Just checking to make sure there are old men in here yelling at clouds.
Check. Carry on.
Just checking to make sure there are old men in here yelling at clouds.
Check. Carry on.
MrFancypants said:alfadriver said:In reply to YoursTruly :
Soul is relative. I have come across many Alfa owners in my life, and most of them will tell you that the Miata has barely any soul, if any.
I'm not an Alfa owner, but I prefer to describe vehicle "soul" using animals. I'd say that the Miata has the soul of a Corgi, athletic, fun, and easy to live with. An EV Miata would definitely still be athletic, fun, and easy to with if electrified.
An Alfa is more like a Pekinese, mischievous but high maintenance and stubborn owned by people who believe other animals who lack these qualities "have no soul" to make themselves feel better about the abusive relationship they're in. If you enjoy being kicked in the crotch over and over again adding EV propulsion to an Alfa would not make it better (for you).
Soul is what you want to see. And not see what you want to ignore.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:Keith Tanner said:In reply to YoursTruly :
Thing is, the engine is the weakest part of the Miata package. It's never been special, just good enough. And as the platform has evolved, it has gained an engine with more low-end torque, a flatter power curve and sharper throttle response. It's been moving closer and closer to an electric powertrain all along.
I get your point about electric powertrains representing the ideal that ICEs have been striving for all along. But I'd counter that the imperfections in IC engines are what make them fun. My old 944 Turbo had really bad turbo lag that made it hard to modulate the throttle and get consistent performance. But damn if it didn't make me giggle when the boost did come in. One of my favorite things about the Fox body Mustangs I've had was that you could sit there with the car idling, punch the throttle in neutral, and the whole car would twist on it's suspension because of the torque and mass of the engine. I've already mentioned the sound of the Boxster's engine, which I love, but I also loved the sound of the Coyote in my 2011 Mustang, for completely different reasons. Speaking of Mustangs, why did Ford go to all the trouble and expense of making the flat-plane engine for the GT350? For the feel and the sound of it. Those things matter.
Unless there are differences I'm not aware of (I've only driven a handful of EVs), electric powertrains all deliver performance the same way. An ocean of silent torque. Yes, it's cool in it's way, but once everything is powered that way, what's the difference?
Again, I agree that electric powertrains are objectively better. But we don't love these inanimate hunks of steel, aluminum, and plastic for objective reasons, do we?
While I totally see your point, EV's are not the source of that going away- electronic throttle is. Add in the super fast, no lag turbos, and you now have a car that has no real flaws in driving like cars used to.
Which is also to say, it would be really easy to program in "turbo lag" in an EV. I will say that not many customers would be doing that- the general acceptance of very linear foot to power control isn't going to put in driving flaws any time soon.
Electric cars still need the Jetsons flying car noise...
My 2016 Mini doesn't engage me a quarter as much as the BMW 2002 or the MGB, and I keep having what feel like physical withdrawal symptoms over how long since I've had an A1-chassis VW.
All of which is to say that modern cars, EV or not, are really, really good, and I'd rather use one for commuting and road trips than the cars where I've found myself troubleshooting DGVs at rest stops, but the "soul" ship has long since sailed.
Or maybe to say that it's totally subjective. In any case, the transition to EVs isn't any more "the one thing" than adding computers was, or any of the other things that were supposed to be the end of hot rodding, or the beginning of hermetically sealed appliances... It's a little different for everyone, but I put it to you that if you're that wound up about what gives a car that special something, you should probably not be relying on the manufacturers to be building you what you want. Start with something built in the last half-century and make it what you want.
We have this funny habit, as the short-lived and shorter-memoried creatures that we are, of turning remarkably short slices of time into "time immemorial" and bestowing the weight of history on these miniature eras. We've got "traditional" hot rods that have spent decades paying homage to a first draft that lasted a few years. The history of the motorcar is little more than a century. Call me crazy, but I would be awfully surprised if any of us had a really good guess at what humans and transport will look like in fifty years. Kids born today are likely to look at us like we look at steam engine nuts. That is, a tiny proportion (hello, GRM) will think they're really cool, and the vast majority will not have any idea why anybody would do that.
And the thing is, that's fine. I'm delighted to be playing with cars and motorcycles and living in the time in which I exist. The past didn't look like this, and neither will the future. Kids born twenty years from now will be into different things that haven't been invented yet. Somewhere in there energy density and control tech might give us really practical, affordable personal aircraft that look and fly even better than the current R/C drones. Sounds like a tangent, but what's a kid who's 13 in 2050 going to have on their wall? A Countach? I don't think so.
Electric cars are one trick ponies. Once you get past the quick torque there's nothing interesting about them. The electric Corvette makes sad.
my opinion doesn't matter because I can't buy a new car.
why aren't manufacturers and citizens pushing back against these EV mandates?
Once you get past the quick torque electric cars can do everything an ICE can do other than making a racket. What's the problem with that? What's not interesting about a low center of gravity and precise torque vectoring? It's not so much that they're one trick ponies, it's that they basically differ from gas-powered cars in one way only.
GM's decision to go electric (and hydrogen) is not a mandate from outside the company. It was an internal decision. Some manufacturers are definitely pushing back against various requirements, just like they have against safety requirements and emissions regulations over the decades. Citizens, as it turns out, are voting with their wallets.
We do have to give a shout out to Colin for yet another seamless photoshop job for article.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Thanks for saying so well exactly what I was thinking. Additionally, I want to drive. I want as little impact on where I'm going as possible. I want fast, fun, and efficient. Why can't I have all that? Let me keep my hands at nine and three, point the car where I want to go, and let the computers figure it out. Does it make an F35 pilot any less skilled cause that's how fighter jets work? Nope, they're still cool.
I have a 75 Stingray in the garage. I build scale models of Corvettes. When I get time I draw them as well. I read about them. I collect everything I can about them. I'm about as Corvette as they come (sorry, not balding, no NBs or polos) but I can't wait to see what comes next for Corvette. And, I think Zora, the engineer, would whole heartedly approve!
alfadriver said:MrFancypants said:alfadriver said:In reply to YoursTruly :
Soul is relative. I have come across many Alfa owners in my life, and most of them will tell you that the Miata has barely any soul, if any.
I'm not an Alfa owner, but I prefer to describe vehicle "soul" using animals. I'd say that the Miata has the soul of a Corgi, athletic, fun, and easy to live with. An EV Miata would definitely still be athletic, fun, and easy to with if electrified.
An Alfa is more like a Pekinese, mischievous but high maintenance and stubborn owned by people who believe other animals who lack these qualities "have no soul" to make themselves feel better about the abusive relationship they're in. If you enjoy being kicked in the crotch over and over again adding EV propulsion to an Alfa would not make it better (for you).
Soul is what you want to see. And not see what you want to ignore.
I can see that, but I like to buy with my eyes open. Even if I'm just following my heart and buying the shiny red Alfa because just look at it, it's gorgeous, if my brain isn't fully educated about the nightmare my garage might become my resolve to struggle through that nightmare won't be strong enough to actually enjoy the car.
Hell, to some of us there's enjoyment to be found in flaws, like old school turbo lag or rejetting a carb.
But I'm still excited for EVs. Because sometimes I think it's more fun to be in a moving car than it is get a flooded RX-7 to sputter back to life.
I'm pretty sure the Corvette crowd isn't as concerned over the hybrid or electric drivetrain as they are about the shape of the tail lights
/flame suit on
stanger_mussle (Supported by GRM undergarments) said:I'm pretty sure the Corvette crowd isn't as concerned over the hybrid or electric drivetrain as they are about the shape of the tail lights
/flame suit on
Plus, with no ICE taking up space, there's more room for golf clubs.
With all this conversation, I still don't see any discussion of what I see as the major problems with all EV situation: where do we propose to get all the electricity to charge these vehicles, and what the hell do we do with expired lithium batteries ?
We currently have an electric infrastructure that can just barely manage to support our current demands, what happens when we overload it with millions of EVs ? I realize that it will take decades for ICE vehicles to disappear, but I don't see any progress to date to upgrade the electric supply side of things.
And just wait until the cartels in South America get control of the major lithium supplies, the Energizer Bunny will not be happy.
There is no one answer to the energy supply issue, it will take a combination of many sources to fulfill the future needs of the world, but this rush to EV land is of concern to me. I really don't think this has been thought through very well at all.
300zxfreak said:With all this conversation, I still don't see any discussion of what I see as the major problems with all EV situation: where do we propose to get all the electricity to charge these vehicles, and what the hell do we do with expired lithium batteries ?
We currently have an electric infrastructure that can just barely manage to support our current demands, what happens when we overload it with millions of EVs ? I realize that it will take decades for ICE vehicles to disappear, but I don't see any progress to date to upgrade the electric supply side of things.
And just wait until the cartels in South America get control of the major lithium supplies, the Energizer Bunny will not be happy.
There is no one answer to the energy supply issue, it will take a combination of many sources to fulfill the future needs of the world, but this rush to EV land is of concern to me. I really don't think this has been thought through very well at all.
Gotta keep those child miners employed, right? Think of the children! If they don't die in a mine or as foot soldiers in a war or from the toxic runoff then they'll probably build some serious character.
As for the rush, I think they know that they just need to make the right sounds and hand gestures to rake in the good will and make it up as they go along. They've got plenty of time before people have the money and they have the supply given that we're still doing good to keep TP on shelves.
(Not in the "excited for EV" camp but I'm excited to see all the reasons that I'm wrong.)
300zxfreak said:With all this conversation, I still don't see any discussion of what I see as the major problems with all EV situation: where do we propose to get all the electricity to charge these vehicles, and what the hell do we do with expired lithium batteries ?
We currently have an electric infrastructure that can just barely manage to support our current demands, what happens when we overload it with millions of EVs ?
The secret of the electrical energy industry is that our utilities have sized their operations around peak demand. Most of the time that is during daytime hours, when people are working. The utilities can throttle back somewhat at night, but less than you might think in many cases. If you have seen an offer from your utility trying to lure you into time of use billing, now your know why.
If people mostly charge their cars overnight like their cell phones, it may not be as bad as some think it will be.
Plus, utilities plan and build on decades long timelines. They're been prepping and building out for all this for the past 10+ years.
I used to design high voltage switches that were specially designed for this, and business was booming. 10+ years ago!
Well, except for the fact that supply chain issues are hitting utilities hard right now...
racerfink said:Swamp Rat 38 catches fire during burnout.
Don Garlits (at 90!) brought his new electric dragster out to Palm Beach International Raceway this last Saturday for the "Last Lap" celebration.
I know this isn't likely to go on Don Garlits' career highlights video, but how badass is he? 90 freaking years old, and still chasing speed in innovative ways.
In reply to MrFancypants :
The only reason flaws are accepted is that the rest of the performance more than makes up for it. It was well known at Ford that the best cars in the eyes of the consumers were always the worst in reliability- Sierra Cosworth, Taurus SHO, Mustangs, etc.
EV's deliver that performance, and even fill a hole that ICE's have. So the lack of flaws will be more accepted than the addition of flaws.
This coming from someone who autocrossed an Alfa that I knew was slower than a Miata in my same class because it was more interesting to drive.
300zxfreak said:where do we propose to get all the electricity to charge these vehicles
We can literally charge them with the sun. Do the math to see for yourself, you can take out a loan to have solar panels installed on your home, which ends up being offset by paying nothing for household electricity and vehicle fuel. The cherry on top is that the battery in the car can power your home for days if there's a power outage.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Thank you, it had to be a quick turnaround, but I'm still pleased with the result. 
I'm going to miss new IC cars but I'm excited by the new electrics. I think an electric C8 will be awesome.
I'm less excited by hybrids. Particularly in performance applications like the C8. I've driven a NSX on track and it was cool and all but it didn't really do anything better than other supercars in its class. The computers did an amazing job of applying power from the various sources to the different wheels at the right time and the electric motors in the front made neat noises when they were working hard but it felt more like a really great technology showcase than an exciting performance car.
We are in a small group of people who expect a car the be more than a reliable transportation appliance. For the vast majority out there the lack of involvement in the driving experience is welcomed. Electric vehicle performance is definitely more than exceeding ice already. Maybe they will decided to incorporate an unnecessary but entertaining manual transmission driveline in a sporting EV someday.
I think another big point being omitted in the EV discussion, besides the supply vs demand of lithium batteries (all those new iPads at home need batteries too you know) and the disposal or recycling of worn out batteries, is the resulting effects on the used car market. Do you think you'll be able to buy an old electric Silverado with 200,000 on the clock for cheap and then put another 100,000 mostly trouble free miles on it? Yeah right.
Mechanical parts are not the big ticket items to repair in modern ICE vehicles its the electronics they're dependent on. It is quickly going to become cost prohibitive to buy or own a used EV.
Remember that first car you bought with your own money when you were a kid, well those won't be available or they will need a new battery or computer component that there is no way you can afford. Better just put your money down on a Segway or use your watch to summon a driverless EV to pick you up.
Oh, and in regards to sound. I think we are going to need some ordinances to regulate the decibel level of that EV whine. The loud high pitch is grating on the ears.
In reply to bigben :
Much of the noise on a lot of EVs is artificially added to meet legal requirements around insufficient noise at low speeds making it hard for pedestrians to notice EVs. Hybrids do it too when the gas engine is running, at least on newer models (older ones don't).
I agree--GM is on track to ruin the driving experience and remove the soul from cars!
My car, a 1929 Ford Model A, is the last true driver's car. There's no synchronizer big brother nannies forcing perfect shifts from imperfect drivers; you learn the mastery of a perfect double-clutched shift and are forced to rev-match every downshift. Synchronizers are just watering down the driving experience.
It also has no automatic igniting timing advance, because that's another way drivers are forced to disconnect from their cars and purposely blocked from driving nirvana. My engine is down on power or pinging on MY schedule, not operating according to some far off beancounter's whims.
The Model A doesn't water down the braking experience, either: My foot gets to decide when and how the wheels stop, without being crudely translated by fluids and pistons. Thankfully they aren't boosted, either, which would be even worse.
I could go on and on--hard to believe GM forces the Corvette to breath air through a filter instead of witnessing the real environment al fresco like the Model A. I hear the fuel will be filtered, too, just proving that driving has gone soft.
Yes, I'm certain: the 1953 Corvette is going to ruin driving for good!
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