Apexcarver wrote: How much weight reduction can you get away with?
Yeah, weight reduction is essentially unlimited. I would plan to really go to town with the hole saw 
I think all of these cars have a lot of weight to remove. Rumor has it that it could be possible to remove as much as 1000 lbs from the Lexus. Don't know if that's really the case, but certainly there's a lot to take out.
Point about weight distribution is well taken too. The SC300 probably have the advantage there.
How is swapping the suspension more expensive than swapping an engine?
What I am getting at is the rules for engine swaps hit you with a $50.00 charge plus any difference in teh engine going in vs going out.
Springs all around are $80.00. I would think that if you went to some KYB GR-2s, you could say that they are major suspension components and get them costed at 10$ per corner. This would be $120.00 added to the mpv for the Mark 8. What is the MPV on the mark 8?
Rob R.
Leafy wrote: Think about tire wear too. I'm thinking you're looking at cars that are too heavy. If I was looking at cars for lechump I'd be trying to find something with an on track weight under 2000 lbs able to fit at least 225 tires on it.
Another good point. When I raced in LeMons in the past it was with a team that ran a super-light (maybe 1800 lbs) car with 205's, IIRC. 24 hrs were no problem at all on a single set. It would be nice if I could get that kind of tire life from a higher-powered car, but I don't have enough experience to say.
My initial guess is that a car with 300 hp weighing 3000 lbs could probably keep a set of tires alive for a full race if the suspension were well tunes (good camber, mostly). But, again, I don't have enough experience with any of these cars to say.
wvumtnbkr wrote: A couple of points. First, the car can be minty brand spanking new looking and driving with brand new everything (OEM). It does not affect the value. 2) Mustangs have done very well in crap can racing. A cougar has won overall a few times. I know of at least 1 v8 mustang that has podiumed a few times 3) V8s are blow-uppy alot in crap can racing. 4) Rotary. Becuase Racecar. (2nd gen RX7 turbo is valued at $400.00. Use the $100 left over for stiff springs (only $80.00 for the entire car). Rob R.
Yeah I agree about the minty comment. You're right that the rules are indifferent to the condition of the car. I mostly put that in there so people wouldn't go crazy saying "there's no way that's a crapcan car!".
I like the rotaries a lot. I didn't really want to go turbo for the heat/complexity issues and that leaves the NA motors and I was mostly thinking about things with more power, just for personal enjoyment reasons. I have been looking at a few FC's anyway though.
Gasoline wrote: I'd consider a plain jane 4.6l Crown Vic motor in the Mustang...
I did too. The way their engine swap rules work out, the DOHC all-aluminum motor is the same budget hit as the Crown Vic engine and it's lighter with ~50(?) more hp, maybe more. It is probably a little more reliable thought, and easier to fix.
Apexcarver wrote: Whatabouta P-71?
Thought about that too. I still LOVE the idea of running a P71 with a manual swap. It's just hard to justify picking one over a thunderbird/cougar which has a better suspension design, lower CG, perhaps less aero drag, etc. Also some of the MN12s are valued lower than a P71 in the rules.
wvumtnbkr wrote: How is swapping the suspension more expensive than swapping an engine?
It's a silly thing in the rules. Non-OE suspension parts are given fixed minimum values.
Non-OE coil springs - $20/corner
Non-OE replacement shock or strut - $25/corner
Non-OE suspension component - $10/component
etc...
At a minimum that's $180 hit for swapping just from air ride to, say, T-bird suspension. It's more if you want fancier shocks or springs, or coilover setup.
Drivetrain swaps are (Value of Parts Put In - Value of Parts Taken Out) + Mounts, Driveshafts, Etc + Swap Charge
Since things like F150 transmissions and the Lincoln mod motor are really cheap on the market (car-part is used for values) and I'm swapping mod-motor for mod-motor there are very few additional parts needed and very little change in value between the stock and swapped drivetrain. Essentially, you pretty much break even on the swap with a few bucks added for the swap charge and the misc parts (clutch, flywheel, p-plate, clutch hydraulics).
That's one of the reasons I didn't consider something like a SHO swapped econo-box (other than the fact that there's a lot of fabrication and wiring issues). The SHO drivetrain is so much more than an econobox one, that the cost of the swap is huge.
Then just buy one already swapped. Not your dault they made junk airbags.
Jaxmadine wrote: Then just buy one already swapped. Not your dault they made junk airbags.
It still counts in the rules. Unlike the GRM Challenge or LeMons, the cars are evaluated based on their "performance value", not what you paid for them. 
Jerks.
Jaxmadine wrote: Jerks.
Hahah. Yeah I agree. 
I don't envy the guys writing the rules though. It's gotta be so hard to come up with a rule set that keeps things cheap, safe, and fair-ish for a wide, wide variety of cars.
JohnyHachi6 wrote: 2. MN12 Thunderbird/Cougar, Lincoln Mk VIII swap, 1997 F150 5-speed transmission, same power/torque as above. Would have between $100 and $0 remaining for other parts depending on what year the original chassis is. Does have a decent independent rear suspension, also has a much larger (18 gal) fuel tank, which can be upgraded to a 22 gal fuel cell under the rules.
What transmission are you talking about? The only 5-speed F-150 option I know of is the M5R2, which has a 5.0 bell housing on it and won't bolt to a mod motor.
Also, the 4.6 DOHC makes all its power up high, and I'm not sure that's the best choice for something as heavy as the MN12. You might be better off looking for a 91-93 5.0 T-Bird and putting a T-5 behind it if you're really committed to this option (which, as much as I love the MN12, I think is a bad idea).
Will wrote: What transmission are you talking about? The only 5-speed F-150 option I know of is the M5R2, which has a 5.0 bell housing on it and won't bolt to a mod motor.
'97-'00 F150 with the 4.6 - had the M5R2 bolted to a SOHC mod motor.
Will wrote: Also, the 4.6 DOHC makes all its power up high, and I'm not sure that's the best choice for something as heavy as the MN12. You might be better off looking for a 91-93 5.0 T-Bird and putting a T-5 behind it if you're really committed to this option (which, as much as I love the MN12, I think is a bad idea).
I don't think there's any problem with an engine making power at high RPM in a racecar, as long as you have the gearing to keep it there. Don't think that will be a problem with a 5 speed and the wide variety of R&P gears available for the 8.8 independent rear in the MN12s.
5.0 would certainly be a nice simple option though.
^ I should make sure I get this right, the trans I'm talking about it the M5OD-R2. I've heard they're quite robust, should bolt right up, and it's cheap.
IIRC all mod motors (4.6, 5.4 V8 and the V10) share the same bellhousing pattern except the really early 4.6, which came in the early 90's crown vics and such.
This is a fascinating rule set. So many options.
SHO Engine (in) +$213
SHO Trans (in) +$312
Festiva Engine (out) -$242
Festiva Trans (out) -$265
+$18
Cost of swap = $18 + $25 trans charge + $50 engine charge = $93
Festiva base value = $150
Looks like that could work out pretty well if you could get the drivetrain installed without spending much. I don't know enough about how the axles/hubs/subframe plus things like the clutch, p-plate, flywheel work out and that could eat up the rest of the budget (and then some) pretty darn quick. But, might still be able to make it work out.
Biggest issue I'd have (other than the potential issues with a complex swap) is the 10 gal fuel tank - that's not gonna last too long with 220 hp.
SpeedyCop ran an SC300 at LeMons at Summit Point this year. I don't recall how well it did or if it had any mechanical difficulties, but I do remember getting passed by it once or twice (us: 1986 e30 325e, not heavily prepped)
Endless possibilities:
What's your math on the Lincoln Mk 8 swap? You posted the OP before the 1.1 revision they released on Saturday. I don't know if the Mustang values changed but 96-97 is now $375 and 98 is $425. That's $425-$475 after the $50 engine swap surcharge. Do the car-part values support an engine change for a paltry $75? And if so, are you left with cut springs and an otherwise bone-stock suspension?
On car part, the mustang motor is worth quite a bit more than the Mk 8 motor and there are literally no other parts needed for the swap, so the only charge is for the swap fee ($50). Brings the MPV to $425, as you said. That leaves $75 for miscellaneous suspension bits, additional cooling, or whatever else. This assumes you start with a V8 5-speed mustang of course.
I will cetainly chump if you want to consider an Atlanta build.
94 Lincoln Mark viii - $500 (Spring city Tn)
Lincoln Mark VIII - 1995 - $800 (Pelham)
Well dang, I never would have thought a Continental motor would be cheaper than a SOHC 4.6. That power/weight ratio certainly beats anything I came up with.
The 1.1 revisions took care of the sleepers I was keeping an eye on. The only one I have left I don't think I want to mess with, so I'll let it out -- 2001-2004 Buick Regal, $350 MPV with a $100 surcharge for the supercharged model. Add $75 for ECU tuning and ??? for a pulley swap. 17.5 gallon tank, should be able to pull a ton of weight out of it. Not sure how much a tune and pulley swap would get you on the power front but I think it'd pull pretty good.
So let me get this right, you pick a car from the list and the value is set by the list? Then all safety equipment is free, and all upgrades are set in value?
In reply to moparman76_69:
Mostly. For swaps, engine, trans and differential prices are set using the lowest 10 available "A-rated" parts on car-part.com.
Performance parts have a minimum value set. If you bring something fancy the tech guys will add more value.
If your car isn't on the list, you send in your car info and they assign your car a value based on market value, weight, hp, fuel tank size etc, which you can then appeal if you really feel like it.
Any performance parts swapped that aren't on their list get quoted from a common parts store or car-part.com. Anything you make with simple tools is assigned value based on the materials.
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