I'm surprised I haven't seen this on here yet.
Keith how hard is it to actually make more power while maintaining a CARB stamp?
I'm surprised I haven't seen this on here yet.
Keith how hard is it to actually make more power while maintaining a CARB stamp?
I'm surprised it hadn't shown up either, but I guess the news only dropped yesterday. I feel for them, they're doing the right things now but they weren't back in the day. These fines are rarely a surprise, Cobb's undoubtedly been talking with the EPA for some time. And they're not the only ones who are getting fines - this one isn't on the list yet, but you can see all the case resolutions here. For example, Kooks got hit for $300k last year. A big diesel tuner shop just got nailed with $10MM because they're unrepentant second offenders. Usually the fines are scaled to hurt but not sink the company...the first time. Also, we're in the wrong business. We should be selling truck parts!
How hard? Well, certainly not impossible, especially if you're dealing with a boosted car. You may not be able to make the ultimate power levels you can without regards for emissions, especially on older cars with non-reflashable ECUs. And yes, we have a product in very early development that might help some there :)
Expensive? Yes, because you have to do the testing and you may have to make some different design decisions. For example, we are retaining the factory primary cats on our NC and ND turbo kits and that definitely complicates manufacturing and sales. There's a LOT of paperwork too, you have to submit it fairly early if you don't want it to hold up your development process. But that's what it takes.
And just like that the value of all the "prebans" went way up.
I also think its funny that T Swizzle and other celebs can fly their private jets all over the country contributing way way WAY more to emissions that every single bro'd out Subaru with an Accessport and a straight pipe, and yet, here we are.
Those private jets are also subject to emissions and noise regulations.
This is why I bought all the necessary parts for the Touareg long before I needed them.
It paid off since the exhaust parts are no longer sold in the USA.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Is it possible to get a CARB stamp for E85 on a car not originally sold to run E85?
Keith Tanner said:Those private jets are also subject to emissions and noise regulations.
Maybe, but 87 "well regulated" G5 private flights a year for a single elite are going to dump 10zillion percent more emissions than a riced out Jetta ever could delivering pizzas
In reply to 4cylndrfury :
So what are you advocating for? Whats your solution? We ban the private jets (hell, I'm for it,) we allow individuals to pollute to their content with personal vehicles?
I hear this criticism about private jets a lot, but I almost never hear a follow up. Lately its almost always a way to bash Swift as well, which is weird.
In reply to Mr_Asa :
The point I read on another story was that it seems silly for the EPA to go after the 0.02% of cars with an Accessport vs the number of poorly maintained jalopies that are likely putting our far more emissions. And there are likely far of those jalopies.
z31maniac said:In reply to Mr_Asa :
The point I read on another story was that it seems silly for the EPA to go after the 0.02% of cars with an Accessport vs the number of poorly maintained jalopies that are likely putting our far more emissions. And there are likely far of those jalopies.
They aren't going after the cars, they are going after the companies actively breaking the law.
Maybe go after actual polluters, not tickytacky pointless EPA overlord automobile laws that really have no impact on air quality in the long run?
What if I told you that China alone pollutes the air so much that even if every internal combustion engine in America was decommissioned in favor or bicycles, that it wouldn't even move the needle on global air quality?
The EPA is borderline pointless when it comes to our cars.
Example: For many years, Ohio had emissions testing requirements every so many years (2? 4? I can't remember) as part of your registration renewal. Too rich or too much exhaust? No tags for you. After many many years of this, the net result was: this epic boondoggle yielded exactly zero benefit to air quality. So it was dropped like a bad habit.
This is a microcosm of the macro problem - the EPA sticks it's nose into the lives and businesses of people they have no reason to. Do you think CARB standards do anything at all to benefit air quality when comparing the impact of car emissions against the impact of jet emissions?
In reply to Mr_Asa :
Right, because that's what the EPA has the power to do. The states are supposed to take care of the individual level - and a lot of states (but not all) do.
z31maniac said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
Is it possible to get a CARB stamp for E85 on a car not originally sold to run E85?
I would think so. The question is "can you get it to run as cleanly on E85 as it does on standard gasoline"? That's not just driving down the interstate when hot, but the full gamut of operating conditions including cold start, evaporative emissions and hard acceleration. I know that cold start is not a strong point of E85 but I've never hooked a sniffer up to a car to find out if that is reflected in tailpipe emissions. It may also have to pass certain failure conditions, such as what happens when someone fills with normal gasoline and the car doesn't have an ethanol sensor? You can't expect the consumer to measure every tank of gas for ethanol content and then adjust the tune appropriately. User-adjustable things that can affect emissions are a no-go.
4cylndrfury said:Maybe go after actual polluters, not tickytacky pointless EPA overlord automobile laws that really have no impact on air quality in the long run?
What if I told you that China alone pollutes the air so much that even if every internal combustion engine in America was decommissioned in favor or bicycles, that it wouldn't even move the needle on global air quality?
The EPA is borderline pointless when it comes to our cars.
Example: For many years, Ohio had emissions testing requirements every so many years (2? 4? I can't remember) as part of your registration renewal. Too rich or too much exhaust? No tags for you. After many many years of this, the net result was: this epic boondoggle yielded exactly zero benefit to air quality. So it was dropped like a bad habit.
This is a microcosm of the macro problem - the EPA sticks it's nose into the lives and businesses of people they have no reason to. Do you think CARB standards do anything at all to benefit air quality when comparing the impact of car emissions against the impact of jet emissions?
So the EPA is supposed to police China? Again, I'm not sure what you are getting at, what you want to happen, or what your solution is.
The EPA does go after actual polluters, as evidenced by the contents of this thread.
You want to make a big deal about one riced out Jetta. The companies selling these kits are selling them to thousands upon thousands of people. Its not one car.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to Mr_Asa :
Right, because that's what the EPA has the power to do. The states are supposed to take care of the individual level - and a lot of states (but not all) do.
Looks like about 2/3........I was surprised to see that only something like 18 states have safety inspections.
Mr_Asa said:4cylndrfury said:Maybe go after actual polluters, not tickytacky pointless EPA overlord automobile laws that really have no impact on air quality in the long run?
What if I told you that China alone pollutes the air so much that even if every internal combustion engine in America was decommissioned in favor or bicycles, that it wouldn't even move the needle on global air quality?
The EPA is borderline pointless when it comes to our cars.
Example: For many years, Ohio had emissions testing requirements every so many years (2? 4? I can't remember) as part of your registration renewal. Too rich or too much exhaust? No tags for you. After many many years of this, the net result was: this epic boondoggle yielded exactly zero benefit to air quality. So it was dropped like a bad habit.
This is a microcosm of the macro problem - the EPA sticks it's nose into the lives and businesses of people they have no reason to. Do you think CARB standards do anything at all to benefit air quality when comparing the impact of car emissions against the impact of jet emissions?
So the EPA is supposed to police China? Again, I'm not sure what you are getting at, what you want to happen, or what your solution is.
The EPA does go after actual polluters, as evidenced by the contents of this thread.
You want to make a big deal about one riced out Jetta. The companies selling these kits are selling them to thousands upon thousands of people. Its not one car.
I think what he's getting at is pretty obvious. The EPA is pointless especially as it pertains to going after aftermarket parts companies for cars. The amount that "we're" polluting compared to a million other things they could be going after is absolutely miniscule and an asinine thing to do/another great way to target and punish the middle class. It's the proverbial low hanging fruit because most of these companies have absolutely no way to actually defend themselves and will simply get fined millions and millions of dollars, effectively resulting in the EPA being able to fund themselves via lawsuits, but I won't get political. I will say this, you think the EPA actually has active records on what every single car puts out in terms of actual emissions (NOX, C02, etc) and how different it is when you put a high flow cat on one of them or perhaps even delete the cat and run a car on e85? No, they have actually no idea and all of their enforcement is based on pure speculation and people who are on a crusade against anything they perceive as not being "green", while ignoring other blatantly obvious offenders that are having a demonstrably larger negative impact on the actual environment.
In reply to LukeGT :
Each individual car might not be a massive source of pollutants, but there are hundreds of millions of them out there. And it's been shown that deleting the emissions components from one vehicle is equivalent to a dozen or more unmodified vehicles. Multiply that by a large number of modified vehicles, and it's a huge effect. Like, a third of a million modified pickups is equivalent to an extra 5.7 million trucks on the road.
The EPA does indeed have records as to what every car puts out in terms of actual emissions. Not each individual one, they're assumed to be identical at the point of manufacture. But that's part of developing a car for sale. As for aftermarket parts, it's not up to the EPA to determine if a high flow cat makes a car pollute more (hint: it almost definitely does, as they generally have less surface area for the catalysts). It's up to the vendor to prove that it does not just like the car manufacturer had to prove the car was clean as designed. This mechanism is in place and it involves those CARB EOs that have been discussed.
If you think all other offenders are being ignored, that's because you're reading car news. Go to that link I posted earlier showing case resolutions. Note that there are railways on that list. And that's just the mobile sources, go to other areas and you'll see what's being done with regards to industry. It's all public information, feast on it.
I remember the air quality in Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and other places 40 and 50 years ago. EPA rules took the air quality in those places from looking like what you see in China today to actually having clear skies. It also happened while there was a massive increase in annual miles driven in the U.S. In the grand scheme of things, the difference happened fairly quickly.
Just a thought, have a good one.
LukeGT said:I think what he's getting at is pretty obvious. The EPA is pointless especially as it pertains to going after aftermarket parts companies for cars. The amount that "we're" polluting compared to a million other things they could be going after is absolutely miniscule and an asinine thing to do/another great way to target and punish the middle class.
Do you know anyone who was personally/individually targeted by the EPA? I've only ever seen the fine companies who are selling defeat/modification devices?
LukeGT said:
It's the proverbial low hanging fruit because most of these companies have absolutely no way to actually defend themselves and will simply get fined millions and millions of dollars, effectively resulting in the EPA being able to fund themselves via lawsuits, but I won't get political.
I mean, the way to defend themselves is to not sell emissions defeating devices in the first place, or, to test the devices before sales to ensure they're CARB (or local equivalent) compliant. You have wildly improbable access to someone doing this exact thing, so ask Keith. You also have AlfaDriver who worked on emissions systems for one of the big 3, and is always happy to chat about the real world for OEMs.
Also, it's not too hard to find out that the EPA isn't lining its own pockets with fines. Here's literally the first result for searching "what happens when the government fines a company?" https://www.marketplace.org/2022/08/12/where-does-money-collected-from-corporate-fines-go/ Spoiler: it's added to the treasury's bottom line.
LukeGT said:
I will say this, you think the EPA actually has active records on what every single car puts out in terms of actual emissions (NOX, C02, etc) and how different it is when you put a high flow cat on one of them or perhaps even delete the cat and run a car on e85? No, they have actually no idea and all of their enforcement is based on pure speculation and people who are on a crusade against anything they perceive as not being "green", while ignoring other blatantly obvious offenders that are having a demonstrably larger negative impact on the actual environment.
You're thinking of this backwards. The EPA does not have a catalog of what every aftermarket part will do to the emissions systems of every car ever sold. That's not their job. Their job is to ensure that companies are selling products that meet emmissions standards agreed up on by the government. Ford/Mazda/Chevy/Etc. all agree to this if they want to sell cars in the US. Their cars are all authorized to pass emmissions (some used to have California only models specific for CAFE standards, so you'd find them in NY (which adopted CAFE) and CA only, for example). If they lie about it (VW Dieselgate), they can expect to be fined in relation to the severity of their crimes. Yes, crimes, this is a law.
It's up to the company making aftermarket equipment that will see public-space use to ensure that it will not violate that law. Flyin Miata figured out how to make a 50-state CARB legal turbo kit that adds 50%+ power, so it's not impossible. Magnaflow certified that the catalytic converter I put on my track car to pass emissions here in CT met the federal guidelines. If it didn't, I would expect that I could have gotten a refund from them for false advertising, and that the EPA would have been really interested if it were endemic to their product line.
If you're seriously against it, I would recommend starting a political career and try to get the EPA shut down and emissions laws repealed. Just don't be too surprised when those of us who enjoy clean air and water are opposed to it.
I'm definitely not saying that 100% of all other offenders are being ignored, but I definitely think that there are bigger and badder things they could be going after then aftermarket performance manufacturers/tuners for cars. When you look at the number of cars that are on the road and the percentage of those that are modified (At least from a high performance standpoint, so not counting people that strictly go for Aesthetics, audio, etc) and then look at the percentage of those cars that are even driven on a regular basis or used as a "daily", I would venture to bet that it's insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Hell, I could be wrong and that's all certainly hard to prove, granted. But if so, I'll freely admit that I don't care and I'll go back to pointing out the fact that you could level the entire US tomorrow and it wouldn't even make a dent on the amount of total pollutants going out on the planet because of what's happening in Asia (esp China) and their utter disregard for anything environmentally friendly. So with that said, I'm fully against anyone trying to take away my hobby.
Also, absolutely no reasonable person is against clean air and water. I'm simply VERY skeptical of anyone claiming that you're catless Miata going to the track on the weekends is killing anyone in any literal or measurable way. "But you're breaking the law!!" Oh yes, cause absolutely all laws are based on perfect facts and morals. Remember slavery was once the law of the land, along with things like prohibition and more recently all states had Weed fully illegal, but that's changed hasn't it?
In reply to LukeGT :
Read that EPA letter I posted, it's an actual study with numbers. Warning, like every study it's not a light read. But the numbers are a lot larger than you think.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-01/documents/epaaedletterreportontampereddieselpickups.pdf
Nobody's trying to take away your hobby, unless your hobby is specifically trying to pollute as much as possible. In which case, your coal rolling sucks and you should stop. What's happening is that you will have access to the tools to continue your hobby without increasing emissions. That's good for all of us.
Someone else behaving badly does not give us the right to do the same. It's on us to make as much of a difference as we can.
Wonko and Keith covered most of what I would have (thanks guys)
The one I'd also point out is that the EPA is a federal agency. They are limited to what they can do at certain levels. They also don't get to choose when and where to go after law breakers. They allocate resources based on manpower, but everyone does that
You want a group exempted or chased down, lobby for that change
Nobody's trying to take away your hobby, unless your hobby is specifically trying to pollute as much as possible. In which case, your coal rolling sucks and you should stop. What's happening is that you will have access to the tools to continue your hobby without increasing emissions. That's good for all of us.
Someone else behaving badly does not give us the right to do the same. It's on us to make as much of a difference as we can.
Just for the record, I'm 100 percent fully against coal rolling, I hate VW for what they did a la dieselgate (although admittedly still love many of their cars regardless), and I think "pops and bangs" tunes are one of the worst things ever to exist, just throwing that out there. I'm all about keeping a low profile, and unfortunately the diesel truck community is hugely to blame for the EPA even enforcing this stuff to the level they are at this point for how flagrantly and aggressively they flouted the rules.
In reply to LukeGT :
The US has about 4.25% of the world's population and contributes around 13.5% of global emissions. China has around 17% of the world's people and makes about 35% of the pollution.
We really all must improve since we share this precious and fragile blue orb with the future.
(Source for statistics: Google Gemini and Bing co-pilot.)
Emissions and efficiency regulations have nearly always, in the long term, resulted in advancements in technology that in the end, resulted in improved performance.
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