Electronic "Driver's Aids"

stuart in mn wrote:

Jensenman wrote: I agree; it's like manual transmissions. Most school buses have automatic transmissions because there are so few people nowadays who know how to properly operate a manual transmission.

Last week I rode in a vintage public transit bus (it was a Mack, built in 1948 I believe.) The thing had manual steering, along with a manual shift crash box with no clutch pedal. Apparently there was some sort of centrifugal clutch or torque converter in the thing; the driver had to do some fancy work with the gas pedal and shift lever to get from one gear to the next without a lot of grinding. He was getting a real workout turning corners, too - there's a reason old buses had giant steering wheels.

In commecial vehicles, especially in urban areas, I though P/s and auto boxes were more like labor saving devices. kind of like a jack hammer replacing the pick ax. Sure, you could do the job without them, but it's nice not to be exhausted when you leave work. I've never driven anything as old as that Mack, but some of the later GMs with no power steering are a handful.

I understand what you're saying but it goes directly against everything I have learned about racing to slam on the brakes and turn the wheel;the string that attaches my feet to the hand that is on the outside of the turn will snap .

There is an imaginary Nazi in the passenger seat that whips me with a riding crop whenever I break a cardinal rule like that.

"Gehorchen der reibung kreis!" WHOP,WHOP,WHOP

Yea i'm going to have to agree that abs can really help when understood since it allows you to break faster in a straight line when conditions worsen, can be avoided in the dry and allows you to turn when braking. It's like anything on a car, you have to learn how it works if you plan to use it well. I know how my engine works so i can keep it running better, i know what maintenance it needs so it's safe and i know how the abs works and how to use it to my advantage.

Tractions control is for people who need it and it should be able to be turned off when wanted. Active yaw and all that may take some of skill out off driving but they are designed so car maker A has a faster car on paper than car maker B. For the engineers it's a challenge, for the marketing it's just something to sell cheap cars.

I'll be honest, I love the stability control/traction control/ABS that's on the M3 in daily driving, and I love how I can confidently hand the keys over to my wife even when it's slick out. It's not intrusive when you're sane, and it helps if you hit the unexpected.

We both turn it off before auto-xing.

Reading the article, it sounds to me like BMW is using ABS to fix a poorly engineered braking system. If the fronts are that easy to lock w/o ABS, they need to work on the system.

My Ford van has ABS, and Fords system in 97 sucks. The only good thing about it is it is very unobtrusive. When it does kick in the van feels like it stops slowing down. I would rather have the breaks lock and modulate them myself. As far as steering out of a situation or swerving to miss something, that is one thing you really don't want to do in a full size van. Top heavy is an understatement. They will land on their sides. The last deer to run out in front of me got hit, swerving to miss it was a recipe for disaster.

My wife's 99 Chevy Venture has ABS and TCS. Both systems work well. The TCS does a good job of eliminating wheel spin without killing acceleration. The system also reacts fast and resets to WOT fast with very little delay. My daughter took the Street Survival School in it, and even the instructor could not get it to over or under steer on a skid pad wet with soap and water. Even with ABS it breaks aggressively in the wet or dry. That school cost me a set of tires because even with both system on she destroyed them. It was worth every penny.

That said, I would rather not have any "electronic nannies" in a autocross car. If the car is constantly correcting your driving you will never learn to do it yourself. Autocrossing is about learning your limits and the cars limits, not the computers limits. Even F1 figured this out and banned most traction systems. The racing is much better when it's not computer against computer. I guess if all you want is the trophy then ABS and TCS are a plus. I would rather be able to say I beat you than my car's "electronic nannies" beat you.

Apexcarver wrote: i like ABS because it prevents me from flatspotting my Rcomps, I hate it when i get feedback at inopportune time on course though. it rarely happens though, so i dont think I am going to disable it. none of my current vehicles have anything beyond ABS.

Cobras do have some of the least intrusive ABS systems. I drove a '04 impreza RS before my cobra, the abs is so hyperactive it's almost unsafe when driving the car at the limit.

If we were all perfectly alert driving to work (myself included), totally in tune with the road conditions, weather, etc, then we could do with less electronic nannies.

Fact is, none of us are so great as we like to believe. All of us miss cues, overdrive, and other stupid things. So having those electronic nannies does a lot to keep us alive in spite of ourselves.

Driving on a track is very different from driving on a public road. What I need or want for one does not necessarily match up with what I need or want for the other.