Convince me not to buy either of these cars: FR-S and FiST

FRS: I have doubts about the reliability of the boxer. I would also bet they are a pain to work on. Also, the engine note with the stock exhaust is absolutely nothing to write home about. Also they have an annoying issue where you get crazy condensation in the rear tail lights. Also sounds like many people have been having various problems with them, even at such low miles. According to consumer reports, the car dropped Subaru's reliability rating from 5th to 10th and dropped Scion's from 1st to 11th.

Now for the FiST. I've never driven one (that fact alone could completely invalidate what I'm about to say) but FWD, no matter how good it is, is still FWD at the end of the day. So no matter how they set up the suspension or diff settings, it still wont drive quite like a proper RWD car, and thus in MY book would not be quite as enjoyable for me.

Plus its all practical and gets amazing MPG. Oh wait...

I know I'm being a bit harsh on the BRZ. I would love to own one, but if you are seriously considering one, I would recommend trying out the new ND Miata first. I mean its only a few notches below the BRZ on the "practicality scale", lets be honest.

Focus RS and ND Miata are out of my price range. I'm poor. However I did see an ND out in the wild yesterday and it looked cool. Pretty much everything I'm reading here validates my thoughts on the cars. I'm still heavily leaning towards the FR-S because RWD and the only goofy gadget is the stupid sound tube from the intake. It needs to be the weekend already so I can test drive both.

The FoST and the FiST are just unreal in how they drive, you suddenly forget you are in an economy car,the issue for me is the interiors are right out of a sci-fi film and the whole electronic nannys, though you don't really feel them until you get on a track you don't have full and complete control causing you to become complacent in some driving habbits.

The Fuzzy/bro-z are as natural as you can get driving wise, just enough to get you in trouble and just practical enough to be a year rounder, issue is looking up anything Subaru engine related from 96 on up and you will find more nightmares then you would expect and it's not just from asshats being abusive.

Last thought, have you checked prices on a late model NC?

I'm a month into brzhood and I like it a lot. Power is ok. Handling is lovely. It reminds me of fc rx7. I wanted a hard roof. There are moments where I miss having a drop top and plusher suspension. If you dont need a hard top and can deal with smaller interior, maybe wait for ND to get under 25k.

JtspellS wrote: The FoST and the FiST are just unreal in how they drive, you suddenly forget you are in an economy car,the issue for me is the interiors are right out of a sci-fi film and the whole electronic nannys, though you don't really feel them until you get on a track you don't have full and complete control causing you to become complacent in some driving habbits. The Fuzzy/bro-z are as natural as you can get driving wise, just enough to get you in trouble and just practical enough to be a year rounder, issue is looking up anything Subaru engine related from 96 on up and you will find more nightmares then you would expect and it's not just from asshats being abusive. Last thought, have you checked prices on a late model NC?

NC is on my used car list which is kind of a weird list. These are the ones I'll fall back on if I find the the FR-Z and FiST to be complete crap. That thread comes later but it gets weird:

NC Miata

S2000

Mazdaspeed 3

Cobalt SS turbo

Those last two are heavier than I'd like though.

I would love an S2000 but the low mile ones are still a bit too spendy for me. I am weary of buying a high mile car because, even with Honda's genius ingenuity behind their 4 cylinder engines, the S2000 engine is working at it's wits end to put all that power out of 2 liters worth of volume. If the car has been driven hard most of its life, I just dont see that engine reaching typical Honda lifespan (300k miles). There IS a really nice one for sale locally though for 15k, and it even comes with a hardtop.

Can't speak to the frisbee side, but owning a SVT and having driven a FiST on a short Ford autocross, the FiST seams to have a ton more torque than the SVT. Even thought the FiST feels more cramped inside than the SVT I expect is would be a riot of a daily driver. I would hope with less power the FiST nannies would kick in less often than with the FoST's nannies (which I thought were a bit overbearing.)

I have a FoST. Go drive one before you dismiss it. Every car has electronic support these days. I didn't think I could get used to a FWD car either, but the FoST is a really good daily, just easy to drive with plenty of torque and great handling.

You can disable the FoST handling stuff except the ediff. I never notice that aspect at autox.

Desmond wrote: FRS: I have doubts about the reliability of the boxer. I would also bet they are a pain to work on.

I've been responsible for one at work over the last month, and it's actually fairly easy to work on, with the exception of the coils and plugs. That's definitely not easy. So far we've had no issues with ours. It may only have like 350 miles on it, but all of them have been on track, so it's earned every one.

Just wanted to mention that you sons of bitches in this thread have me considering a FiST along with the E46 M3, FRC C5, and Evo 8.
Especially since all three are hard (impossible?) to find in stock, non-haggard shape.

Desmond wrote: FRS: I have doubts about the reliability of the boxer. I would also bet they are a pain to work on. Also, the engine note with the stock exhaust is absolutely nothing to write home about. Also they have an annoying issue where you get crazy condensation in the rear tail lights. Also sounds like many people have been having various problems with them, even at such low miles. According to consumer reports, the car dropped Subaru's reliability rating from 5th to 10th and dropped Scion's from 1st to 11th. Now for the FiST. I've never driven one (that fact alone could completely invalidate what I'm about to say) but FWD, no matter how good it is, is still FWD at the end of the day. So no matter how they set up the suspension or diff settings, it still wont drive quite like a proper RWD car, and thus in MY book would not be quite as enjoyable for me. Plus its all practical and gets amazing MPG. Oh wait... I know I'm being a bit harsh on the BRZ. I would love to own one, but if you are seriously considering one, I would recommend trying out the new ND Miata first. I mean its only a few notches below the BRZ on the "practicality scale", lets be honest.

FA shares nothing with the old EJs.

Jackson Racing, Ptuning, etc have shown many tens of thousands of track miles at 2-4x stock power levels with no issues (maybe need to change the clutch for holding power).

Taillight condensation was an early issue on the 2013s, haven't read about it since.

What are these "various problems?" To me that sounds like uninhibited conjecture.

Element Tuning has done some really good research on the oil system. They've done some modifications to the bottom end and oil passages and are running something like 600hp at 9k rpm on track that survives.

Drive both and see what you like best...

For me though, the ONLY factory FWD vehicle I have any interest in is an Integra Type R. And when it comes to aesthetics; while the Fiesta ST is not ugly it's no FRS...

Dang sexy as track and race cars too:

The FR-S also rotates wonderfully about it's center point and is infinitely precise with it's chassis... absolute joy to drive that easily transcends all the little idiosyncrasies and minor issues it has. Would buy again and again...

SnowMongoose wrote: Just wanted to mention that you sons of bitches in this thread have me considering a FiST along with the E46 M3, FRC C5, and Evo 8. Especially since all three are hard (impossible?) to find in stock, non-haggard shape.

If you're interested in the Evo then get a IX. The IX SE is probably the lightest one you can get other than an RS which doesn't even have power windows. The IX has Mivec on the intake cam and a bigger compressor on the turbo. Turbo spools faster and easier to make power out of. If you really want an VIII then just know that '03-'04 have an open diff up front and smaller hotside on the turbo. '05 VIII and '06 IX have same hotside. I think the upside to an VIII is cheaper as well as something about having better gear ratios on the 5-speed. You don't want an MR, transmission isn't that great. They stuffed 6 gears into the same case as the 5-speed. It gets too hot for track guys. Oh and if someone tells you to do a rear sway bar as a first handling mod don't listen to them, you do the rear diff mod first which just consists of restacking the diff plates in the proper order that the rest of the world got for some stupid reason. The factory service manual has the correct order. Practically a free mod.

BRZ/FR-S vs. MX-5 Club PRHT? How much space do you really need?

I know I'll sound crazy saying this, but I would pick the FiST over a twin (stock vs stock). You can't poo poo the FiST because of its FWD layout without driving one in anger. The car is stellar and a total hoot to drive.

All of the chatter about FWD vs. RWD is redundant. For daily driving you won't even notice the difference. For competitive driving. There are differences but driving with those in mind, not so much. When the weather gets fowl, fwd has it all over rwd.

iceracer wrote: All of the chatter about FWD vs. RWD is redundant. For daily driving you won't even notice the difference. For competitive driving. There are differences but driving with those in mind, not so much. When the weather gets fowl, fwd has it all over rwd.

I bet you're the life of the party.

Really? You don't ever kick it a little sideways pulling on to an onramp, or going around a corner? No?

In reply to z31maniac:

I'm not talking just track performance. I'm talking overall livability of the car as a daily. Just sounds like the cars have a lot of issues. Take this thread:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11587

"Yea Des, but that thread is from over 3 years ago."

Oh ok. Well just look at the "Problems, Issues, Recalls" section. Its overflowing with different people coming to complain about very similar problems (a few threads on engine bog, a few similar threads on clutch issues, a few threads on a p0462 code...you get the idea. And this is all on the first page.)

Anyways, I personally love the way they look and drive, but I am just a little hesitant to own one.

A "friend" on mine has been making a similar comparo. For the price of a used FR-S/BRZ, you can buy a new Fiesta ST.

For a wildcard.......also drive a Fiat 500 Abarth I find them to be more entertaining than the Fiesta ST. The Fiesta has a LOT more storage space, but the Abarth has one of the best sounding 4cyl engines on the market. The Abarths can also be found very cheap--brand new.

I'd still pick an FR-S / BR-Z over either, but if you're in a snowy climate--- FWD is handy in the slippery stuff.

late to this thread …. tl;DR … but from the thread title … that's not what we do here … we enable, we don't "talk folk out" of buying cars

Is it me or are used Abarths trading for less than I figured? Our craigslist has one for $11k. It has 74k miles but looks good in the photos.

And according to Edmunds, yeah, they depreciate quickly.

I'm going to come out of left field and say 9th gen Civic Si? I know they don't get much praise around these parts and I even think one of the writers for GRM complained about a plastic bit on the shift knob burning his hand in the Florida sun.......but they get decent MPGs, under 3000lbs in either sedan or coupe form, have 205hp, 174 torques, driver oriented cockpit, nice interior materials, and because the 10th generation is right around the corner you can grab one for a steal right now.

I too am in the market for a cheaper car. I love my STI but with a chump car and another project car in the works no need for a car that can E36 M3 gas faster than I can put it in. I've driven the FR-S and the BR-Z and love how they handle; but, stepping out of my STI and into one of those they just fee gutless, even compared to the Si where at least the engine is engaging and VTEC says BWAHHHHHHHHH. I still need to try the ST cars, the problem is trying to find a Ford dealer that isn't your stereotypical, swindling, greaseball, shenanigans filled, clownhouse that doesn't want your first born child as collateral to test drive any of their performance cars is hard.

You want my honest opinion, just go drive both and then make a decision. Maybe drive each a few times, make those salesmen earn their commission. Drive an Si too you won't be disappoint. Especially from a DD standpoint.