm working with the budget I've got. Even $500 is going to be a stretch once the gas, hotel, and entry are accounted for. Fortunately, I've got 3 INCREDIBLE friends who have already blown 2 weekends busting their asses to get the ball rolling, putting their own numerous projects aside, to make this the earliest we've ever had some real progress on a Challenger.

I work on the car an average of 1 hour per night. That's roughly 180 hours of labor if I can keep it up. If you can't afford 1 hour/night, good for you. You have a productive and fulfilling life. So why the berkeley are you trolling on message boards?

If GRM changes the rules tomorrow, we'll still be there, as long as we're invited. If we get booted from our house tomorrow, and are forced to move into a E36 M3-hole apartment, we'll still be there (I've wrenched in parking lots more than twice.) And if my 300,000 mile daily driver 91 Integra kicks it tomorrow, I'll still find a way to bring something down. BTW, I've probably got a total investment of $5,000 worth of strictly replacement parts and maintenance in this thousand dollar, 300,000 mile piece of E36 M3, not including hundreds of hours of labor, but I'll sell it to YOU, TODAY, for the LOW LOW price of $2009.

Keep finding excuses not to play. More free beer for me.

/rant over.

I wish someone was close to me so i could build something this year. But i'd need to have someone split the costs with me.

Might bring the deathscort just to see how well a stock car does.

Someone may have made this point already but our challenge car has turned my dad on to autocrossing. Something I've been trying to get him to do since I was 15 and went through a couple of Evo schools. Building the car, it gave us a dedicated racer that we could take to the drags as well as an autox or a track day. Just build a car dude and come to the event and you'll see what it's all about.

93celicaGT2 wrote: I wish someone was close to me so i could build something this year. But i'd need to have someone split the costs with me. Might bring the deathscort just to see how well a stock car does.

That is the point though. Bring what you can when you can. I have been sitting out for YEARS since the last event I attended (6 to be exact) and all I needed to do was drive down and have fun. Hell two years I paid entries and didn't show up!

The only person that is going to get the car done is YOU, just find something fun and run it.

plance1 wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: I think you guys have a handle on what we're not going to reintroduce the claim rule.

??? Don't get hung up on the idea of claim rule, maybe just consider introducing some kind of economic factor into your evaluation criteria. To do otherwise means you are just burying your head in the sand and ignoring the total value and/or cost of the vehicles that show up for your contest. If some guy who is struggling to pay his bills and support his family thinks that his time is not worth anything, like the guy who said his labor is free, then he will never get it and instead will most likely spend 364 days a year working on his next challenge car instead of getting a part-time job. But for the rest of us who value our own time and considering that the value of our time differs, why not let society decide what our cars our worth? Is it because some folks would be embarrassed that they spent 10,000 hours of so called free labor on a car that is only worth 5 grand?

I really have a tough time understanding your real point. And I'm not kidding.

You claim that in these hard times, we need to factor in some kind of value to our spare time. When the point of this exercise is to actually show that you can add value, in terms of looks and performance- since that is what is VALUED in the challenge, by hard work and creativity.

The added bonus is that most often, not only do you get value in performance and looks, you end up getting economic value as well, since the selling price is normally more than the sum of the $$ spent. Then said owner gets to decide either 1) their time is too valuable to do this again, or 2) you can make some serious $$ quickly and easily. And it very much depends on who did what.

ESPECIALLY now, with tough times, while you can't find a job, this is a great way to spend time making money. Again, it has to be secondary to finding a job, but if you have the time and desire to do this, then so be it. The reality is that this isn't really different than flipping any car or house- you work, invest time, make money.

BTW, I also think you discount the pure enjoyment part of the equation. Since I enjoy working on cars, can I discount my rate since people PAY to be entertained? Heck, I pay $50 to personally sit through a 2 hour concert to be entertained- I think I should get $25/hr credit since the work is entertaining.

Anyway, hard work and creativity adds value to a product. That's the point of this. I don't see how you level the 1) desire to work and 2) the enjoyment of work for all players. Or does it not seem reasonable that peope would rather work on cars than read a book (you pay for that), watch TV (you pay for that), got to movies (you pay for that), or eat out (and you pay for that)?

I will honestly admit that my enjoyment level has dropped in past years, which in one reason I've not gone back. But that's my prolblem. Not any of the other competitors.

Eric

93celicaGT2 wrote: Might bring the deathscort just to see how well a stock car does.

I've said it before: "Next time I'm buying a $1900 car, a can of wax and a 12 pack."

It's the game, the comaraderie, not the trophy. You'll DeathScort yourself back to Indiana smiling the whole way.

Just Do It.

^You're probably right.... and there's still enough budget to put some stupid brakes and ridiculous tires on it.

Just gotta convince the GF to come now, as she has claimed it as "her" car.

914Driver wrote: I've said it before: "Next time I'm buying a $1900 car, a can of wax and a 12 pack."

What are you going to drink on Friday and Saturday?

Per Schroeder wrote:

914Driver wrote: I've said it before: "Next time I'm buying a $1900 car, a can of wax and a 12 pack."

What are you going to drink on Friday and Saturday?

Is there REALLY that much drinking? This is sounding like more and more fun the more i hear about it.

Basically... it's a party with gearheads, cars ranging from gross to awesome to just plain WTF?!?! with some racing?

I was mostly kidding. It's a fun family-friendly motorsports event with some late night celebration thrown in, not the other way around.

As long as the late night celebration does not disappoint, i will be happy.

poopshovel wrote:

I have an idea for a rule... no proposing rules without having been to the event once.

WIN. That being said, I would've sold the A-hole car, the General, or the Boss Hong (pre-destruction, of course,) for less than $2k. You'd have to ask Wayne whether or not he'd sell the s00p3rturd for $2k. I'm guessing he'd say something to the effect of "Do you have any idea how much time I spent detailing that engine bay, you berkeleying dumb berkeley?" Combine this with the fact that that car is now the prettiest berkeleying thing he owns, and there's your answer. I stood, sledge-hammer in hand, and asked anyone at the concours tent if they wanted the car before we destroyed it. Bidding started at one dollar. Nobody bid...yet later that night, and even months later, everyone and their berkeleying brother started in with the "Dude, you guys shouldn't have wrecked that car, I totally would've bought it." My point? The world is full of "I was gonna's" (my 7 year old niece says this a lot.) I'm a struggling business owner. Wayne manages a trailer park. We live an hour and a half away from each other, and we both feel very fortunate to have a 2-car garage. The Challenge car is "mine" this year. This means that the car stays at my house (that was a fun conversation with the wife,) and I'm responsible for all of the cost. I'm berkeleying struggling HARD right now financially, so I'm desperately trying to keep our total budget @ less than $500 all in, and still hope to build a winner. This isn't to prove some kind of berkeleying point. I'm working with the budget I've got. Even $500 is going to be a stretch once the gas, hotel, and entry are accounted for. Fortunately, I've got 3 INCREDIBLE friends who have already blown 2 weekends busting their asses to get the ball rolling, putting their own numerous projects aside, to make this the earliest we've ever had some real progress on a Challenger. I work on the car an average of 1 hour per night. That's roughly 180 hours of labor if I can keep it up. If you can't afford 1 hour/night, good for you. You have a productive and fulfilling life. So why the berkeley are you trolling on message boards? If GRM changes the rules tomorrow, we'll still be there, as long as we're invited. If we get booted from our house tomorrow, and are forced to move into a E36 M3-hole apartment, we'll still be there (I've wrenched in parking lots more than twice.) And if my 300,000 mile daily driver 91 Integra kicks it tomorrow, I'll still find a way to bring something down. BTW, I've probably got a total investment of $5,000 worth of strictly replacement parts and maintenance in this thousand dollar, 300,000 mile piece of E36 M3, not including hundreds of hours of labor, but I'll sell it to YOU, TODAY, for the LOW LOW price of $2009. Keep finding excuses not to play. More free beer for me. /rant over.

Your rant makes me want to berkeley.

The point of the Challenge is to spend $200x and HOWEVER MUCH OF YOUR OWN LABOR YOU WANT TO to create the best car. That is all. We all know that. Nobody has their heads in the sand.

And as others have said, the other point of the Challenge is to have a good time.

SVreX wrote: On second though, plance1... ...I'm not sure you are going to "get it".

He has that history... I vividly recall the Toyota Echo "debate" on the old board, where he also refused to get it. Even more ridiculous than this thread, if I recall correctly.