I sense Chris V will soon be here, he was all over the last manual vs auto vs semi-auto discussion.
I prefer having a choice when it is my money on the line. Let me try one of each and I'll choose. Don't give me that choice? Well, then I might look at a competitor's product. Period.
WilD wrote: In reply to Adrian_Thompson: You make a strong point. I may be delusional in thinking my Camaro would be better with a manual. The way you describe your father in law's vette pretty much matches my experiences with the Camaro. It wouldn't be the first time my completely arbitrary preferences have interfered with reality.
As an owner of Automatic and 5speed thirdgen F-bodies (Simultaneously, no less) I can assure you that a standard transmission in one of these cars makes it, easily, 100% more fun to drive.
Clem
The worst are the CVT transmissions. They have no jump off the line and sound as if they are constantly slipping. My have has a Caliber R/T with the Jatco-sourced CVT and it is horrible off the line and is buzzy unlessI use the autostick function. Once rolling and using the autostick it is pretty good.
alfadriver wrote: You do know that all real (and by real, I mean the racing sports cars) sports cars all have either paddle shifts or sequential shifting, right (and have for over a decade now)? Sports cars are ones that are used for sporting events- aka- racing.
They have cool shirts to keep the drivers body temp in check. Should VW replace the AC with that in their next sporty hatch?
Just because race cars use it, it doesn't automatically make a better or more enjoyable street car. If you were to add up all the shifts that I make on my daily commute to work, you would find that a good auto manual may save me 8 seconds each way.
i don't give a good goddamn about "0.2s faster 0-60" for a street car. i want three pedals. if i want to just ride along, i'll take the bus.
perhaps not coincidentally, i have "given up" wanting a new Ferrari. weird.
ReverendDexter wrote: Automatics are awesome for high-torque, low-rpm engines.
like VW TDIs, diesel F350s and Freightliners.
Buzz Killington wrote:ReverendDexter wrote: Automatics are awesome for high-torque, low-rpm engines.like VW TDIs, diesel F350s and Freightliners.
that is some wacky logic, yo.
I've done the stick and the auto for DD duty. I'll stick with the auto cause I'm lazy and I drive a E series van. Trust me when I say a manual does nothing for them. BTDT. For sporty driving, I'll stay with the stick. I would love to have a sequential box, but I never will because they are too complicated and too expensive to justify the few seconds they would save. I'm a firm believer in K.I.S.S.
Ferrari's decision won't ever affect me. Just the thought of a car with a 25K transmission makes my skin crawl. I'll stick with the cheap old manuals.
Now if I ever won the lottery...of course I would have to actually buy a ticket for that to happen.
according to Wiki 84% of the cars in this country are sold with at and 80% of the cars sold in Europe are manual....
if I lived somewhere like Atlanta and had to drive Peachtree Industrial each evening I probably would opt for an auto.... living here in the sticks I'll keep my stick
another though ... how many have ever roll started an automatic equipped vehicle ?
I just saw an Acura add that said "driving an automatic that shifts like a manual makes driving fun".
I think that even if the manual transmission isn't killed by the semi-auto it would at some point be killed by the standard automatic on everything except performance cars. At school probably only 1 of every 10 or 15 people who drive know how to drive a manual and hardly anyone does drive one daily. If you ask someone why they don't at least try to learn they say that it is to hard.
I have personally never owned anything other then a manual. I have never even driven an auto.
alfadriver wrote:96DXCivic wrote:You do know that all real (and by real, I mean the racing sports cars) sports cars all have either paddle shifts or sequential shifting, right (and have for over a decade now)? Sports cars are ones that are used for sporting events- aka- racing. All top end cars use a clutch to pull away from a stop, and then never again. The "romance" of a sports car comes from the ideal that you post, but had the technology been available at the time, no doubt, a Morgan would have sported squential shifting, and the real drivers would have figured out how to drive it w/o the clutch as to be faster. Ericpinchvalve wrote: The funny thing is that the definition of a "true" sports car will someday mean a multi-speed DSG transmission. Why would you give up 8 speeds and zero-lag shifts and always being in the sweet spot for torque...for an antiquated 5-speed? Why give up one pedal for each foot...for difficult heel and toe shifting? Ferrari, Bugatti, the Nissan GT-R...all have seen the light and it will become the mark of a "real" sports car whether we like it or not.I refuse to call anything a sports car unless it has a 3 pedal manual. That is the only way I will ever by a sports car. Of coarse, this is coming from someone who's ideal sports car is a Morgan or MG and thinks power steering and drive-by-wire are some of the worst things for a car ever.
Yes. I do know that but I would never own one of those cars and I am glad that those things weren't around at that time. I think sometimes engineers forget that sports cars aren't just about being the fastest thing out there and that they are about the joy of driving.
ratghia wrote: I just saw an Acura add that said "driving an automatic that shifts like a manual makes driving fun".
Isn't that kind of like saying that an inflatable doll with servo-operated limbs would make... Oh never mind. I should stop typing now.
It's a Ferrari.
It will either be driven by someone who needs that extra hand free to grope their secretary, or a race driver who wants that split second shift.
I really need to drive a car equipped with a dual clutch transmission. I have heard so many people talk about how awesome they are, I just don't know if it would be the same w/o a clutch pedal...
Rusnak_322 wrote: They have cool shirts to keep the drivers body temp in check. Should VW replace the AC with that in their next sporty hatch?
Well, that is a much more efficient way to maintain comfort inside a passenger cabin. Why heat/cool a few hundred cubic feet of air constantly when you can heat/cool a few hundred square inches of surface area? In practice the cool shirt idea isn't "Better" but if you are after efficiency like the guys from Italy you might give up a little here or there for better, more consistant times.
Rusnak_322 wrote:alfadriver wrote: You do know that all real (and by real, I mean the racing sports cars) sports cars all have either paddle shifts or sequential shifting, right (and have for over a decade now)? Sports cars are ones that are used for sporting events- aka- racing.They have cool shirts to keep the drivers body temp in check. Should VW replace the AC with that in their next sporty hatch? Just because race cars use it, it doesn't automatically make a better or more enjoyable street car. If you were to add up all the shifts that I make on my daily commute to work, you would find that a good auto manual may save me 8 seconds each way.
You missed my point. Sports cars, REAL Sports cars have not had real shifters for a decade. So stop romaticizing that real sports car have real shifters.
Sporty cars might have them, but not sports cars.
Eric
96DXCivic wrote: Yes. I do know that but I would never own one of those cars and I am glad that those things weren't around at that time. I think sometimes engineers forget that sports cars aren't just about being the fastest thing out there and that they are about the joy of driving.
You might know it, but you don't get it. Sports cars are cars that are intended to compete in a sporting event, so being the fastest IS the point.
Indeed, the Miata is the closest thing most of us will get to owning a real Sports car (well, Per has a real sports car).
What you ask for isn't about real sports cars, so stop pretending that they are some magical measure of a car. They are not- they are purely about going the fastest over a given distance or time.
Sporty cars, like ones people can buy, are ones you talk of. And the people YOU want to talk to are the marketeers. They are the ones who define the envelope where the car is designed. If it's supposed to be fast, most engineers will put in a DSG, since it lets the driver pay more attention to driving rather than shifting. If it's supposed to be about visceral feel- however the marketeer defines that, that's when you get some slick shifting H-gate.
Geez, if you REALLY want visceral feel, drive a Model T.
People like to talk themselves into being purists of one type or another, but it would take less than 30 seconds to find holes and comproises in your personal claim to be a purist. You drive a Civic, for crying out loud. What kind of "purist" drives someting with a top? 
Me? I won't even bother pretending the be a purist- my next Miata will have a retractable hard top.
Eric
Well a Porsche 911 is a real sports car. So is the Corvette. How about a Lotus Elise or Miata? How long have they had stick shifts? They are some of the cars that can be bought today that scream sports car to me.
Sure, a race version may have a seq shifter, but it is a race car.
Sports cars ≠ race cars.
A sports car may be turned into a race car, but a sports car is made to be driven on the street.
If you drive a Miata, are you really that concerned about outright speed? Even if you choose to track it, you probably choose it because of it being a fun car and cheap to operate.
Ferraris aren't sports cars. They're exotics.
Rusnak_322 wrote: Well a Porsche 911 is a real sports car. So is the Corvette.... How long have they had stick shifts?
The ones that are actually competing for a professional wins have not for well over a decade now.
Race cars are sports cars, anything else is a marketing idea that has many compromises.
Again, what we all think of as Sports Cars came FROM the professional driving ranks back in the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's- including the small bore MG's that won their classes at LeMans and the prototype Ferraris that won outright. That's what we dream of when we think Sports cars, and then extend that to a modern marketing idea for a sporty car.
Miata is NOT a sports car, it's a sporty car that doesn't have a top.
If I were actually driving a car for SPORT, I would be only concerned with outright speed. Think about it.
You drive for entertainment, hense, you drive a marketing tool. Sport = competition, NOT driving in the mountains on a Sunday afternoon. The reason low level racing still has H-gates is cost, and as the cost of these DSG systems come down, they will work their way into the less professional racing. BTW, you can get a sequential shifter for SCCA production racing. Costs some weight as a penalty. But even the amateurs are moving toward performance over romance.
Eric
wbjones wrote: another though ... how many have ever roll started an automatic equipped vehicle ?
me me me! because of the pump drive arrangement in the Corvair powerglide, they could be roll-started. coast up to about 15 - 20 (iirc but it's been a long time) mph in neutral, then jam the shifter into L and the transaxle would force the engine to spin.
alfadriver wrote:Rusnak_322 wrote: Well a Porsche 911 is a real sports car. So is the Corvette.... How long have they had stick shifts?The ones that are actually competing for a professional wins have not for well over a decade now. Race cars are sports cars, anything else is a marketing idea that has many compromises. Again, what we all think of as Sports Cars came FROM the professional driving ranks back in the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's- including the small bore MG's that won their classes at LeMans and the prototype Ferraris that won outright. That's what we dream of when we think Sports cars, and then extend that to a modern marketing idea for a sporty car. Miata is NOT a sports car, it's a sporty car that doesn't have a top. If I were actually driving a car for SPORT, I would be only concerned with outright speed. Think about it. You drive for entertainment, hense, you drive a marketing tool. Sport = competition, NOT driving in the mountains on a Sunday afternoon. The reason low level racing still has H-gates is cost, and as the cost of these DSG systems come down, they will work their way into the less professional racing. BTW, you can get a sequential shifter for SCCA production racing. Costs some weight as a penalty. But even the amateurs are moving toward performance over romance. Eric
Alright, you have lost all your marbles if you think a sports car is a race car and a Miata is NOT a sports car. Sports car does not equal competition car. Race car equals competition car. I f I race a VW bug or a Volvo wagon, that does not make them sports cars! That makes them race cars. A F1 car or a Audi R10 prototype are race cars. They are not sports cars. A Porsche GT3R is a race car based on a sports car. A Porsche 911 is a sports car (some don't consider it one because it has back seats). A MG or a Miata is the poster child of sports cars. They have been successfully raced, but they were not made to win on racetracks, they were made to be sold to people to drive on the street. The racing connection is where the marketing got involved.
alfadriver wrote: Geez, if you REALLY want visceral feel, drive a Model T.
I used to work with a guy who used a Model T truck as a daily driver, year round, in Minnesota. 
He was extra hard core, to be sure, but I tend that direction myself - I want a radio and a heater in my car, but anything beyond that isn't really necessary. (having said that I used to drive a VW Beetle so I know what it's like not to have a heater.)
Rusnak_322 wrote: Alright, you have lost all your marbles if you think a sports car is a race car and a Miata is NOT a sports car. Sports car does not equal competition car. Race car equals competition car. I f I race a VW bug or a Volvo wagon, that does not make them sports cars! That makes them race cars. A F1 car or a Audi R10 prototype are race cars. They are not sports cars. A Porsche GT3R is a race car based on a sports car. A Porsche 911 is a sports car (some don't consider it one because it has back seats). A MG or a Miata is the poster child of sports cars. They have been successfully raced, but they were not made to win on racetracks, they were made to be sold to people to drive on the street. The racing connection is where the marketing got involved.
I agree, mostly. I think all Race Cars are Sports Cars, but not all Sports Cars are Race Cars. Merriam Webster says Sport: 1a) to amuse oneself; 1b) to engage in a sport.
Racing is a sport. I will amuse myself with my 4 speed Capri this summer. My Capri is not a race car.
< /semantics>
I have a Sports watch but it reports the same time as regular watches. Shouldn't it be faster?
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