Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:I rarely flush, simply because I'm pretty religious about my maintenance intervals. I had a Caddy 390 that went 560k without a flush (that I know of) and had zero sludge under the valve covers when I did gaskets. When I DO flush, I use a quart of diesel.
I am reminded that the Model T or Model A had a recommendation that at set intervals you drain the oil out and fill with kerosene then run it for a set amount of time to clean the engine.
Minor tangent.
Grandpa used to tell me that he would drain the water and put kerosene in the radiator for the winter on his Model A. I'll bet that smelled annoying.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
How the heck did the hoses survive?
I assume they were natural rubber, being early 1900s.
They probably didn't, but many of them were a short hose connector at the neck and the radiator with copper tubing between.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
I don't disagree at all, oil is pretty packed with detergents anyway
When I saw the title my first thought was "How'd you get the beans above the frank?"
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
The ATF may get some sludge out, but not because it has more detergent. The difference is where the sludge ends up. With ATF, it ends up in the filter where you can see it. With engine oil, it stays suspended in the oil and comes out the drain hole.Panther, you are correct about detergents and suspension. It's not like soap, it has to do with keeping contaminants in suspension, which only lends credence to what I was saying. ATF doesn't need nearly as many detergents as engine oil. A transmission offers the potential for tiny amounts of condensation, scrubbed-off particulates (paper) from the clutches, and metal shavings. Those things shouldn't be in suspension. You want them to fall into the pan. The filter on an automatic transmission isn't much of a filter, more of a screen that is there to protect the pump and prevent clogs in the nooks and crannies of the hydraulic circuits.
I hope im not gonna come off wrong, cause I truly do value your opinion. But don't those two paragraphs disagree with each other? Since ATF has less detergents, less particles would remain in suspension, to show up on the filter media... the more detergent would put more deposits on the filter media, cause they didn't drop out.
I think ATF is a better cleaner than engine oil, but I do not believe it is because of the detergent packages - because they are not there to clean. I don't know why ATF cleans better; and I am NOT advocating its use as a engine flush. Neither light oil or ATF are the best products for that. Just discussing finer points than we really need to on this thread. For the knowledge.
I also don't think yor thoughts on how the myth startd are correct, since it pre dates both of us. Back then, AT's were just starting to come out, and ATF did not stay red looking! I wa prolly 28 years old before I drained fluid out of a car and it was still red. Don't know how it did start, but...
I heard yeas ago (prolly 30 or more) that kerosene, although a good cleaner, was not good as a flush, because it would "eat" white metal. Like babbit. No clue if that is true
To Bob (the other oil guy) zilla, and Curtis.
Being a fan of synthetic oil, but not the price, I was using Wallys full synthetic, till I read that companies can advertise their oil as "full synthetic" even if it started as dyno base stock, as long as it is refined enough to meet the same standards as synthetic oil that started from synthetic base stocks (very few of those brands today) I don't know if this is true, and to the end user it may not matter, but if true, I don't like the false advertising aspect of it, even if it did become legal.
Wow, thats a lot of synthetic's in one question!!!
In reply to 03Panther :
Synthetic oil comes out of the ground, too.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I don't suppose you'd care to explain just a wee bit better would you?
In reply to Peabody :
Thanks. That is probably where what I had heard came from. I'll have to read that closer.
So to our oil industry guys, whats (beside price and marketing) is the difference in Molble 1 full, and Wally's full?
So the answer is: not much. Mobil 1 standard stuff is highly refined petroleum with additives to make it "synthetic", the same as the wally world stuff. In fact a lot of "synthetic" products are just that, highly refined and additized to be comparable to the actual synthetic products. Manufacturers like Amsoil, Red line and some others use the better synthetic base stocks for their premium fluids (which is why they cost more) and are a "true synthetic".
Now, with that said, unless you're running a k-swapped Miata and running into 260* oil temps on track, Wally world, cheap mobil1, or any other myriad of synthetic choices will be perfectly fine. I've got 5 years of UOA on multiple vehicles running extended drains on the wally world synthetic and OE filters. The stuff is great, especially for the price ($17.97/5 qt jug).
Using UOA to try and determine if the oil is using a highly refined petroleum or true synthetic, look at the starting Oxidation values. Most synthetic base stock fluids cause interference on the FTIR giving higher starting values. My wally world products start around 8-15 where the Amsoil Signature series starts 40-50.
You are correct that "synthetic" is a marketing lie.
The way oils are tested to be synthetic is via a pathetic test for purity. If it contains less than X% of carbons outside a certain range, AND contains fewer than Y% impurities, it must be synthetic. The way the ASTM test is worded, if it passes the test it can be called synthetic even if it's origin is from crude oil. Companies quickly tweaked their hydrocarbon cracking to easily pass the test, so most OTC brand name synthetics come from underground, not a lab. This includes oils like Valvoline, Pennzoil, Castrol, Quaker State, store brands, and other common names. Oils that (at least as of a few years ago) are still actually made in a lab and are actually synthetically made include Mobil1, and the MLM specialty brands like Redline, Royal Purple, and Amsoil.
The real marketing genius is marketing all the other fluids as synthetic. Synthetic brake fluid? I have even seen synthetic anti freeze. Umm... yeah. Pretty sure regular glycols don't come from crude oil, but great marketing.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
SOME Mobil1 formulas. Their cheaper versions are the same as the rest.
03Panther said:So to our oil industry guys, whats (beside price and marketing) is the difference in Molble 1 full, and Wally's full?
I'm not an oil industry guy, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Just a car nerd.
As of a few years ago, Mobil1 was still a true, manufactured-above-ground synthetic oil. Wally's is refined crude oil that is likely Quaker State or Pennzoil in their own bottle. Nearly every store-brand oil across the country is either Quaker State or Pennzoil.
Important to note... nearly all crude base oil stock in the US (lubricating oil without the additives to make it whatever it will become) comes from Quaker State... which is a sister company to Pennzoil.... which are both owned by Shell. At the QS refinery in Emlenton PA, you could see trucks from Valvoline, Castrol, Chevron, Mobil... all lined up to fill up with base stock. That refinery is now torn down, but I haven't been there since I was a kid. Not sure if they still use it for distribution or not. From there, each company adds their own additives to make their own formulations of 10w30, gear lube, 30w, etc. The "seven sisters" (the 7 biggest fossil fuel companies) all have their place. Companies like BP and ExxonMobil are primarily in the business of using the smallest and largest carbon chains; natural gas, gasoline, propane, then plastics. Shell is more in the middle with lubricating oils. From what I understand (I casually read the yearly publications they send me as a shareholder), many of the companies crack off what they want out of the crude and sell the rest to the other companies for what they want to use.
Important to note... Mobil's synthetic is still made above ground by Mobil or one of a few other manufacturers, but their non-synthetic is sourced from one of the two largest refineries in the US... QS or Pennzoil. That is to say - the difference between Mobil oil and Mobil1 oil. Different animals made in different places by different divisions of the ExxonMobil corp. Mobil1 came from the Mobil/Lukoil side, and as I understand it the regular Mobil non-synthetic oils are now produced by BP when BP acquired parts of the Mobil corp during Exxon and Mobil's merger in 99. Source for that is anecdotal from a friend of mine who works as an engineer for Bayer who does a lot of engineering work for ExxonMobil in Houston. So, in short, when you buy Wally World synthetic oil, what most likely happened was ExxonMobil or BP pumped it out of the ground, cracked off what they wanted, shipped it to Quaker State who further cracked off the mid-chains for lubricating oil, it was then shipped as base stock to Pennzoil where they filtered it, tested it, did some fine tuning with hydrogen cracking, added their secret sauce, then shipped it to a third-party bottling facility to put WalMart's label on it.
bobzilla said:I've got 5 years of UOA on multiple vehicles running extended drains on the wally world synthetic and OE filters. The stuff is great, especially for the price ($17.97/5 qt jug).
Bob,
That's the oil I'm using, with the OEM filter on my 16 Forte 1.6T. Easy commute, equally split country roads and freeway. Where would you start with the OCI?
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:03Panther said:So to our oil industry guys, whats (beside price and marketing) is the difference in Molble 1 full, and Wally's full?
I'm not an oil industry guy, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Just a car nerd.
As of a few years ago, Mobil1 was still a true, manufactured-above-ground synthetic oil. Wally's is refined crude oil that is likely Quaker State or Pennzoil in their own bottle. Nearly every store-brand oil across the country is either Quaker State or Pennzoil.
I thought Wally World, Amazon, Costco, were all Warren - out of Nebraska?
In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :
They are.
Peabody said:bobzilla said:I've got 5 years of UOA on multiple vehicles running extended drains on the wally world synthetic and OE filters. The stuff is great, especially for the price ($17.97/5 qt jug).
Bob,
That's the oil I'm using, with the OEM filter on my 16 Forte 1.6T. Easy commute, equally split country roads and freeway. Where would you start with the OCI?
I'd start at 5k monitoring oil level and work from there. I just changed the wife's gamma 1.6 and it only held 3.5 qts, that low of an oil sump makes me a little nervous for long intervals
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:03Panther said:So to our oil industry guys, whats (beside price and marketing) is the difference in Molble 1 full, and Wally's full?
I'm not an oil industry guy, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Just a car nerd.
As of a few years ago, Mobil1 was still a true, manufactured-above-ground synthetic oil. Wally's is refined crude oil that is likely Quaker State or Pennzoil in their own bottle. Nearly every store-brand oil across the country is either Quaker State or Pennzoil.
I thought Wally World, Amazon, Costco, were all Warren - out of Nebraska?
Warren was bought by Gulf in 1963, then Gulf rebranded with Chevron in 1985, then bought by Shell (which already owned QS and Pennzoil) which is part of Total SE, a french oil company.
Warren Oil IS Quaker State/Pennzoil.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Doing private label testing for Europe/south and Central America, I learned that is pronounced to-TAL. Good thing most of our communication was email I'd have butchered it on the phone so bad.
edit: the oil industry is almost as bad as the automobile industry for all the buying/selling/ swapping etc. 3 years ago I got to go through and update all the Kendall/Phillips/union/76 products because they moved sone around and did silly things.
In reply to bobzilla :
That’s where I am now. I was doing 6000 km (3700 mi) but that comes up awfully fast while commuting, and being pretty close to ideal conditions, I figured I could stretch it a bit. I believe it holds 4.5L and level does not change between oil changes
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