ESP A-Body

I am getting the urge to build an E-Street-Prepared Dart over the winter. MP still makes the road race torsion bars and heavy duty rear springs. Someone talk me down, quickly.

Do it!

As was said before, "We're enablers, not disablers.".

Brian

First I have to find a Dart that isn't rusted out and isn't selling for a fortune. I prefer one that already has a 318, but I am not spending $5,000 for a project / basket case.

A few years ago, I worked a Mopar show at LMVS. One evening, the crew attended a supplemmetary show "The Quarter Mile of Mopars" and ran across one of these - with a transplanted "new" Hemi complete w/fuel injection and the full complement of suspension upgrades:

Very impressive....

In short, DO IT!

Mmmmm... I love the early Darts!

I tell you what, you build an ESP Dart, and I'll build my Javelin for ESP, and we'll meet in the middle to race.

I can get you the contact information for the driver & navigator of the Dart that ran Targa Newfoundland this year...

Moparman wrote: I am getting the urge to build an E-Street-Prepared Dart over the winter. MP still makes the road race torsion bars and heavy duty rear springs. Someone talk me down, quickly.

Any of the good sized bars aren't available from MP anymore. You can get up to 1" bars from Just Suspension. I think they are coming out with some bigger ones, but I'd go with Firm Feel Inc's bars. They have them all the way up to 1.18" and they make them themselves.

Since I'm not up on the rules, what all is allowed in ESP? I'll be glad to talk you down from there.

Oh, and I do know where a solid '68 Dart is...

Do it! My mechanic and his dad (did the 360 swap on the Mighty Dak) run a 9 second Dart, it's a monster.

Nice story in the local paper on them, here: http://www.mykawartha.com/news/article/834055--10-seconds-of-adrenaline

In reply to Rob_Mopar:

You are correct. Mopar only makes their .920 inch "solo" bar. ESP Allows changes of springs (or in this case torsion bars), shocks, wheel are unlimited. Tires must be DOT approved (R-tires are OK). Few internal mod. The block can be bored .40 over, but that is it. Cam, compression, etc. must remain the same. Update / back-dates is ok. I could run a 340 or 360 in a 318 or slant 6 car. Gear ratios are unlimited and posi is ok. Intake and exhaust are ulimited. I have run headers with straight pipes if I wanted. Any carburetion and fuel injection is also ok. I already have a set of 14x8 wheels for a Dart.

Where is the Dart?

Moparman wrote: In reply to Rob_Mopar: You are correct. Mopar only makes their .920 inch "solo" bar. ESP Allows changes of springs (or in this case torsion bars), shocks, wheel are unlimited. Tires must be DOT approved (R-tires are OK). Few internal mod. The block can be bored .40 over, but that is it. Cam, compression, etc. must remain the same. Update / back-dates is ok. I could run a 340 or 360 in a 318 or slant 6 car. Gear ratios are unlimited and posi is ok. Intake and exhaust are ulimited. I have run headers with straight pipes if I wanted. Any carburetion and fuel injection is also ok. I already have a set of 14x8 wheels for a Dart. Where is the Dart?

The Dart is currently stored here in Chester County, PA. It's a buddy's car, and my old car. It's a 225 car. All the metal work is done, it's in primer and needs finish blocking and paint. It's stored at another club member's house while he's working on their car. He's talked about selling the Dart, but I don't know how serious he is right now. I'll call him on Sunday.

Moparman wrote: Gear ratios are unlimited and posi is ok.

Gear ratios are NOT unrestricted in Street Prepared. You can only use a gear set available in that car. If the factory didn't offer it with 3.73s as an option, for example, you can't run them.

Will wrote:

Moparman wrote: Gear ratios are unlimited and posi is ok.

Gear ratios are NOT unrestricted in Street Prepared. You can only use a gear set available in that car. If the factory didn't offer it with 3.73s as an option, for example, you can't run them.

3.91's were...

Moparman wrote: In reply to Rob_Mopar: You are correct. Mopar only makes their .920 inch "solo" bar. ESP Allows changes of springs (or in this case torsion bars), shocks, wheel are unlimited. Tires must be DOT approved (R-tires are OK). Few internal mod. The block can be bored .40 over, but that is it. Cam, compression, etc. must remain the same. Update / back-dates is ok. I could run a 340 or 360 in a 318 or slant 6 car. Gear ratios are unlimited and posi is ok. Intake and exhaust are ulimited. I have run headers with straight pipes if I wanted. Any carburetion and fuel injection is also ok. I already have a set of 14x8 wheels for a Dart. Where is the Dart?

IIRC, you cannot swap cylinder heads from a 340 to a 273, and vice versa - unless both/all engines used the same parts. The LA engine series had some lame ducks over the years so start with a "good" one.

You can port/polish the manifolds but I think you're limited to just one inch from the opening. Port matching is limited, too.

Keep us informed because this has the makings of a cool project!

Engines and transmissions must be exchanged as whole units, unless of course the parts are identical. But if the heads from a smaller engine, say, was hotter than the cam from a larger engine, a head swap would be illegal.

Betcha cant have it running by Xmas !! (Grin)

I wouldn't recommend starting out with a 273 for something like this. As much as I have an appreciation for the 273 Commando motor, it would be too expensive to build one up to be competitive.

The 340 would be the natural choice, but again expensive. Restorers and racers go looking for the blocks and heads so that keeps the prices up.

A 318 can really wake up with a few bolt-ons. Swapping the bigger port 340/360 heads, intake, and cam from a 340 will make for a serious 318. There are some decent performance pistons available for the 318 now.

The 360 is the easiest choice. They were available in 4bbl form form '74-76 in A-bodies. They were low compression but the longer stroke gives them more bottom end than the low compression 340 and the low compression 318. The 340 automatic cam was the 360 HP cam too.

Now I don't know how far the swapping rules will allow, but if legal in the class I would go with a Magnum 360 converted to a carb. Would require an aftermarket intake or redrilling the heads to use the earlier LA intake bolt pattern. That's fairly straight forward.

The 360 Magnum has better flowing heads on both the intake and exhaust, better combustion chamber, and good compression (9.5:1) right out of the box. The R/T version that was available in the Dakota in '99 had a better cam. From what I've read that cam got used across the board in the other 360's after that.

I had thought about this same thing a long time ago. I actually think there is a better car to start with, the Feather Duster (the one with the aluminum body stuff). For the engine, it has to be an engine that came stock in any car listed on the same line in the SCCA classification list as the car you start with.

Read the rules before commiting to ESP, especially if you have any desire to be competitive. Street Prepared rules are faily restrictive as far as the engine is concerned. If you just want to build something fun, either Street Mod or C-prepared may be a better choice.

Travis_K wrote: I had thought about this same thing a long time ago. I actually think there is a better car to start with, the Feather Duster (the one with the aluminum body stuff). For the engine, it has to be an engine that came stock in any car listed on the same line in the SCCA classification list as the car you start with.

Both the Feather Duster and Dart Light had some aluminum in them but good luck finding one today. They weren't all that common in the '70's let alone 35 years later.

If I remember correctly it was the hood and trunk, and if I'm right it was the bracing that was aluminum. For some reason I'm thinking the skins were still steel crimped to the aluminum bracing, but I might be wrong.

Rob_Mopar wrote:

Travis_K wrote: I had thought about this same thing a long time ago. I actually think there is a better car to start with, the Feather Duster (the one with the aluminum body stuff). For the engine, it has to be an engine that came stock in any car listed on the same line in the SCCA classification list as the car you start with.

Both the Feather Duster and Dart Light had some aluminum in them but good luck finding one today. They weren't all that common in the '70's let alone 35 years later. If I remember correctly it was the hood and trunk, and if I'm right it was the bracing that was aluminum. For some reason I'm thinking the skins were still steel crimped to the aluminum bracing, but I might be wrong.

Yep, rarity in the 70's means near unobtanium-status these days.

Rob, seems like the grills were aluminum, too. And the bumpers were at least a very lightweight steel, if they didn't use that bauxite-based stuff.

oldsaw wrote: Yep, rarity in the 70's means near unobtanium-status these days. Rob, seems like the grills were aluminum, too. And the bumpers were at least a very lightweight steel, if they didn't use that bauxite-based stuff.

Grills went plastic starting in '70. Some models/years had aluminum trim around the edges but the bulk of the grill was plastic by then.

The bumpers might have been aluminum. They would have been the giant crash bumpers those years. The earlier bumpers ('70-72) would still be lighter.

The Feather Duster was an economy model. Slant six, aluminum overdrive 4-speed stick, bare bones car. Most got used up and thrown away like any other era's bare bones economy cars.

oldsaw wrote:

Moparman wrote: In reply to Rob_Mopar: You are correct. Mopar only makes their .920 inch "solo" bar. ESP Allows changes of springs (or in this case torsion bars), shocks, wheel are unlimited. Tires must be DOT approved (R-tires are OK). Few internal mod. The block can be bored .40 over, but that is it. Cam, compression, etc. must remain the same. Update / back-dates is ok. I could run a 340 or 360 in a 318 or slant 6 car. Gear ratios are unlimited and posi is ok. Intake and exhaust are ulimited. I have run headers with straight pipes if I wanted. Any carburetion and fuel injection is also ok. I already have a set of 14x8 wheels for a Dart. Where is the Dart?

IIRC, you cannot swap cylinder heads from a 340 to a 273, and vice versa - unless both/all engines used the same parts. The LA engine series had some lame ducks over the years so start with a "good" one. You can port/polish the manifolds but I think you're limited to just one inch from the opening. Port matching is limited, too. Keep us informed because this has the makings of a cool project!

You are correct that I cannot swap heads between a 340 and a 273, but that would not be beneficial unless I also used higher compression pistons which is illegal in SP anyway. As for maniflods they are unlimited. I could a sing 4bb, a six pack, twin 4bbls (too much for an SP engine) or fuel injection.

This is from the SCCA SP rules:

C. Induction allowances are as follows: 1. Carburetors, fuel injection, and intake manifolds are unrestricted, subject to 15.10.D. Alternate throttle linkage and connections to facilitate installation of allowed induction systems are permitted, but may serve no other purpose. If an induction system item is allowed to be removed and its original mounting bracket can be removed by simply unbolting it, the bracket may be removed as well.

What I can do is put a 340 with 2.02 valves and manual-shift-profile cam in a 73 six cylinder light-weight Feather Duster as the SP rules say I can update and back date within a production series. This means that model years 68 thru 76 are fair game. I can swap whole engines, but I cannot swap internal parts to create an engine which was never available from the factory.

In reply to Ian F:

I have been running SP for 15 years. I am well acquainted with the rules. If I wanted to be competitive I wouldn't be building a Dart, or would I currently be running a Neon in FSP. I run to have fun an I like the prep level. As long as I am top 10 in pax (which I am most events) I am happy.

Hey Moparman,

I talked to my buddy with the Dart briefly tonight. I'll send you a PM in a couple seconds.

-Rob

In reply to Moparman:

Well, you asked for somebody to talk you down... I like the SP prep as well (fun, but restrictive enough to keep some resemblence of a budget), and would love to build a fun A-body for auto-x (being a long-time Mopar fan), but IMHO, an ESP prepped A-body just doesn't allow enough in the rules to build a fun car for the street, nontheless auto-x.