Designing cars before the age of the computer

In reply to pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) :

It's no different now, other than the tools.  Every car design starts inside the designers mind.  Whether it's first sketched on a napkin (Still happens) on vellum with ballpoint (My favorite for early exploration) or on a computer using a digital drawing tablet, the ideas are the product of some creative individual's mind and hands.  Scale models are created after drawings are made over packaging drawings to make sure the people and components fit. (More or less, at this early stage.) Eventually a design or two is chosen to be rendered in full size clay.  In modern days, CAD is created of the design and then machines mill it into the clay.  Further refinements take place by hand and then the results are scanned and the CAD model updated.  

In reply to Appleseed :

Slide rules are an engineering tool, not a creative design tool.  

msterbeau said:

In reply to pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) :

It's no different now, other than the tools.  Every car design starts inside the designers mind.  Whether it's first sketched on a napkin (Still happens) on vellum with ballpoint (My favorite for early exploration) or on a computer using a digital drawing tablet, the ideas are the product of some creative individual's mind and hands.

My favorite example of that is my first internship while I was in school.  In the late 90s the owner/lead engineer of the company had an idea and built it with Lego.  Fast forward and now the company has 100-150 employees and brings in over $25 million a year.  That Lego design is still on his desk

What matters is that you get it out of your brain and into the real, not how you get it out of your brain.

msterbeau said:

In reply to Appleseed :

Slide rules are an engineering tool, not a creative design tool.  

You've never seen a Toyota from the 80's, have you? 

In reply to ShawnG :

Does driving one for a few years count?  :-)

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Yup.  Crayons, clay, pencils, plaster, markers, iPad, whatever.  

Appleseed said:

They used slide rules. It has yet to be equaled. 

You honestly think the gooberment doesn't have a faster and more capable aircraft that's not publicly visible? Really? 

accordionfolder said:

Appleseed said:

They used slide rules. It has yet to be equaled. 

You honestly think the gooberment doesn't have a faster and more capable aircraft that's not publicly visible? Really? 

They don't need to.

Because, you know, space...

In reply to ShawnG :

they are all around here, tons of 80s  Toyota and other import mini trucks in daily use

In reply to ShawnG :

Not true, the time and positioning of satellites is a lot less flexible. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird#Successor

In reply to Junkers :

Ohhhh....  this thread is starting to deliver!

In reply to accordionfolder :

The source that states that is from 94'. Even if it was current, 24 hours is a while but it's not prohibitive to reconnaissance. Once you get more satellites in orbit, that time goes down. To say nothing of deploying drones and the potential for hypersonic UAVs. 

Let me reiterate and prove my point.  The modern school system is nothing more than an indoctrination factory that strips bright children of their natural intuition & talents.  Nearly ALL children are extremely bright in one way or another.

To prove my point, I want any doubters to spend a day observing a few public school classrooms.  Talk to kindergarteners, 2nd graders, 5th graders, high-schoolers.  You will be amazed by what the kindergardeners can tell you, and left scratching your head on how moronically damaged the H.S. seniors are.  In fact, college is only one large pre-school where everybody gets sexually molested.

And then you put these animals in charge of business and country and see what happens.

I invite anyone to have an honest discussion with me here about these things instead of all of your typical defamation, degradation and mocking.

msterbeau said:

In reply to LeftLaneLoser :

I've been an automotive designer for 30+ years.  The idea that the introduction of computers = the fall of design is bulls**t.  At the same time computers became widespread, the industry was addressing the need for greater safety, better aerodynamics and fuel economy, a demand for better quality and with it the rationalization of the manufacturing process, and a tightening of budgets.  All of those impacted the car's aesthetics in significant ways.

There are and always have been many talented designers out there.  The computer is just a tool, and like all tools it can enhance or detract from the creative process depending on the users and those that manage them.  There are a zillion ways that computers enhance design and manufacturing.  I can't imagine any creative designer working now would ever want to go back to using only the old, analog tools.  Nor can I imagine using only those tools making a design better.  

Also, I'm sorry your brain stopped processing information after 1970.

Oh dude. You're gonna feel real dumb here. So, the "computers" comment I made was in reference to how computer aided design tells the creator "sorry, that's not aerodynamic enough". And, the icing on the cake here? I wasn't born until 1985. This wasn't an attack on the designers of our time. It's an attack on the lack of warmth and feeling a computer makes for the design. Computers are cold and calculated. Humans are not. 

In reply to Junkers :

ProDarwin said:

Thanks for finding this gif for me. 

LeftLaneLoser said:

msterbeau said:

In reply to LeftLaneLoser :

I've been an automotive designer for 30+ years.  The idea that the introduction of computers = the fall of design is bulls**t.  At the same time computers became widespread, the industry was addressing the need for greater safety, better aerodynamics and fuel economy, a demand for better quality and with it the rationalization of the manufacturing process, and a tightening of budgets.  All of those impacted the car's aesthetics in significant ways.

There are and always have been many talented designers out there.  The computer is just a tool, and like all tools it can enhance or detract from the creative process depending on the users and those that manage them.  There are a zillion ways that computers enhance design and manufacturing.  I can't imagine any creative designer working now would ever want to go back to using only the old, analog tools.  Nor can I imagine using only those tools making a design better.  

Also, I'm sorry your brain stopped processing information after 1970.

Oh dude. You're gonna feel real dumb here. So, the "computers" comment I made was in reference to how computer aided design tells the creator "sorry, that's not aerodynamic enough". And, the icing on the cake here? I wasn't born until 1985. This wasn't an attack on the designers of our time. It's an attack on the lack of warmth and feeling a computer makes for the design. Computers are cold and calculated. Humans are not. 

Generally I've found that when someone tells someone else "you're gonna feel real dumb here" its the person saying that that ends up looking dumb.

CAD puts out what the designer puts in.  Garbage in, garbage out.
CAD has nothing to do with whether or not a vehicle is aerodynamic enough or not.  As has been stated multiple times in multiple places, that is based on EPA standards and other such outside factors.  

Computers are a tool.  No more, no less.  Any lack of warmth or feeling in a design is up to the designer and the beancounters that ratberkeley the design afterwards.

In reply to Junkers :

I am not offended it. Your post are just so ignorant and clueless I am laughing my head off at you.

LeftLaneLoser said:

msterbeau said:

In reply to LeftLaneLoser :

I've been an automotive designer for 30+ years.  The idea that the introduction of computers = the fall of design is bulls**t.  At the same time computers became widespread, the industry was addressing the need for greater safety, better aerodynamics and fuel economy, a demand for better quality and with it the rationalization of the manufacturing process, and a tightening of budgets.  All of those impacted the car's aesthetics in significant ways.

There are and always have been many talented designers out there.  The computer is just a tool, and like all tools it can enhance or detract from the creative process depending on the users and those that manage them.  There are a zillion ways that computers enhance design and manufacturing.  I can't imagine any creative designer working now would ever want to go back to using only the old, analog tools.  Nor can I imagine using only those tools making a design better.  

Also, I'm sorry your brain stopped processing information after 1970.

Oh dude. You're gonna feel real dumb here. So, the "computers" comment I made was in reference to how computer aided design tells the creator "sorry, that's not aerodynamic enough". And, the icing on the cake here? I wasn't born until 1985. This wasn't an attack on the designers of our time. It's an attack on the lack of warmth and feeling a computer makes for the design. Computers are cold and calculated. Humans are not. 

How to say I have never used CAD without saying I have never used CAD.

93EXCivic said:

In reply to Junkers :

I am not offended it. Your post are just so ignorant and clueless I am laughing my head off at you.

And look at that, it's the tactic of projection displayed in its perfect form.  You seem quite upset.

You all are proving my point to a perfect "T."  You can't debate me at all so you resort to mockery.  My words hurt you, so you feel you have to hurt me.  It's so funny to me too.  I said nothing personal to anyone, but because I criticized something that a few empty people have made into their identity I get a whole load of foolishness.

What was it that hurt you?  Do you play with Star Wars dolls or something?  Do you worship your teachers?  Does moronic music command your attention or trigger fantasies of godhood inside of you?  Who is your authority?  I'd like to know.

Junkers said:

93EXCivic said:

In reply to Junkers :

I am not offended it. Your post are just so ignorant and clueless I am laughing my head off at you.

And look at that, it's the tactic of projection displayed in its perfect form.  You seem quite upset.

You all are proving my point to a perfect "T."  You can't debate me at all so you resort to mockery.  My words hurt you, so you feel you have to hurt me.  It's so funny to me too.  I said nothing personal to anyone, but because I criticized something that a few empty people have made into their identity I get a whole load of foolishness.

What was it that hurt you?  Do you play with Star Wars dolls or something?  Do you worship your teachers?  Does moronic music command your attention or trigger fantasies of godhood inside of you?  Who is your authority?  I'd like to know.

I am enjoying this.

In reply to Junkers :

berkeley man.  That's some good E36 M3 you must be smoking.