ChumpCar/LeMon Budgeting, How and Hell are you guys getting it DONE!?!

"Welding is welding?" no professional welder would ever say that. A stick welded cage would be exceedingly unlikely to pass tech in any racing series that actually has tech inspectors that know what they're looking at. Sure on a schedule40 gas pipe cage made for the local 1/3 mile oval they're gonna glance at it and say "looks good" but try getting on Road America with a cage like that and you'll be ripping it all out.

You don't need "forgiving." You need good. If you need a forgiving welding technique then you're not good enough to be welding cages.

In reply to dculberson:

On this thread tanget, you do know that that ships are stick welded together?

And that oil rig welding underwater is stick welding, too?

Right rod, right technique, a good stick >> marginal MIG or TIG.

Welding is welding.

(I think you see crappy stick welding as what it is, as opposed to the stick welding that puts together multi thousand ton parts of ships together.)

Sure, stick welding is perfectly strong done right. But it's not really appropriate for a roll cage, and in fact many series (ie NHRA, etc) specify mig or tig welded cages. A stick welded cage would never pass tech at an NHRA event because of the rules..

I think it's because stick welding is so easily done (with poor results) where MIG and especially TIG are impossible to accomplish without at least a little bit of understanding of what's going on.

Wow, $1100 for a full cage? I spent more than twice that for my rollbar. I wouldn't get in a car with a $1100 welded rollcage, anyone undervaluing their time like that probably doesn't know what the F they're doing.

I also wouldn't get in a car with a rollcage made by one of my team members unless that's what he does as his main profession.

You guys are very cavalier about this and given enough time it's going to bite you in the ass in a bad way. Nothing will save your life more than a well made cage and there's a lot more to that then just some tubing and the ability to weld.

I also wouldn't dream of running without a HANS. I also wouldn't loan my HANS out to anyone. I don't loan any of my safety gear. It's mine, for me. Go buy your own and don't F up mine.

These cheap car race series have caught my interest some, but I have no desire to be on the track with these huge fields of cars built that are mostly thrown together driven by people with vast differences in track experience.

docwyte wrote: Wow, $1100 for a full cage? I spent more than twice that for my rollbar. I wouldn't get in a car with a $1100 welded rollcage, anyone undervaluing their time like that probably doesn't know what the F they're doing.

I've been over the cage several times, it's good. Very good. Way better than what we cobbled together for the Amazon.

As far as the HANS, you seem a little weird about that - not sharing? Whatever dude, don't go then. We'll race without you.

One of the team members said it best:

"They can say we didn't race well, but that can't say we didn't race"

if not using a HANS device is foolishly risking my life and limb, then there are decades and decades of professional racers who have done it and even now, lots of very fast race cars don't require them. I get it, I want one, but it's not a necessity. We're going friggin 100 mph maybe. People are in far greater danger driving to work every day. People driving to work on a motorcycle may as well take a cyanide pill before they leave, right?

I am sorry but someone who is a good welder and has access to a mandrel bender should be able to do a roll cage no problem.

Yeah, lots of racers in the '60's raced without harnesses and leather helmets too. When you actually talk to them (I met and talked with David Hobbs about this last weekend, very nice guy btw) he basically said they were all incredibly worried about safety every race because they had all friends die during races. He feels that if Jackie Stewart hadn't forced the issues, the FIA and race track owners never would've done anything to increase safety.

Just because you don't have to do it, or people haven't done it in the past doesn't make it a wise decision to not do it now.

I am a little weird about loaning out my personal safety gear because it's meant to save my life. I don't want someone else boogering it up. I want to make sure I have it when I need it. Based on how many times I've had to chase people down to return something they've "forgotten" to return to me I'd rather not bother. I also don't want someone stinking up my helmet, suit, etc. I may be a little OCD about personal hygiene, but that's my choice.

So you think driving to work is more dangerous than being on the race track with a bunch of novices, in crappy cars going 100mph?

Everyone makes decisions based on their personal comfort level. If you're willing to take the risks, go for it! Nothing wrong with that, or my decision to surround myself with the best safety equipment I can.

not to further hijack, but 1100 for a rollbar?! was it a gold plated bar?

Custom built, welded, included taking apart the car and reassembly, plus papering the car to make sure it didn't get damaged.

You can buy a Kirk rollbar for far less, but it won't be mounted into structural steel and won't fit nearly as well.

Doorman-

I was right where you were not long ago-I even bought back an improved touring car I sold 20 years ago with the thought of racing it again.

The thing of it was, the reasons I sold the car 20 years ago were still there: The expenses of a trailer and towing, the money to get the old car to pass NASA or SCCA tech (new seats, upgrade the cage, belts, suit, etc),one or two races a season close by and a long haul to other tracks, hotel rooms, dedicating three days for every race, etc. I like to Auto X, but it was wheel-to-wheel racing I wanted.

I too looked at Lemons and Chump racing.

Then I went to a kart track...

I cannot think of another racing venue that gives you as much actual seat time on a race track for your dollar than karting. If you have a kart track near you (a sprint/road-racing track) they likely have rental karts. Give them a try. There is a reason I saw a former Daytona 500 winner at the kart track a few months ago and that some NASCAR guys are sinking a ton of money into another track close by. IT IS FUN and you can be competitive on a local level without selling your firstborn.

One more thing-at most kart tracks you can pay a flat fee ($40 at my track) and run your kart on their track ALL DAY! Test and tune, get laps in, break-in an engine, whatever.

I'd wager if you start with used equipment you can get started for as much if not cheaper than a "crap-can" racer, it will be all yours, and you will get hours of racing time.

For those who say "Its not a car", they're right, and I don't have time to care. I'm too busy racing.

docwyte wrote: So you think driving to work is more dangerous than being on the race track with a bunch of novices, in crappy cars going 100mph?

Driving there on the freeway next to a bunch of novices in crappy cars doing 80 with no safety gear does seem a little dumb now that you mention it...

Hmm, maybe you need to move Javelin! My work commute doesn't have me surrounded by a bunch of $500 crap cans.

Granted the average American driver is clueless, but the freeway is a very different environment than a track...

docwyte wrote: Hmm, maybe you need to move Javelin! My work commute doesn't have me surrounded by a bunch of $500 crap cans. Granted the average American driver is clueless, but the freeway is a very different environment than a track...

Yes, the average American highway, in my opinion, is several power of ten more dangerous than any race track. On a racetrack, nobody is using their cell phone, nobody is eating, everyone is going the same direction, nobody is adjusting the radio or yelling at kids, falling asleep etc. Everyone is there to drive. I could quote statistics, but it would be hard to separate the safety gear out.

docwyte wrote: Custom built, welded, included taking apart the car and reassembly, plus papering the car to make sure it didn't get damaged. You can buy a Kirk rollbar for far less, but it won't be mounted into structural steel and won't fit nearly as well.

Yeah. Our car is always apart, there isn't any paint to protect, and it was mounted to a frame. Pretty easy slam dunk stuff.

docwyte wrote: Hmm, maybe you need to move Javelin! My work commute doesn't have me surrounded by a bunch of $500 crap cans. Granted the average American driver is clueless, but the freeway is a very different environment than a track...

Have you seen the average American's car? It usually has four bald mis-matched under-inflated tires, with two blown shocks, a check engine light that's been on for a year, 14Lbs of trash inside, with a "service history" consisting of a handful of Wally World oil changes over the last 6 years...

tuna55 wrote: As far as the HANS, you seem a little weird about that - not sharing?

This is actually a VERY big deal. You don't know what has happened to your equipment if you share it. Did your helmet get dropped? Maybe it was bumped pretty hard but the borrower didn't notice?

We're actually cracking down on equipment sharing in Canadian rallying (I kid you not) as it is a very serious issue.

Once again, you can not buy proper cage material for under $500, no way, no how. I also disagree with you Mike, no racing I participate in will allow a cage to be stick welded and there is a reason for that!

So yes, if you cut every possible corner, especially on safety equipment (the stuff that is meant to save your life), you can get out there extremely cheap. But damn, that is scary. I'm the dumbest risk taker I know out of any of my friends and acquaintances, but I know where to draw the line. Did you know neck braces are known to AGGRAVATE head and neck injuries in an accident? They are a joke, and also a scary one at that. Yep, a HANS is expensive, but it's a one time expense that will follow you into any racing you participate in, money well spent.

I wouldn't get in a car with a $1100 welded rollcage, anyone undervaluing their time like that probably doesn't know what the F they're doing.

Good thing no one's inviting you to drive!

I too am of the opinion that driving to work is more dangerous than LeMons/Chump. As Angus Young said, "At least we're all going the same berkeleying direction!"

The only time you're going 100mph at one of these events (at least the several I've been to) is in a straight line, into a straight braking zone. If you figure out a way to berkeley that up, you probably shouldn't be out there, and the organizers are going to recognize that and yank your ass out of the car.

Either way, it's racing. There is some inherent risk. I understand, appreciate, and go the distance to limit risk of brains spilling or catching on fire, but to say "You didn't throw enough money at it, so obviously it's not good" is berkeleying retarded.

We had some trial and error with both of our cages, but everybody who was driving had a hand in it, and was encouraged to speak up if there was something they were uncomfortable with. I challenge and encourage someone to pick out flaws, and no, it did not cost 4 figures.

poopshovel wrote: Either way, it's racing. There is some inherent risk. I understand, appreciate, and go the distance to limit risk of brains spilling or catching on fire, but to say "You didn't throw enough money at it, so obviously it's not good" is berkeleying retarded.

you = smart.

I also wanted to add that there is a certain magazine where race cars are built and raced for around $2,000. Some of these cars have roll cages included IN THE BUDGET. I know what you're saying, it's safer to run an unsafe car at that venue because they can't hit anyone else, right? Yeah. I'll bet.

I'll also bet that you drive a Volvo SUV with lane change notification, drowsiness checker, night vision, onstar, stability control, tire pressure monitoring, adaptive cruise control and you still wear a helmet, just in case, right? No? Well, you're probably less safe than that guy, then.

Sorry, but the $20xx challenge is FAR from the same racing as Lemons/Chumpcar. You're doing an auto-x and 1/4 drag. The cage requirements in a 1/4 drag are far from the same standard and unless you have a car breaking into the 11's you don't need anything at all. No one is going to punt you off the track into a wall during the $20xx challenge.

Just because everyone on the team has a part in building the cage doesn't mean the cage was done properly and will work in the event of a large off. Let's face it, generally everyone on the team is an amateur builder and while they can fabricate and weld, it's just not the same as having a pro cage builder doing it. Since it's my neck on the line, that's the guy I want building my cage and I'm willing to pay for it. I feel I'm worth it, so does my family.

It's not the racing itself that makes me pause, it's being on track with a ton of novices that have next to no track experience. I track extensively and have confidence that the drivers I'm out on track with won't do stupid stuff and that they act predictably.

You just can't say that when you're out in a field of 80-100 cars where the majority of them really have no idea what they're doing.

It's fun watching people get off topic!

I raced some sportbikes and felt safer on the track going 150mph+ then riding in rush hour!!! Idiots are EVERYWHERE, so heads-up!

mightymike- I hate to admit that I get an upset stomach running karts for too long! I know I'm such a pansy... Inner-ear issue or some crap, hate it!!!!! Auto-X and Roadracing bikes= no issues

And no I don't plan on sharing gear, sorry.

Racing $500 cars doesn't automatically equate to a field of all novices and drivers who "really have no idea what they're doing". Hell, Randy Pobst came through the safety gear check line behind me.

A fair portion of the Cumpcar field I saw seemed to be SCCA/NASA club racers looking for track time and a more relaxed atmosphere. Most of the rest were weekend DE & time-trial drivers looking to move up to real racing - the same types of drivers who make up the rookie ranks in SCCA racing.

docwyte wrote: Wow, $1100 for a full cage? I spent more than twice that for my rollbar. I wouldn't get in a car with a $1100 welded rollcage, anyone undervaluing their time like that probably doesn't know what the F they're doing. I also wouldn't get in a car with a rollcage made by one of my team members unless that's what he does as his main profession. You guys are very cavalier about this and given enough time it's going to bite you in the ass in a bad way. Nothing will save your life more than a well made cage and there's a lot more to that then just some tubing and the ability to weld. I also wouldn't dream of running without a HANS. I also wouldn't loan my HANS out to anyone. I don't loan any of my safety gear. It's mine, for me. Go buy your own and don't F up mine. These cheap car race series have caught my interest some, but I have no desire to be on the track with these huge fields of cars built that are mostly thrown together driven by people with vast differences in track experience.

http://www.roadraceautox.com/showpost.php?p=902274&postcount=81

My first cage build, done in a lemons car. It's nicer than half of the "real race cars" I've since laid eyes on. It's not my profession. It doesn't have to be. I'm a mechanical engineer by day because it pays better than fabricator, not because I'm not a capable fabricator. That said, hell no I won't build a cage for $1100. Too damn much trouble.

HANS devices are super easy to share. I was going to wear a horse collar for my first race, but one of my teammates had bought a HANS that fits me. I bought a set of anchors for my helmet, and now we both get the pimpy high end safety gear. It's probably the easiest piece of safety gear to share, as it doesn't get all sweaty and grungy like most safety gear.

DILYSI Dave wrote: http://www.roadraceautox.com/showpost.php?p=902274&postcount=81 My first cage build, done in a lemons car. It's nicer than half of the "real race cars" I've since laid eyes on. It's not my profession. It doesn't have to be. I'm a mechanical engineer by day because it pays better than fabricator, not because I'm not a capable fabricator. That said, hell no I won't build a cage for $1100. Too damn much trouble.

I was thinking the exact same thing about my N600...a hell of a lot better than most of the "professional" work that I see! I COULD be a professional race car builder, but that doesn't mean that I am. Sounds like docwyte assumes only people who take a lot of his money can be good fabricators.

Bryce

DILYSI Dave wrote: HANS devices are super easy to share. I was going to wear a horse collar for my first race, but one of my teammates had bought a HANS that fits me. I bought a set of anchors for my helmet, and now we both get the pimpy high end safety gear. It's probably the easiest piece of safety gear to share, as it doesn't get all sweaty and grungy like most safety gear.

Yeah, we shared my HANS (actually a different brand, but same deal) for the first few races. If a HANS device is so fragile you can bust it by dropping it , I don't want to wear one in a wreck . And i also wanted my buddies to be well protected in the event that the worst might happen. The foam collars just don't cut it IMO.

$1100 cage is a bargain. The guys on our team did our own, it took hours and hours and a decent amount of $$$ for materials.