Ferrari "gives up" manual trans.

I was really surprised when I found a '00 Audi A6 with quattro and the bi-turbo with a manual 6 speed transmission. It didnt even have the S-Line package (sports package).

I dunno.

Call me crazy, but I actually like the thought of driving something with a flappy-paddle gearbox. Sure, a true full-manual tranny with a proper clutch pedal is fun in the right situations, but it's also a metric pain in the ass in others.

I started out driving automatics, and try as I might, I never have been able to get my clutch skills to the point where I'm as smooth as I'd like to be. I'd love to blame it on what I'm driving, but I know better than that.

I knew this was coming years ago. Technology marches on. I mean, waaaaaay back in the olden days (don't you love that phrase) you actually had to look in you blind spots before you changed lanes. Now you just rely on a little L.E.D in your mirror. Then when you whack into somebody in the next lane you sue Volvo and get rich.

I love the DSG gearbox in my GTI, and it's actually the reason I bought one over the MS3. The driving experience is exactly the same as driving a manual except I don't have to do the work. Perfect rev matches on shifts, never miss a gear, never grind. And if I'm trying to eat or talk on the phone I can have it shift for me.

Yes, I'm capable of pulling off buttery smooth rev match to redline while threshold braking downshifts in a manual car, and it was a fun skill to learn. However, it doesn't make driving any less fun to have the car do it for me.

You really need to drive a car with a good DSG box before you dismiss the concept as crap.

I'll only believe that automatics are the answer when I drive one that takes my instructions with no delays or arguments.

^True.

I for one, would be happy to swap to a newer auto in some of my vehicles, but for the cost and difficulty of making the controllers work without swapping the whole rest of the car with it.

when I bought my 99 Hyundai Tiburon new... the one I bought was the ONLY stick shift they had in a lot of a 30 tiburons..

You're lucky they had one for you to look at already, or they may just have lied and told you you couldnt get a manual in it. This happened to my fiancee when she bought her Mazda3. Ive also heard of it happening at Hyundai dealerships, but im guessing it could happen anywhere. Salespeople will lie straight through their teeth to make the sale.

skruffy wrote: You really need to drive a car with a good DSG box before you dismiss the concept as crap.

Even as a huge manual fan, who daily drives a manual, and has mostly never bought anything but a manual, I agree with this sentiment. I reserve my scorn for traditioanl automatics even if they have a "manual" shift mode. On the other hand, DSG and Ferrari like dual clutch auto-manuals seem pretty cool and I wouldn't be against at least rying one out. I like to have options though, and I have a feeling that E36 M3ty automatics will always be the norm for street cars, as they have been for a while now in the US.

I think you'll see less and less manuals available on non-performance cars (Accord, Camry, Mazda6/3, etc...), the sport/performance segment will keep them in one form or another (Miata, Mustang, M3, etc...)

On a sports/performance car, it had better have a clutch and not a torque converter or I'm not interested. Whether it has a 3rd pedal or not is negotiable.

My understanding of the SMG in the E46 M3 is that it is the exact same transmission (and clutch?) as the 3-pedal version, with a hydraulic actuator in place of the clutch fork. What I've read indicates it is only 20 lbs heavier than a 3-pedal version. I'd love to try one as I've never driven any type of SMG/DSG.

The funny thing is that the definition of a "true" sports car will someday mean a multi-speed DSG transmission. Why would you give up 8 speeds and zero-lag shifts and always being in the sweet spot for torque...for an antiquated 5-speed? Why give up one pedal for each foot...for difficult heel and toe shifting? Ferrari, Bugatti, the Nissan GT-R...all have seen the light and it will become the mark of a "real" sports car whether we like it or not.

WilD wrote: Even as a huge manual fan, who daily drives a manual, and has mostly never bought anything but a manual, I agree with this sentiment. I reserve my scorn for traditioanl automatics even if they have a "manual" shift mode.

For small capacity engines I might agree with you. But have you drioven a modern torque convert gearbox in a large sporty car like a V8 BMW or Jag? HEck even the Evo guys have plenty of good things to say about those, especialy in the new XKR's

aussiesmg wrote: I have a feeling there will always be a couple of gear-head oriented companies who will offer a traditional shifter, I would offer up Lotus, Mazda and maybe Porsche as likely cadidates.

Not sure about Porsche. You can't get a Porsche Panamera without a PDK (their dual clutch manuamtic setup) in the US. They seem to have put a lot of work into it, though - I was at a SAE meeting where they were talking about the car. They went to great lengths to make sure it wouldn't shift and upset the car mid-corner, that it wouldn't break when using launch control (on a 4,300 lb, 500 hp, all wheel drive car!), etc. It did seem impressive, though I'd have been more impressed if it wouldn't give the computer fits if your tire diameters didn't perfectly match.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

WilD wrote: Even as a huge manual fan, who daily drives a manual, and has mostly never bought anything but a manual, I agree with this sentiment. I reserve my scorn for traditioanl automatics even if they have a "manual" shift mode.

For small capacity engines I might agree with you. But have you drioven a modern torque convert gearbox in a large sporty car like a V8 BMW or Jag? HEck even the Evo guys have plenty of good things to say about those, especialy in the new XKR's

Unfortunately, I have not. My automatic experiences are limited to American cars with dubious performace credentials. My only automatic is a '92 Camaro with a 305 and three speed I bought from my parents (who bought it new) because it was an insane inside deal. It isn't a bad car, but I'm convinced it could be more fun with a manual. My other cars have all been manual. I'd give a new Jaguar XKR or XFR a chance (510 hp in a sexy package? Yes, please!) , but they are still somewhat out of my price range. It is possible I have simply never sampled a really good one. All other things being equal, I still like a nice stick to row.

I drove a DGC equipped GTI and I thought it was a great transmission for an enthusiast's daily driver. The one thing it would not do that I would really miss (in a rwd application) is allow a driver to depress the clutch, rev a bit and drop the clutch while giving a quick tug of the steering wheel to initiate over steer in the wet or on ice/snow. I suppose drifters use the same technique. Other than that option being off the table, it thought the 3 shaft twin clutch DSG technology was great. I also hope to always have a < = 2000 lb gasoline powered stick shift car with manual everything in the quiver until death do us part.

WilD wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

WilD wrote: Even as a huge manual fan, who daily drives a manual, and has mostly never bought anything but a manual, I agree with this sentiment. I reserve my scorn for traditioanl automatics even if they have a "manual" shift mode.

For small capacity engines I might agree with you. But have you drioven a modern torque convert gearbox in a large sporty car like a V8 BMW or Jag? HEck even the Evo guys have plenty of good things to say about those, especialy in the new XKR's

Unfortunately, I have not. My automatic experiences are limited to American cars with dubious performace credentials. My only automatic is a '92 Camaro with a 305 and three speed I bought from my parents (who bought it new) because it was an insane inside deal. It isn't a bad car, but I'm convinced it could be more fun with a manual. My other cars have all been manual. I'd give a new Jaguar XKR or XFR a chance (510 hp in a sexy package? Yes, please!) , but they are still somewhat out of my price range. It is possible I have simply never sampled a really good one. All other things being equal, I still like a nice stick to row.

That bring up another interesting point. My Father in Law has an 85 Vette, 350TPI with an auto. I absolutely love that pairing with an auto and couldn't imagine driving one with a manual. The reason that car works so well with an auto is it has about 3.5 hp but about a bazillion lb/ft of torque and the auto really suits that. I know many of the C4 Vette's autocrossed successfully were auto for that very reason. Those cars can really pull hard out of corners when you get on the power, much harder than the specs would lead you to believe. That car is really nice on the street as well. It feels much faster than it really is, but as such you can come out of a corner/bend/junction/side street and floor it for a second or two then lift off at a safe and responsible speed and not have annoyed anyone. Nice combo.

I think that's another reason why you'll see Europe driving many many more auto's soon as well. Already over 50% of new cars in Europe are Diesel, many of those are small capacity turbo diesels which have massive torque but over a very narrow power band. Driving them with a manual is very frustrating as you find yourself having to shift all the time. It drives you crazy when your in 3rd before you even get to the end of the row of cars you parked in. A good multi speed manual or automated manual makes those cars far more pleasurable to drive.

Shaun wrote: The one thing it would not do that I would really miss (in a rwd application) is allow a driver to depress the clutch, rev a bit and drop the clutch while giving a quick tug of the steering wheel to initiate over steer

Drifters call it a clutch kick

I used to do it all the time in my 65hp hachi. I'm scared to even think about doing it in the Cobra (don't trust that T45 any further than I can throw it).

Shaun wrote: I drove a DGC equipped GTI and I thought it was a great transmission for an enthusiast's daily driver. The one thing it would not do that I would really miss (in a rwd application) is allow a driver to depress the clutch, rev a bit and drop the clutch while giving a quick tug of the steering wheel to initiate over steer in the wet or on ice/snow.

Try to LFB an Audi/VW Turbo with drive-by-wire and it kills the fuel on you so you fall off boost. What the eff were they thinking?

Adrian_Thompson wrote: That bring up another interesting point. My Father in Law has an 85 Vette, 350TPI with an auto. I absolutely love that pairing with an auto and couldn't imagine driving one with a manual. The reason that car works so well with an auto is it has about 3.5 hp but about a bazillion lb/ft of torque and the auto really suits that.

I agree with this 100%. Automatics are awesome for high-torque, low-rpm engines. Those two qualities negate the two heinously annoying things about automatics: the high torque counters the relatively high parasitic loss, and the low-rpm nature makes the auto's shift-points make sense.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

You make a strong point. I may be delusional in thinking my Camaro would be better with a manual. The way you describe your father in law's vette pretty much matches my experiences with the Camaro. It wouldn't be the first time my completely arbitrary preferences have interfered with reality.

I drove a SMG BMW before we bought my wife's 6 speed Audi and I felt stupid clicking the little paddles, the stick lever was a little more natural. But what is the point in manually shifting the thing 99% of the time? There is none, and that is why I felt stupid. I felt like I was 16 again and manually shifting my moms auto Lincoln Towncar. Unless you are on the track, or driving like you are, then you may as well be in full auto. And I suspect that the vast majority of the owners of these things stop putting them in manual mode after the newness wears off (2 weeks max). I don't under stand why people find driving a real manual so taxing. I have commuted in a stick (everything from a Jeep to a Miata) where I would have 45 min traffic jams 3 or 4 times a week. Except during the time I broke my right arm, I never wished for a auto. How out of shape are peoples legs that pushing a hyd clutch in is considered work???

pinchvalve wrote: The funny thing is that the definition of a "true" sports car will someday mean a multi-speed DSG transmission. Why would you give up 8 speeds and zero-lag shifts and always being in the sweet spot for torque...for an antiquated 5-speed? Why give up one pedal for each foot...for difficult heel and toe shifting? Ferrari, Bugatti, the Nissan GT-R...all have seen the light and it will become the mark of a "real" sports car whether we like it or not.

I refuse to call anything a sports car unless it has a 3 pedal manual. That is the only way I will ever by a sports car. Of coarse, this is coming from someone who's ideal sports car is a Morgan or MG and thinks power steering and drive-by-wire are some of the worst things for a car ever.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Shaun wrote: I drove a DGC equipped GTI and I thought it was a great transmission for an enthusiast's daily driver. The one thing it would not do that I would really miss (in a rwd application) is allow a driver to depress the clutch, rev a bit and drop the clutch while giving a quick tug of the steering wheel to initiate over steer in the wet or on ice/snow.

Try to LFB an Audi/VW Turbo with drive-by-wire and it kills the fuel on you so you fall off boost. What the eff were they thinking?

I did not try that in the GTI. Not good at all.

I drive our mazda3 4spd auto in manual mode constantly. I like my shift points a LOT better than the factory ones for part throttle driving.

I also had an old 3.5L intrepid which was converted to autostick (which just commands a perfectly normal shift from the perfectly normal auto) and used it a lot, especially after i put a 3300 rpm stall converter in it. I could just ride the 3300 stall and upshift early so that the rpm never moved, and ride a surge of pleasant torque from 0 to cruising speed. Sorta like a cvt except better, because UNLIKE a CVT that thing would launch as hard as the traction i had. I still have the autostick tranny controller and plan to put it in my auto dodge dynasty when i put a higher stall converter in that thing.

The situation with turbo k-cars is similar to what others have posted here.. The only auto available was a 3spd with pretty tall gears, but when you can make 350lb ft of torque in a sub 3k-lb car on stock parts, its actually a pretty desirable thing because its MUCH easier to manage traction. My aries (3spd auto converted to 5spd long ago) is so touchy and torquey that i generally try to get out of first as soon as possible, and i actually plan to go to special effort to kill low-rpm torque to make the thing more driveable and raceable.

skruffy wrote: I love the DSG gearbox in my GTI, and it's actually the reason I bought one over the MS3. The driving experience is exactly the same as driving a manual except I don't have to do the work. Perfect rev matches on shifts, never miss a gear, never grind. And if I'm trying to eat or talk on the phone I can have it shift for me. Yes, I'm capable of pulling off buttery smooth rev match to redline while threshold braking downshifts in a manual car, and it was a fun skill to learn. However, it doesn't make driving any less fun to have the car do it for me. You really need to drive a car with a good DSG box before you dismiss the concept as crap.

The only faults I find that DSG transmissions have is:

VERY expensive fluid services every 40K miles (~$500.00).

There is still a clutch and flywheel that do wear, and because there are actually two clutches and one dual mass flywheel they get pretty expensive every 100k miles.

The clutches are made of carbon ceramic material but flywheels are made of glass (not really but it makes the clutch sound toughR than the transmission)

The aforementioned Left Foot Braking issue.

The GTI doesn't cut power until you've been on the brake and the gas for more than 5 seconds or so.

96DXCivic wrote:

pinchvalve wrote: The funny thing is that the definition of a "true" sports car will someday mean a multi-speed DSG transmission. Why would you give up 8 speeds and zero-lag shifts and always being in the sweet spot for torque...for an antiquated 5-speed? Why give up one pedal for each foot...for difficult heel and toe shifting? Ferrari, Bugatti, the Nissan GT-R...all have seen the light and it will become the mark of a "real" sports car whether we like it or not.

I refuse to call anything a sports car unless it has a 3 pedal manual. That is the only way I will ever by a sports car. Of coarse, this is coming from someone who's ideal sports car is a Morgan or MG and thinks power steering and drive-by-wire are some of the worst things for a car ever.

You do know that all real (and by real, I mean the racing sports cars) sports cars all have either paddle shifts or sequential shifting, right (and have for over a decade now)? Sports cars are ones that are used for sporting events- aka- racing. All top end cars use a clutch to pull away from a stop, and then never again.

The "romance" of a sports car comes from the ideal that you post, but had the technology been available at the time, no doubt, a Morgan would have sported squential shifting, and the real drivers would have figured out how to drive it w/o the clutch as to be faster.

Eric

I like DSG transmissions, but two things make me hate them.

Creeping: when they creep forward , I freak out. Manual cars shouldn't do that, it just pointlessly wears the clutch.

Paddles: Real paddle shift cars have the paddles mounted on the column, so they stay put in a corner. Newer cars have them on the wheel, so I can never find them in a corner. It encourages me to cross my arms.