Here's another cheap, stop-gap, JC-Whitney worthy idea. Sell a kit for existing trailers that mounts a small generator driven off a contact wheel like an old bike generator. Feed it to a small 12v battery so that the lighting for your trailer is self-powering - that way it doesn't impact your range. Doesn't charge your truck but cuts some of your losses.
Are we talking semis or trucks?
A semi truck has some advantages. Lots of infrastructure, standardized equipment, and limited hours per day. Swap batteries into the cavern beneath the trailer and make them rentals you get at truck stops. Basically every trailer has the same footprint so this is super easy.
A truck is harder in that way. They could be towing equipment, cars, boats, random cargo, all shapes and sizes. I think this is where aero and regen works with you. I also think there could be a "towing package" where you lose half of the bed to even more batteries. I suspect the "Tow my race car every weekend during the season to random tracks" is going to continue to be gas or diesel for a while yet.
I see the $100/kWh constantly and for 2021 that is likely a "cell number" not a pack or integrated system number, and it's still optimistic by about 20-30%.
"Tow Package" now fills the bottom of the bed with batteries - may not make sense, but it's semi-viable, especially they could be rented/leased for those times you need it.
These are some of the fun reasons that some of the big truck guys are looking at FCEV for the long hauls. Just will be awhile for the infrastructure to get there (2030).
ultraclyde said:Here's another cheap, stop-gap, JC-Whitney worthy idea. Sell a kit for existing trailers that mounts a small generator driven off a contact wheel like an old bike generator. Feed it to a small 12v battery so that the lighting for your trailer is self-powering - that way it doesn't impact your range. Doesn't charge your truck but cuts some of your losses.
That won't affect your range as long as you're only going downhill. Otherwise, you're using the power in the battery to turn the wheels which pulls the trailer which turns the generator wheel which lights the lights. Losses all the way around. The correct answer here is "use LED lighting" ;)
asphalt_gundam said:I'm not sure how the engineering efficiency would work out but my initial thought is retrofit brake/generator on the trailer and power cable feed to the truck. Bolts on in place of standardized drum brake systems. Low/no drag generator/alternator that generates energy to send directly to the truck for immediate use. Also a way for it to apply resistance for re-gen braking or still have a std type brake (drum outside with cooling fins and alternator inner area. IF and it added little or no rolling resistance then it could increase range because its supplementing power to the truck without additional weight of battery and motor on the trailer itself.
Simple, relatively cheap. Any trailer can be converted
It takes more energy to turn a generator than comes out of it.
So, say the generator is making 100kw of electricity, it will take probably 110kw to turn it.
110kw is roughly 150 horsepower...
Pete. (l33t FS) said:asphalt_gundam said:I'm not sure how the engineering efficiency would work out but my initial thought is retrofit brake/generator on the trailer and power cable feed to the truck. Bolts on in place of standardized drum brake systems. Low/no drag generator/alternator that generates energy to send directly to the truck for immediate use. Also a way for it to apply resistance for re-gen braking or still have a std type brake (drum outside with cooling fins and alternator inner area. IF and it added little or no rolling resistance then it could increase range because its supplementing power to the truck without additional weight of battery and motor on the trailer itself.
Simple, relatively cheap. Any trailer can be converted
It takes more energy to turn a generator than comes out of it.
So, say the generator is making 100kw of electricity, it will take probably 110kw to turn it.
110kw is roughly 150 horsepower...
Brush up on this. Not going to work:
https://www.livescience.com/50941-second-law-thermodynamics.html
Yeah, you can't harvest power from the trailer when it's being propelled by the truck. F1 cars use "harvesting" to charge the battery on the straights but that's because they're being driven by the ICE, so it's basically a gas-powered generator with the road as the transmission.
But you certainly could use it to harvest energy when regenerating, I think that's an interesting and valid concept. The limiting factor may be the ability of the batteries to accept that power. The bigger batteries in towing vehicles will be able to accept more regeneration power than a car will.
Braking is all about absorbing energy. Usually it gets turned into heat (or smoke, on a bad day). If you can capture that energy instead, it's free.
Here's a question to ponder.
If the trailer has its own battery and motor/controller unit with the smarts to control itself (I need to accelerate, I need to brake, I need to hold constant speed, I need to power the outside wheels or drag the regen on the inside because we are going around a corner etc) how much tow rating does the vehicle "pulling it" actually need? Will there be a future where I can pull into U-haul, rent a fully charged up tandem axle (axles spread to keep tongue weight down) enclosed trailer and hook it on to my sedan and head down the road with 10,000 lbs behind me? Do I put the car in nuetral and let the trailer back up the whole rig? Why is there even a meatbag in the drivers seat in this scenario lol.
Probably not but fun to think about.
Keith Tanner said:Yeah, you can't harvest power from the trailer when it's being propelled by the truck. F1 cars use "harvesting" to charge the battery on the straights but that's because they're being driven by the ICE, so it's basically a gas-powered generator with the road as the transmission.
But you certainly could use it to harvest energy when regenerating, I think that's an interesting and valid concept. The limiting factor may be the ability of the batteries to accept that power. The bigger batteries in towing vehicles will be able to accept more regeneration power than a car will.
Braking is all about absorbing energy. Usually it gets turned into heat (or smoke, on a bad day). If you can capture that energy instead, it's free.
I wouldn't call it free, I'd say it's not wasted.
For the F1 car I believe when they are harvesting down the straight the power is actually coming off the MGU H which is the motor/generator attached to the turbo. In harvesting mode they can basically close the wastegate and control boost with the MGU H and store that energy in the battery. When someone punches it off the line or out of a corner that same unit is used to spin up the turbo instantly delivering that torque hit like a blower without any lag. Fun stuff.
What about a gas powered motor in the trailer that simply pushes the trailer? Seems like it should be easy to either use bluetooth or something to synch with the tow vehicle.
Heck, one of the Tesla founders pushed his electric powered car across the country with a beetle back half trailer 20-30 years ago. Said he would put the beetle in 4th, flip on the ignition, and when he got up to 35-40 or so the motor would start and he had a hand throttle from there.
Or simply take a used up volt with junk batteries and use the generator and electric motors combo if you can't easily package the motor where you would need it on a trailer.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Ok...so how about a clutched type system that generates on down hill/deceleration scenarios and has no affect in acceleration and steady speed. But then I suppose if the truck itself is adequate for this job is wouldn't be worth it either.
Solar panel roofs for enclosed trailers and go....
edit: and sides might as well be too
adam525i said:Keith Tanner said:Yeah, you can't harvest power from the trailer when it's being propelled by the truck. F1 cars use "harvesting" to charge the battery on the straights but that's because they're being driven by the ICE, so it's basically a gas-powered generator with the road as the transmission.
But you certainly could use it to harvest energy when regenerating, I think that's an interesting and valid concept. The limiting factor may be the ability of the batteries to accept that power. The bigger batteries in towing vehicles will be able to accept more regeneration power than a car will.
Braking is all about absorbing energy. Usually it gets turned into heat (or smoke, on a bad day). If you can capture that energy instead, it's free.
I wouldn't call it free, I'd say it's not wasted.
For the F1 car I believe when they are harvesting down the straight the power is actually coming off the MGU H which is the motor/generator attached to the turbo. In harvesting mode they can basically close the wastegate and control boost with the MGU H and store that energy in the battery. When someone punches it off the line or out of a corner that same unit is used to spin up the turbo instantly delivering that torque hit like a blower without any lag. Fun stuff.
Free, not wasted - same thing, really. You've already paid for it :) At that point, there is no further cost to access it.
F1 cars are nuts. But the fundamental principle is that they're charging the battery with energy created by the ICE. That works. Charging the battery using energy taken from the battery, not so much. Charging the battery with energy that would otherwise be wasted, now we're back into what works.
So what if you put a small battery pack in the trailer, wired to regen when braking? It uses the regen to charge the battery pack but it doesn't try to charge the tow vehicle. When you are stopped you can connect the TV via the normal charge cable and recover the battery power form the trailer.
EDIT: I think this isn't worth the effort while batteries have the mass they currently do, but maybe in the future....
I am enjoying all the perpetual motion machines being proposed here. Still waiting for one that works. 
adam525i said:Keith Tanner said:Yeah, you can't harvest power from the trailer when it's being propelled by the truck. F1 cars use "harvesting" to charge the battery on the straights but that's because they're being driven by the ICE, so it's basically a gas-powered generator with the road as the transmission.
But you certainly could use it to harvest energy when regenerating, I think that's an interesting and valid concept. The limiting factor may be the ability of the batteries to accept that power. The bigger batteries in towing vehicles will be able to accept more regeneration power than a car will.
Braking is all about absorbing energy. Usually it gets turned into heat (or smoke, on a bad day). If you can capture that energy instead, it's free.
I wouldn't call it free, I'd say it's not wasted.
For the F1 car I believe when they are harvesting down the straight the power is actually coming off the MGU H which is the motor/generator attached to the turbo. In harvesting mode they can basically close the wastegate and control boost with the MGU H and store that energy in the battery. When someone punches it off the line or out of a corner that same unit is used to spin up the turbo instantly delivering that torque hit like a blower without any lag. Fun stuff.
Coooooooool. Kind of like a turbocompound. They're harvesting power from the exhaust, over and above that which is compressing air into the engine.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:I am enjoying all the perpetual motion machines being proposed here. Still waiting for one that works.
There was a guy who took a look at electric water pumps and went one further, driving his alternator with an electric motor.
And he claimed that it charged the battery!
I'm sure that it functioned just dandy as a really Rube Goldberg way of stepping the 12v battery up to 14v, but I doubt it was actually charging. In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
asphalt_gundam said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Ok...so how about a clutched type system that generates on down hill/deceleration scenarios and has no affect in acceleration and steady speed. But then I suppose if the truck itself is adequate for this job is wouldn't be worth it either.
Solar panel roofs for enclosed trailers and go....
edit: and sides might as well be too
You're onto something I've thought - a self propelled trailer with the tow vehicle as the command/control unit. Once at speed could the solar effect range of the complete package?
adam525i said:For the F1 car I believe when they are harvesting down the straight the power is actually coming off the MGU H which is the motor/generator attached to the turbo. In harvesting mode they can basically close the wastegate and control boost with the MGU H and store that energy in the battery. When someone punches it off the line or out of a corner that same unit is used to spin up the turbo instantly delivering that torque hit like a blower without any lag. Fun stuff.
Yes, they take power off the turbine and use it either in the battery or in the MGU-K to drive the wheels, and yes they can put power into the MGU-H to spool up the turbo.
The "harvesting" thing really is traditional hybrid stuff though -- they're driving the MGU-K using the engine and putting energy into the battery. This is so that it can be used at a more opportune time later, either on the next lap (say when qualifying or trying for that 1 point for fast lap), saving up to make a passing attempt, or just because that energy gets a bigger benefit in terms of lap time if it's applied at the beginning of a long straight rather than the end of a short one.
None of that's really relevant to trailers though. :)
Rons said:asphalt_gundam said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Ok...so how about a clutched type system that generates on down hill/deceleration scenarios and has no affect in acceleration and steady speed. But then I suppose if the truck itself is adequate for this job is wouldn't be worth it either.
Solar panel roofs for enclosed trailers and go....
edit: and sides might as well be too
You're onto something I've thought - a self propelled trailer with the tow vehicle as the command/control unit. Once at speed could the solar effect range of the complete package?
Isn't that just a "van", though?
In reply to Rons :
I'm thinking more that the trailer is a charger only...no drive, no storage. that way the weight and complexity are minimum.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
As I intended it to come across yes. Just van trailers with huge flat panels anyway. However Solar tec is developing too. Pretty sure I remember seeing a phone charger panel that rolls up....now if it can take a curve then you could even line a boat trailer with it, to much less effect but its still something. Plus with a solar contribution it could charge up the truck while at the track over a long sunny weekend.
It's when you look at solar that you realize just how much power it takes to run a car down the road.
I could probably fit 600W of panels on top of my VW van based on how much room the current 100W panel occupies. In an hour, they'd gather 600 Wh - or enough power to drive our Model 3 about two miles. A weekend parked at the track (2 12 hour days) would get you about 50 miles of range for the Tesla. And of course that VW is not going to be as efficient as the Model 3, never mind something that can tow a trailer.
So technically, putting panels all over the top of a trailer can help with range but not very much unless there's a very significant increase in solar panel output.
It should also be mentioned that most trailers are crap for aerodynamics. Which as mentioned is a major problem. RV type camper trailers seem to be the only ones addressing this actively with rounded leading edges flat bottoms etc. Seems like there could be significant benefits on better designs.
asphalt_gundam said:As I intended it to come across yes. Just van trailers with huge flat panels anyway. However Solar tec is developing too. Pretty sure I remember seeing a phone charger panel that rolls up....now if it can take a curve then you could even line a boat trailer with it, to much less effect but its still something. Plus with a solar contribution it could charge up the truck while at the track over a long sunny weekend.
While it's true that any charging is going to extend range, mobile solar isn't going to help all that much. A little back-of-the-envelope math starting with the "15 watts per square foot" rule that Google provides suggests that you'll get 3kw from covering the roof of an 8x24' enclosed trailer with panels. That number assumes panels that are angled towards the sun, they'll be flat on the trailer so you're probably talking more like 2-2.5kw. To put it in perspective that's barely more than you get from a level 1 charger plugged into a standard 110 volt outlet.
You're better off leaving the solar panels at home and charging it there (potentially with an extra battery for time-shifting) than dragging them around with you on a trailer.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
But it would add up. My other thought of consideration is an enclosed trailer could be made of just solar panel sides and roof. If the structural integrity is there why have underlying normal panels. This could be a thing if Solar panels get real cheap and come in 4x8.
Whats the size of a 100w? Taking it to the max on roof/sides/front/back door a 20ft trailer could offer 620 square feet of panel. Say??? 50 percent efficiency of energy collection on that and what do you get?
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