GameboyRMH said:
No. You could reasonably argue that it's partly a modelling job, in which case it would be fine to hire attractive people. But unless, like ebonyandivory, you're fine with perpetuating the gender imbalance in motorsport, you should have a problem with only hiring female models, which overwhelmingly attract men.
I'd be fine with Grid Guys just as I'm fine with female race car drivers. Equality is ideal. I don't want to see any driver held back due to their chromosomes, skin color, etc. But I'm not losing any sleep over a 'gender imbalance' in motorsports. . Not having equal numbers of men and women in the sport does not automatically mean there's something dubious afoot. It might just indicate that women tend to be less interested in racing that men. That's a shame, because women have some unique advantages when it comes to racing (smaller/ lighter frames, faster reaction times, etc). John Force's daughters are terrific drag racers, and most importantly, they're very competitive. If we're trying to get young girls interested in motorsports, it's helpful when they can see their heroes actually be competitive, rather than struggling. It seems to me that Women winning does a lot more to encourage young girls than Grid Girls do to discourage them but I could be wrong.
Keep in mind that when Bernie was running F1, his opinion on women in the sport amounted to “as long as they wear white like all my other domestic appliances.”
I am completely unsurprised that F1’s new owners are trying to distance themselves from that way of thinking as much as humanly possible.
Link if you don’t believe me: http://www.espn.com/racing/news/story?series=irl&id=2089257
STM317 said:
It seems to me that Women winning does a lot more to encourage young girls than Grid Girls do to discourage them but I could be wrong.
You're probably right, but then you have to wonder how many potential winning female drivers could be discouraged by Grid Girls (only).
I just want to ask just one thing, of all of us: PLEASE GIVE WOMEN MORE CREDIT. They do not need men’s help, trust me.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Probably the same number of winning male drivers that would be discouraged by Grid Guys. I'm guessing that number would be pretty low. Racers are competitive. They love the adrenaline rush of being in the car, going fast, and competing. I don't think scantily clad people standing near their car for 5 minutes before a race would be strong enough to discourage them from doing what they love.
Grid girls aren't there for the participants. They're there to sell crap to the spectators. The people selling that crap choose women, and dress them scantily for a reason. It must be effective, or they wouldn't bother. I'm not saying that's right, but sex will always sell. You can of course make the argument that it's demeaning to the women, but they're doing it willingly. Its easy to say something is objectifying from the outside, but if the women at the center of it don't feel objectified, then why are we upset?
lrrs
Reader
2/2/18 2:04 p.m.
Lots of talk about this subject, kind of reminds me of "New Coke".
Waiting to see if there will be a reversal of the policy.
Yea, I am that old.
STM317 said:
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Probably the same number of winning male drivers that would be discouraged by Grid Guys.
I don't think anyone's proposing a switch to just Grid Guys.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Of course not. And having grid girls is not saying that women can't race. I don't want to defend the practice too much, because I've already said that I don't really see the need for them, and eliminating them doesn't bother me. But It's not as if female racers are being told that they can't race, but they can be grid girls as a consolation. The women drawn to driving and the women drawn to being a grid girl are probably a little different don't you think?
STM317 said:
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Of course not. And having grid girls is not saying that women can't race. I don't want to defend the practice too much, because I've already said that I don't really see the need for them, and eliminating them doesn't bother me. But It's not as if female racers are being told that they can't race, but they can be grid girls as a consolation. The women drawn to driving and the women drawn to being a grid girl are probably a little different don't you think?
That is basically the message you're sending to potential female racers in a subtle way when they see just grid girls working for grids of overwhelmingly male racers, especially if they're children. I'm not so sure that women drawn to being grid girls wouldn't have been drawn to being racers if they'd seen something different.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
I think they're vastly different personality types. The female racers that I've known, or seen interviewed are generally adamant that they be seen as racers first, and women somewhere further down the list. They tend to shun any attention they might receive for appearances, and strongly prefer to let their driving do the talking.
Models (that's what grid girls are), are far more comfortable in the limelight. You don't become a model if you don't enjoy attention, or compliments about your appearance. They embrace society's traditional view of femininity that female racers reject, or keep tucked away.
Danica might be the exception, but she was grilled by female drivers and feminists for using her looks. She's also the most financially successful female driver of all time, so you be the judge...
I suspect any woman in good enough physical condition to consider being a serious driver would have had no problem getting a job as a grid girl. It takes a certain amount of athleticism to be a driver, way more than I have, and that level of fitness always looks "good."
That grid girl job would have been fantastic for networking with the entirety of the F1 racing heirarchy, from fans and sponsors to crew and drivers. It actually sounds like it could have been a great way for a future driver to get a start to me.
I'm always torn my this sort of thing. Generally my rule is that if it's being torn down from the inside it's the right thing to do and if it's being torn down from without then it's probably PC meddling. So if there were grid girls who felt objectified or who hated their working conditions then get rid of it, but if they all loved their jobs and someone else on their behalf cost them their jobs then maybe it wasn't yet time for change just for the sake of change. I honestly don't know enough about what was going on before to know which this is, so I'm going to continue to have no opinion.
I will, however, continue to praise the little girls in my life for the things they do to improve themselves and their situation that took hard work on their part, especially if it reinforces that they can stretch in any direction they have an interest. If that means praising the niece who wants to do pageants on how she looks, that's fine, but I prefer to praise the one who studied extra hard and past a tough test or who challenged someone else's notion of what she "should" do.
I generally agree with Gameboy on this issue, but I will add that periodically someone mentions "Well marketing decided they needed attractive women to sell their product" or something to that effect. Well, now FI is deciding they don't need them. You can be sure that this is still a financial decision. In their attempt to make more money, appear to a broader audience, etc. they decided that grid girls had to go. In that aspect, it is just a business decision - not so much PC meddling.
Personally, on top of sending the wrong message, I feel like they just simply don't belong as part of the sport. There are plenty of ways to look at attractive females... Playboy, Miss America, the internet. F1 should be about racing.
ebonyandivory said:
I just want to ask just one thing, of all of us: PLEASE GIVE WOMEN MORE CREDIT. They do not need men’s help, trust me.
This is wrong. The women you know might not, but there are still a lot of places and a lot of industries where women are not on a level playing field. No amount of antectodal evidence changes that.
How about a grid girls race? That should appeal to everyone. I'd watch the E36 M3 out of that.
I suppose I've never quite grasped the feminist movement. I've had many discussions about this with my sister who is a college dean, and has risen up through the ranks from a teachers assistant to running a university. She is also somewhat baffled by the inconsistencies although still considers herself a feminist. On the one hand they want to have women be able to choose what they want, on the other hand they don't want women to choose anything that they may not agree with. Why do you have to pick one way or the other? In this instance I think if women do want to do the job, and this is a fairly well paid job, then they should be allowed as long as there is a demand. It's nothing more than a modeling job and adds to the festival of it all much like a parade, flyover, presentation of colors, etc. If they want to keep grid girls (or guys if they so desire), give them more to wear. There has been somewhat of a trend in this direction anyway. If you've ever been to a F1 race you'll know that these ladies work pretty much all weekend. It's far more than standing in front of a car for an hour.
Personally, it's not going to affect me one way or the other, but to me it's sad to see our PC world claim another victim. If they wanted to mix guys in there with the girls, fine, but it seems to me we are answering questions that haven't been asked. In any event, they own the series and can do what they want with it. I doubt in the long run it will matter much to anyone other than the women who will no longer have the income they would have made off these appearances.
In reply to STM317 :
You make a valid point. Perhaps you should add that according to NASCAR 46% of their audience is women.
How much is due to Danica Patrick and how much is due to good-looking male drivers I don’t know.
All I know is attendance went down once Dale Earnhardt ( sr) died? So perhaps it has more to do with charisma then Gender?
Dang. Five pages in less than 12 hours. Must be some kind of record for this forum!
Why is it so hard for some to understand that certain things are more appealing to one gender over another.... It's not all some giant patriarch based conspiracy, its human nature.
Let's stop and have a look at our own backyard here for a second, GRM is a fairly friendly and decent corner of the internet, we have some awesome female members who are more than capable of making contributions every bit as valid and important as any male member....but look at the makeup of the forum, I'd say men outnumber women more than 10:1 easily. Is that because women don't feel welcome or valid here? Or is it perhaps that they really just aren't that interested in the same things as most of the male members here are.
I love when I meet a woman who is into cars and Motorsports, and its awesome to see that there are more interested and involved these days, but I'm not going to kid myself into believing it'll ever be a gender balanced interest. Same way as there are plenty of things the women in my life are interested in that just don't really appeal to me or most other men.
I watched an episode of Comedians in Cars getting coffee the other day, and there was a coffee shop that caused me to think similar thoughts to this thread. Patton Oswald was the guest, and they went to a hipster coffee shop in downtown LA. When Jerry asked for sugar, they said, "We have no sweeteners here." in a tone that suggested that only a complete waste of skin would want coffee in a manner that wasn't approved by the hipster proletariat.
I don't give a crap about grid girls, other than to think, "She wouldn't be able to survive long in the coming apocalypse with that much hair.", but my vision of female beauty tends towards a hard working girl in jeans and sensible shoes that cleans up pretty nice for the Saturday night dance. Too midwest, I guess.
If they introduce grid toddlers like they use in European football, I will shoot the TV.
Jerry said:
. I'm surprised the SCCA still has a Ladies class for autocross.
I'm surprised the SCCA doesn't have autocross classes for age groups, ethnicities, and income levels.
irish44j said:
Jerry said:
. I'm surprised the SCCA still has a Ladies class for autocross.
I'm surprised the SCCA doesn't have autocross classes for age groups, ethnicities, and income levels.
you forgot about driver heights and weights...
Nothing wrong with admiring a pretty lady. That’s how children are born. It’s NATURAL.
The thing about the women’s Right’s movement that I’ve never understood is that most of them want “rights equal to men”, which is great, but in the same breath say “I want a man to treat me like a woman.”
Equal rights is equal on BOTH SIDES, and in ALL APECTS. But, in our culture, Men are supposed to hit men, not women. But if things are supposed to be equal, then which is the right choice?
Stop the world I want to get off of it. 
