EFI? can it be this easy?

and I've been recently contemplating how I might be able to run a BMW v12 on carbs (the easy part) and 'more old-school' ignition (might be harder).

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=49073

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=53451

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=38517

More found here: http://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Jaguar+site:www.msextra.com

Looks like most are running a single MegaSquirt with batch fired injectors (one injector driver per engine bank) and either leveraging the stock ignition or adding a 36-1 crank trigger wheel and using wasted spark ignition.

To do sequential, you'd have to run two MegaSquirt units in parallel, the MS3Pro can communicate with each other via CAN. Sequential ignition requires a cam angle sensor on top of the crank angle sensor.

Join the MSExtra forum, search around and ask some of the other Jag owners about their setups.

As for tuning, obviously you'd start with regular fuel, get the initial start setting correct along with the base fuel map and any other issues sorted and then convert to alcohol.

With EFI you don't need to worry about poor running or idle at the expense of higher RPM performance. Leveraging the AutoTune feature in TunerStudio will help smooth out the fuel map as you drive based on values from the oxygen sensor.

In reply to Robbie: Jaguar V12 has a distributor so it's easy.. older cars had carbs and it's straight forward to switch to cut the face off a FI manifold and weld on a face plate that will accept carbs..(either SU's or Stromberg's)

In reply to Stefan (Not Bruce): That is the site I started doing the research on Mega Squirt when I considered using one to provide fueling to run Turbo's. A $85 FMU turned out to be simpler and worked fine. I know there are expensive/complex ways to get things done. Since all of life is a trade off I've chosen not to go the expensive complex way.. I wonder how far off I'll be just selecting the right size injectors?

In reply to frenchyd:

The ECU will be monitoring the Oxygen sensor and running E85 on an ECU that doesn't have a fuel type sensor or an ECU with the approriate coding to switch the fuel map will cause the engine to run very poorly as it tries desperately to get the oxygen sensor to read closer to 14:1.

So do it correctly or don't do it at all. That doesn't mean only MegaSquirt, but that is an option. I've pointed out above, the conversion to MegaSquirt has been successful on the Jag V12, so the details are available to do the conversion. Thus, allowing you to have a potentially good starting point to build towards E85 use.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to frenchyd: Well... for a programmable EFI system, instead of tricking it, you just change the calibration. That seems pretty easy to me. However the Jaguar system doesn't have an access port to program. I thought briefly of using two Computers from 6 cylinder GM SUV's (Trailblazer/Envoy etc..) but realized that without crank triggers I doubted they would work..

Robbie wrote: and I've been recently contemplating how I might be able to run a BMW v12 on carbs (the easy part) and 'more old-school' ignition (might be harder).

MegaJolt and 36-1 crank trigger.

BMW V12 is just two BMW I6 engines, so that might provide some options for you as well.

Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: In reply to frenchyd: The ECU will be monitoring the Oxygen sensor and running E85 on an ECU that doesn't have a fuel type sensor or an ECU with the approriate coding to switch the fuel map will cause the engine to run very poorly as it tries desperately to get the oxygen sensor to read closer to 14:1. So do it correctly or don't do it at all. That doesn't mean only MegaSquirt, but that is an option. I've pointed out above, the conversion to MegaSquirt has been successful on the Jag V12, so the details are available to do the conversion. Thus, allowing you to have a potentially good starting point to build towards E85 use.

I know the earliest Jag/Bosch systems didn't have oxygen sensors.. I'll do a little research and be back in a few minutes to see if and when Jaguar put O2 sensors in

Larger injectors could get you pretty close on the steady state fueling. But there are several other things you would also need to tweak.

• Startup fueling. Methanol doesn't evaporate as well as gasoline on a cold engine, requiring more fuel on startup and while the engine is cold.

• Acceleration enrichment. Same effect here; you'll need proportionally more fuel to compensate for the extra fuel puddling.

• Spark timing. It's totally different due to different burn rates.

In reply to MadScientistMatt: Remember, we are talking about racing.. By using the cold start injector plumbed to gas I can eliminate any start up issues.. a pint should prove sufficient. Changing spark timing is simple. It has a distributor.. I have three of the advance curves available and access to two more.. Grind or weld a little on the cam and add or subtract weight is child's play.. finding the right combination of springs maybe a little more difficult But I have a spring tension gauge, so no bother really. And when everything seems right I have a nice old Sun Distributor machine to spin it up and confirm everything..

In reply to Stefan (Not Bruce): the early D Jetronic (Bosch) 1975-1980 didn't have it and wasn't really a computer.. while the 1980-86 6CU was actually a computer it was analog not digital.. same with the 8CU The 16 CU had the first micro processor but no O2 sensor.. when the 26CU came out it had the first EPROM Chip and the ability to run on feedback from an O2 sensor.. same with the last 36CU..

Since this is going into a race car and not going to be street driven do I even want the later systems? Wouldn't it be easier to use the earlier systems that work rude and crude and get enough alcohol in so it doesn't get lean? I can swap distributors around and still get whatever advance curve works best for alcohol..

frenchyd wrote: In reply to MadScientistMatt: Remember, we are talking about racing.. By using the cold start injector plumbed to gas I can eliminate any start up issues.. a pint should prove sufficient. Changing spark timing is simple. It has a distributor.. I have three of the advance curves available and access to two more.. Grind or weld a little on the cam and add or subtract weight is child's play.. finding the right combination of springs maybe a little more difficult But I have a spring tension gauge, so no bother really. And when everything seems right I have a nice old Sun Distributor machine to spin it up and confirm everything..

That, vs using a key board to type in a new spark map.

Hmmm... which to choose.

In reply to alfadriver:

A keyboard assumes the engine in question has the required crank triggers Lyons outlined the V12 in the 1950s Started building it in the 60s and sold the first one in 1971 (the last in 1997,they sold 2) Some years less than 1000 were made I think the most they ever made in a year was about 6000

In reply to frenchyd:

Not entirely sure what the production numbers have to do with adding programmable ignition.

Adding a trigger wheel is relatively easy to do on the main crank pulley and has been accomplished by a great many people using a wide array of tooling and designs.

You could even convert the distributor to a magnetic or optical pickup and drive the ignition system off of that. It just isn't quite as good as using a crank-mounted trigger wheel.

In reply to frenchyd:

It's been done.

Just because you have not done it, does not mean your engine can't be MegaSquirted.

You obviously have a great deal of experience in things most of us do not have. But you have come to a forum with a great deal of knowledge and experience in computer tuning, particularly MegaSquirt, and asked what is "easy".

MegaSquirt is easy. But it's a knowledge base and a learning curve that you have not been through yet, so it is outside your comfort zone. Honestly, much of what you consider "easy" is grossly outside the comfort zone of most of the members on this board.

One of the guys you've been quick to knock down is a key partner in DIY Autotune- he literally wrote the book on MegaSquirt, and he most certainly knows how to build a race car, and how to MegaSquirt your Jag.

This will eventually be your decision, and you will have to choose how you'd like to build it. You can do it your way and get a great deal of applause from us in the peanut gallery who have no idea what you are doing or why you would do it that way, or you can take advice from people with a different knowledge base than you have and utilize it.

You might find you like it!

frenchyd wrote: In reply to alfadriver: A keyboard assumes the engine in question has the required crank triggers Lyons outlined the V12 in the 1950s Started building it in the 60s and sold the first one in 1971 (the last in 1997,they sold 2) Some years less than 1000 were made I think the most they ever made in a year was about 6000

In addition to what Stefan points out that it's not that hard to put a trigger wheel on your car, it's interesting that you are happy to choose all of the variables and machining and whatnot that is involved with carbs and distributors but are not with numbers on a computer.

The reality is they are the exact same thing. You cut the weights so that the advance curve gives you what you want- the computer does that via a few tables and numbers. You want to adjust the carb jets- the computer does that via a few tables and numbers.

Both require a solid base line, and both need to deliver what they are asking for. You set the base timing on a distributor, one programs the based timing and makes sure it's delivered on a computer. You find the right carbs, and make a logical guess of the jets, the computer requires a reasonable base.

What I see as the massive difference- if you are at the track and think you need to make an adjustment- it's a matter of typing vs. taking things apart.

FWIW, I put EFI onto a '78 Alfa motor- which didn't have a trigger wheel. If you can cut and modify a distributor, putting a trigger wheel on should be like falling off a log.

But I'll end there. For your original question- I know little about 70's era computers. I know quite a bit about modern ones.

I think Alfa has nailed an important point... You may be able to accomplish these things mechanically (and I AM impressed), but you can't make future adjustments.

Once you learn computer tuning, you can continue to make adjustments. You can adjust for weather conditions, track conditions, humidity, fuel type, air density. You can have street tunes and race tunes, you can have drag racing tunes and autocross tunes. You can change tire sizes, and adjust your torque curve. You can set the timing to adjust differently at different points in the rpm range, or to advance when boost kicks in, or nitrous fires. You can program for launch control, or anti-lag. You can change on the fly from the seat, or even have a crew member make adjustments wirelessly from outside the car.

Racing is the PERFECT environment for electronically tuneable EFI. Racing is the BEST reason to use a computer for tuning.

I had my MS 1.01 box on eight different engines. Same computer, same wiring harness, same injectors. Stock GSL-SE, peripheral port 12A, street port 13BT, half bridge 13BT, street port 6-port 13B, 1/3rd-bridge GSL-SE, 2/3rd-bridge GSL-SE, and the current 4-port 13B (which is, of course, bridge ported, because I learned my lesson the two times I went back to street ports). If you don't speak rotary, this encompasses engines across the spectrum from completely stock to 2 inches of vacuum at a rough 1500rpm idle and your shiftpoint is when the 10k tach's needle bounces off the stop.

Once you're set up with the hardware, tuning is free except for time, which you were going to spend anyway, and it takes actually very little time to tune a computer once you're set up for it.

If you want to stick with oe double the injector size and do fine tuning via fuel pressure. That is the way I would go if I didn't have access to a shelf full of standalone engine controllers.

I don't see the v12 being too hard. I got a 72 euro merc v8 running in 14 minutes after wiring was done and I had never seen one before that project. You don't need 12 fuel outputs unless you need sequential, and if racecar then its less important.

Again if you want to give ms a shot there's a few distributors posting in this thread (hint)

Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: In reply to frenchyd: Not entirely sure what the production numbers have to do with adding programmable ignition.

I'm cheap and looking for junkyard sourced parts is my main method of getting more for less. Production numbers tell me how many were made and my chances of finding what I need.

SVreX wrote: In reply to frenchyd: It's been done. Just because you have not done it, does not mean your engine can't be MegaSquirted. You obviously have a great deal of experience in things most of us do not have. But you have come to a forum with a great deal of knowledge and experience in computer tuning, particularly MegaSquirt, and asked what is "easy". MegaSquirt is easy. But it's a knowledge base and a learning curve that you have not been through yet, so it is outside your comfort zone. Honestly, much of what you consider "easy" is grossly outside the comfort zone of most of the members on this board. One of the guys you've been quick to knock down is a key partner in DIY Autotune- he literally wrote the book on MegaSquirt, and he most certainly knows how to build a race car, and how to MegaSquirt your Jag. This will eventually be your decision, and you will have to choose how you'd like to build it. You can do it your way and get a great deal of applause from us in the peanut gallery who have no idea what you are doing or why you would do it that way, or you can take advice from people with a different knowledge base than you have and utilize it. You might find you like it!

You make a great deal of sense.. It's really fear that holds me back. I'm old (67) so computers don't come easy. Car computers (other than plugging in or unplugging them) would be entirely new area so clearly I need some hand holding.

Untill I find someone to do that hand holding and walk me through my first one I'm forced to use what is within my ability to work with. It's a big step that I no longer want to cut a EFI manifold off and weld a plate to use Stromberg Carbs.

Knurled wrote: Once you're set up with the hardware, tuning is free except for time, which you were going to spend anyway, and it takes actually very little time to tune a computer once you're set up for it.

You hit the nail on the head, exactly why I'm willing to learn more about computers.. I don't mind chucking a S.U. needle into a lathe and make the carb do what I want it to do.. but who is going to growl at me, call me stupid, and show me that I should be in this box rather than that one? Or need to double click etc.. I should have had a son instead of two daughters.. My luck, he'd be into botany or chemistry instead of weird ship

alfadriver wrote:

frenchyd wrote: In reply to alfadriver: A keyboard assumes the engine in question has the required crank triggers Lyons outlined the V12 in the 1950s Started building it in the 60s and sold the first one in 1971 (the last in 1997,they sold 2) Some years less than 1000 were made I think the most they ever made in a year was about 6000

In addition to what Stefan points out that it's not that hard to put a trigger wheel on your car, it's interesting that you are happy to choose all of the variables and machining and whatnot that is involved with carbs and distributors but are not with numbers on a computer. The reality is they are the exact same thing. You cut the weights so that the advance curve gives you what you want- the computer does that via a few tables and numbers. You want to adjust the carb jets- the computer does that via a few tables and numbers. Both require a solid base line, and both need to deliver what they are asking for. You set the base timing on a distributor, one programs the based timing and makes sure it's delivered on a computer. You find the right carbs, and make a logical guess of the jets, the computer requires a reasonable base. What I see as the massive difference- if you are at the track and think you need to make an adjustment- it's a matter of typing vs. taking things apart. FWIW, I put EFI onto a '78 Alfa motor- which didn't have a trigger wheel. If you can cut and modify a distributor, putting a trigger wheel on should be like falling off a log. But I'll end there. For your original question- I know little about 70's era computers. I know quite a bit about modern ones.

Thank you for the encouragement.. Clearly you are right..

Paul_VR6 wrote: If you want to stick with oe double the injector size and do fine tuning via fuel pressure. That is the way I would go if I didn't have access to a shelf full of standalone engine controllers. I don't see the v12 being too hard. I got a 72 euro merc v8 running in 14 minutes after wiring was done and I had never seen one before that project. You don't need 12 fuel outputs unless you need sequential, and if racecar then its less important. Again if you want to give ms a shot there's a few distributors posting in this thread (hint)

We are in agreement there.. A V12 is just a V8 with extra parts to a computer.. and a V8 is just two 4 cylinders.
All I need to do is find someone who is willing to dope slap an old guy and explain,... now double click on the right side of the mouse and you'll have it!

I am willing to slap you around but only for money.