NOT for me, but for someone I know. E90 BMW M3 vs. B8 Audi S4? Daily driver, business limo, and track day vehicle. Pros & Cons. GO!
Thanks!
NOT for me, but for someone I know. E90 BMW M3 vs. B8 Audi S4? Daily driver, business limo, and track day vehicle. Pros & Cons. GO!
Thanks!
Hmm, lightweight RWD portable drift machine versus heavy AWD understeer machine that will price you out of your house in maintenance costs?
Yeah, go for the Audi. What's the worst that could happen?
Seriously though, I'll just leave this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaZExdTHHjY
Must be MANUAL transmission with 3 pedals. No flappy paddle or slush boxes.
carbon wrote:
Nothing like a bucket of warm wallpaper paste to drive around in.
Ugh, here come the VAG haters! Allow me to retort, since I just went through this exact decision a few months ago.
Ok, #1 remember that I live in Denver, so having a car that's absolutely bomb proof in winter weather driving is a nice thing.
I have owned RWD cars as my DD in the past here, but I've always had an old Jeep to drive up in the mtns to go skiing, or take to work in the event of a bad storm. My wife has since forced me to sell the Jeep, so I don't have that in my back pocket anymore.
I extensively drove both cars. The M3 handles well, had a nice interior (much better than previous M3's) and makes great V8 sounds. Healthy aftermarket. The early E90 M3's still had rod bearing issues and unlike the E46's, BMW hasn't recalled them. I was underwhelmed with the power output, the motor isn't very torquey and with the hit in HP due to altitude, the car wasn't very snappy. As with all BMW's, the options are all seperate, including somethings like fold down rear seats, which you'd think are standard. That can make finding exactly what you want a bit of a chore.
The Audi interior is like all other Audi interiors, simply the best in the biz. Controls are where they should be, the materials are top notch, very comfortable. The handling is easily as good as the BMW, although my car has the sport rear diff, which makes a huge difference on laying the power down in a corner. The motor in the S4 is a gem, very torquey, extremely snappy throttle response and up here at altitude, is more than a match for the M3, even though it's got 80ish less HP. Bear in mind you can add a tune and a pulley to this motor and gain ~150hp, which leads to a massive annihilation of the M3 vis a vis motor performance. Audi significantly ham strung this motor so it wouldn't run away from the RS4, even a simple tune adds ~100hp and makes the S4 perform on the same level as the RS4. MPG (if you care) is significantly better than the M3 as well. The AWD makes the car bomb proof in any kind of winter inclement driving where the M3 (even with snow tires) will be sitting in your garage.
Ok, obviously I bought the S4 and I'm a huge fan of it. It's seriously one of the better cars that Audi has built in a long time. I do wish Audi had brough the avant version over though. I don't like how I have to put the steering into dynamic to make it feel the way I want, but at least that's adjustable.
If I still had my Jeep or I lived in So Cal, I would've given the M3 more thought as it's transition responses are very nice. You do get more bang for the buck with the Audi, I was able to find a 3 year newer Audi for the same cost as the BMW. The power available with the tune/pulley is no joke for the Audi, I just had that done to my S4 yesterday and the car is a beast now.
Just about 40k miles on mine, no issues at all, just normal maintenance. The only fault I've seen is some of the thermostats have been failing as they're a plastic piece that's mounted under the supercharger, so the heat is adversely affecting them. Other than that, this motor seems to be extremely stout.
docwyte wrote: Ugh, here come the VAG haters!
There's a reason for the hatred.
turboswede wrote:docwyte wrote: Ugh, here come the VAG haters!There's a reason for the hatred.
QFT, plus what the heck does living at altitude have to do with CGLockRacer's post?....he lives in Michigan. docwyte needs to take the chill pill, or maybe find that local weed dispensary again.
Had an Audi. Apocalypse did not come.
I would say the S4 if I had to choose between those two.
I still have a soft spot for the B5 2.7t
yamaha wrote:turboswede wrote:QFT, plus what the heck does living at altitude have to do with CGLockRacer's post?....he lives in Michigan. docwyte needs to take the chill pill, or maybe find that local weed dispensary again.docwyte wrote: Ugh, here come the VAG haters!There's a reason for the hatred.
It snows in Michigan. Points for the AWD Audi.
Snow tires on BMW. Points denied.
AWD is a lot of metal, lost fuel economy, and maintenance to slug around 100% of the time based on the fear you might need more traction .000001% of the time.
Flynlow wrote: Snow tires on BMW. Points denied. AWD is a lot of metal, lost fuel economy, and maintenance to slug around 100% of the time based on the fear you might need more traction .000001% of the time.
Respectfully disagree, having done a winter with an E46 ZHP on Blizzaks. It was mostly capable, a lot of fun, but nowhere near as unstoppable as an AWD car. And if the snow is more than about 3-4" deep, forget it, you're getting stuck, winter tires or not. Neither of these cars has much ground clearance.
I've made this choice in the past. When we bought my wife's Taurus X in 2008, we saved $2500 or so by getting the FWD version instead of AWD, and gained a whole MPG on the freeway, too. It's false economy. The first time it snowed, the factory Pirellis revealed themselves to be utter E36 M3, so I dropped $1000 on a set of Michelin X-Ice tires and spare wheels. And I've been storing and swapping those things off and on for 6 winters now. We should have bought the AWD version. It would also be worth more in resale value. I'm a firm believer in winter tires on certain vehicles, but all things being equal, AWD will always beat RWD in bad weather.
In reply to Tom_Spangler:
I think you absolutely made the right choice for your usage, for the OP's description of use, or my general use, I don't need to be unstoppable in the snow. I just need to get home. I'd rather an m3 for track days and normal usage, including working on the vehicle, and I bet snow tires would get the car through the few days a year they're needed just fine. Even in Michigan, there might be 3-4 feet of snow on the ground, but the roads eventually get cleared up til the next storm.
quattro FTW:
Regarding altitude and forced induction, the B8 is a positive displacement supercharger, they lose power at altitude in the same fashion as a naturally aspirated motor. Turbo cars are the ones that can compensate for altitude by running more boost.
Maintenance costs? Neither of these is cheap, the Audi isn't substantially worse than an E90.
I've owned two S4s, a B5 sedan for 7 years and a B6 Avant for 8. I've driven a B8, and yes, it makes more power than the V8 in my B6, but going to a V6 is a bit of a letdown after the V8, it just doesn't sound the same. Audi's M3 competitor is really the RS4 these days, and unfortunately the B8 RS4 never came here. IMHO the E90 wins over the B8 on the motor front. It's probably going to cost more, though.
No question Audi wins on the interior front, plus their MMI system is much, much better than iDrive.
As for the arguments about AWD being a lot of weight to carry around for something you only use in the winter, that's true -- if you buy a BMW 335xi or the like. BMW treats AWD as being the thing you stick on a sedan to sell it to someone who really wanted an SUV, but Audi approaches quattro as being the performance option.
The replacement for my B6 will almost certainly be another Audi -- be it a B8, B9, or maybe a C7 S6.
On the original question:
In reply to Tom_Spangler:
MFWD > AWD
In most conditions the E90 M3 is a fantastic machine. They do take to the track very well (despite their weight) and that V8 makes one of the best sounds out of ANY engine EVER. It really sounds that good at full wail--- it's just awesome.
For daily duty, I can see the Audi being a bit more user friendly (better infotainment) and of course, better in the snow and ice.
The big drawback for the BMW is the absolutely horrid gas mileage----- around 14mpg and it drinks premium. That was always a huge turnoff for me....although the engine is a gem. All previous M3s had been fun, track-ready, and extremely practical. The V8 one ticks all my boxes, but it's drunken sailor thirst kinda ruins it for me.
I'd steer away from either if they are out of warranty. Both are extremely complex machines that can get costly if things go wrong.
If you don't care about getting around in Michigan during the winter, buy a Ferrari. Yes, that's a ridiculous statement to make, just the same that an M3 with snow tires is as good as the S4 with snow tires will be.
Yes, the S4 has a PD blower, but it's got an electronically controlled wastegate, so it can compensate for altitude the way a turbo can.
I mentioned I was at altitude because it makes a HUGE difference in how the cars feel, at sea level the M3 would've had +80hp and that might've pushed me over the edge as far as choosing it vs the S4. Still can't add 150hp to the M3 the way you can on the S4 though.
I've put 100's of thousands of trouble free miles on VAG cars. You guys buy POS neglected VAG cars then are surprised they need work. These cars don't suffer fools, if you maintain them, they're fantastic, neglected they punish you.
docwyte wrote: Yes, that's a ridiculous statement to make, just the same that an M3 with snow tires is as good as the S4 with snow tires will be.
Who said that? I said snow tires will get me home safely, I didn't say as good. Do you guys do all your performance/fun driving in the snow? Where do you live that it's snowy all the time? Arctic circle?
turboswede wrote:carbon wrote:Nothing like a bucket of warm wallpaper paste to drive around in.
Are you commenting because you've driven one or because you assume the brand is incapable of building a viable performance/ driver's car? Every review Ive read and conversation Ive had with an owner indicates that if anything they're a little stiff and track focused. The fact that they are paddle only may disqualify them from this list but they still turn identical lap times to the m car and will absolutely out perform either german car in terms of long term reliability
As far as rwd vs awd goes, Im firmly in the rwd camp. I always make it where I'm going in my IS on nokian hakka Rs (despite massachsetts winters) and don't mind (I actually like) steering a little more during slippery weather if it means I don't have to understeer my way to wherever I go whenever I go there and carry around a whole bunch of rotational/ unsprung weight that I don't need.
turboswede wrote:docwyte wrote: Ugh, here come the VAG haters!There's a reason for the hatred.
It's funny that people think there isn't. There is plenty of evidence and logic behind VAG hate. PLENTY. Unrelenting VAG fanboys aside even.
Because no GRM thread is complete without someone posting an option not-on-the-list I'll say Porsche 997 Carrera 4S.
It's a VAG product so ... close family ;)
In all honesty as much of a fanboy of BMW I have always been... the E90 M3 leaves me cold. In fact, the whole family is just not cutting it to me. It's just not good looking enough to overcome it's price/weight/performance gap to the 335 with a tune and the 335 isn't good looking enough as it is. Performance and driving dynamics are still great but not better than older or newer models which have the whole package (IMO). The newest F series cars are great looking and, word has it, phenomenal performers too so ... do that. Otherwise... the Audi interior is better. It looks better. It's cheaper. Get the extended warranty and give it a shot.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Because no GRM thread is complete without someone posting an option not-on-the-list I'll say Porsche 997 Carrera 4S. It's a VAG product so ... close family ;) In all honesty as much of a fanboy of BMW I have always been... the E90 M3 leaves me cold. In fact, the whole family is just not cutting it to me. It's just not good looking enough to overcome it's price/weight/performance gap to the 335 with a tune and the 335 isn't good looking enough as it is. Performance and driving dynamics are still great but not better than older or newer models which have the whole package (IMO). The newest F series cars are great looking and, word has it, phenomenal performers too so ... do that. Otherwise... the Audi interior is better. It looks better. It's cheaper. Get the extended warranty and give it a shot.
+1 on the E90 M3 not being worth it over the 335. I love the E46 M3 and they look so much better than the non M cars to be worth it.
Also - VAG hate has lots of truth behind it, we had a 2004 A4 that we maintained to the book. Both dealer and NDT shop with a great rep. Still went thru coil packs and when we sold it at just over 100k miles, three of the four window regulators had crapped out.
Still, we are looking at another A4 in the next few months. We want awd, seems BMW no longer offers a third pedal with the 335x.
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