Formula 1-2021 Season

Advan046 said:

In reply to Shaun :

Yes this race was a wild experience to go through live. Capped off by a movie style drag race to the finish line, just needed the 22 gear shifts over the 1/8 mile run to the line...and NOS. 

I would not judge F1 by this race alone as it was a first time venue plus some odd radio call timing that we hadn't seen before. 

Still I was totally fixated on the whole event start to finish. Some of my family jumped into and out of the room to see what the heck was going on multiple times during the race. I think the F1 and FIA need to really think about the tone they are allowing to be set and make some adjustments. But I hope they can make an impression on RBR and MB to return to more professional behavior for the final championship deciding race this coming weekend. 

Thanks-  I'll keep that in mind.    It was definitely entertaining!!  Sporting on the other hand... not as much.

I think MBs only hope in Abu Dhabi is to get the front row locked out and run away. I think RBR will be very strong in race trim. 

In reply to Advan046 :

That much I sorted out!!

Shaun said:

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Shaun :

I don't think his intention was to get hit. He was very luck that he didn't sustain any serious damage, and had that taken out the L/R corner or gearbox he would have come off even worse than he did.  He was certainly making it difficult, and likely setting himself up to take the position back, but getting hit on purpose seems unlikely.  

What was his intention then? Given we differ in our respective view on what he was trying to do. I don't understand how even taking a chance on creating contact is part of a legitimate strategy. When I watched the incident closely the brake light comes on when Hamilton is feet away from Verstappen and turning left.  If one stops the vid a few times it will show up.  What was Verstappen trying to achive? I mean besides what I gather is considered the legitimate strategy of mucking around to create a repass which is some pretty circular logic that F1 is going with if giving up a place is the penalty for running a guy off the road (or running off the road to pass a guy, or trying run a guy off the road and then trying to ram him if you miss and run off the road yourself) and it is not a penalty as it comes with a get out of jail free card if you wait long enough. How does braking with a guy 10 feet off the back of your car help with that repass strategy?  The rear of cars is tougher than the front-  the driven wheels requite that, no?  Or was he just pissed?  He seems excitable.

I'm a causal fan of the Americas Cup as well and I was booggled by that mess until it was explained in a piece by somebody that understands the culture and rules of the Americas Cup that the teams build differing technologies then duke it out in court and who ever wins the legal skirmishes over the spec closest to the actual race has the advantage as they have the boat built to the governing spec that they created.  Once I got that I understood the whole thing.

As I've watched this season devolve I was thinking/hoping it would sort itself out with a couple penalties of consequence but it seems to have simply devolved into a brawl quite a bit less sophisticated than the Americas Cup.  I don't care who wins, I'll never have a beer with any of these guys,  they are all great drivers and the technology is fantastic.

I think Max was just pissed that Lewis hadn't gone by at that point and reacted by braking not expecting to be hit. It was a stupid move that wasn't thought out, surprisingly it didn't remove either of them from the podium/race but very easily could have. You mentioned brake lights, that is actually the rain light which would be lit in foul weather but also blinks when the car is recovering energy to the battery, some laps you will see it blinking away for most of  a straight as things are charged back up for/after a push lap. It does not come on with the brakes though.

That's an interesting comparison to the America's cup and definitely fits with F1, all season long Mercedes and Red Bull have gone back and forth on the legality of each others wings trying to get a bit of performance removed from the opposing car. 

Yup Mercedes can only hope to be far enough ahead of Max or he'll make it an I pass or we crash situation.

If Lewis happens to pull off the championship hopefully they saved the bodywork from this race so his W12 can live on with the battle scars like Villenueve's '97 FW19 has in the Williams Heritage collection.

In other news...

https://vimeo.com/653795729

Rough day for Lando. Unbelievable that race control couldn't even give them an answer on where they were starting after the second red flag.

In reply to adam525i :

Thanks for the rain light information.  That puts the episode in a different.. realm.

johndej said:

Yup Mercedes can only hope to be far enough ahead of Max or he'll make it an I pass or we crash situation.

The cynical argument would be that Mercedes should have Bottas crash Max out in Q1 so that he can't get anywhere near the front row. :)

adam525i said:

If Lewis happens to pull off the championship hopefully they saved the bodywork from this race so his W12 can live on with the battle scars like Villenueve's '97 FW19 has in the Williams Heritage collection.

Wild that folks are still referring to Lewis like he's the underdog.  
Going to be an interesting GP weekend for sure.

I have never been a fan of Verstappen and this season he has showed some shameful driving.  From day 1 in F1 he has been a complainer, it's never his fault, he blames the other drivers, blames the car, whatever, anyone but himself.  There was a video where he crashed in practice, got out, and kicked the rear tire as if it was the tire's fault.  No Max, it was your fault for exceeding the car's limits. 

His tactic when under pressure in a corner is forget about the brakes and sort it out in the runoff area.  Intentionally running people off the track, or flying into the corner way too fast, going off track, then coming back on expecting everyone to avoid him and that he'll get away with it.  I wish I could have heard the stewards' first question to him after the Monza crash when he ended up on top of Hamilton, I imagine it was along the lines of "Max, what did you think was going to happen when you were off track and going way to fast to make the next corner?"  And his respnse was probably something worthy of a 7 year old "But he could have gotten out of my way!"  Wah, wah, wah.  What a wanker. And Horner is such an enabler to put up with that behavior.

It's a shame because he's obviously such a talented driver.  If only he could learn some maturity and let his driving do the talking instead of crashing into people when he doesn't get his way.  What a brat.

SnowMongoose said:

adam525i said:

If Lewis happens to pull off the championship hopefully they saved the bodywork from this race so his W12 can live on with the battle scars like Villenueve's '97 FW19 has in the Williams Heritage collection.

Wild that folks are still referring to Lewis like he's the underdog.  
Going to be an interesting GP weekend for sure.

Given how far back he was a few races ago, well... And he's still technically behind even though they are even on points.  

cmcgregor (Forum Supporter) said:

In other news...

https://vimeo.com/653795729

Rough day for Lando. Unbelievable that race control couldn't even give them an answer on where they were starting after the second red flag.

This has to be a tough ending to the season for McLaren- especially after winning at Monza.  I know I thought they had really turned a major corner, and would be securing 3rd place overall.  But it has just not come together.  Whereas Ferrari's effort of just keeping still has pretty much secured the 3rd place standing.

adam525i said:

Shaun said:

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Shaun :

I don't think his intention was to get hit. He was very luck that he didn't sustain any serious damage, and had that taken out the L/R corner or gearbox he would have come off even worse than he did.  He was certainly making it difficult, and likely setting himself up to take the position back, but getting hit on purpose seems unlikely.  

What was his intention then? Given we differ in our respective view on what he was trying to do. I don't understand how even taking a chance on creating contact is part of a legitimate strategy. When I watched the incident closely the brake light comes on when Hamilton is feet away from Verstappen and turning left.  If one stops the vid a few times it will show up.  What was Verstappen trying to achive? I mean besides what I gather is considered the legitimate strategy of mucking around to create a repass which is some pretty circular logic that F1 is going with if giving up a place is the penalty for running a guy off the road (or running off the road to pass a guy, or trying run a guy off the road and then trying to ram him if you miss and run off the road yourself) and it is not a penalty as it comes with a get out of jail free card if you wait long enough. How does braking with a guy 10 feet off the back of your car help with that repass strategy?  The rear of cars is tougher than the front-  the driven wheels requite that, no?  Or was he just pissed?  He seems excitable.

I'm a causal fan of the Americas Cup as well and I was booggled by that mess until it was explained in a piece by somebody that understands the culture and rules of the Americas Cup that the teams build differing technologies then duke it out in court and who ever wins the legal skirmishes over the spec closest to the actual race has the advantage as they have the boat built to the governing spec that they created.  Once I got that I understood the whole thing.

As I've watched this season devolve I was thinking/hoping it would sort itself out with a couple penalties of consequence but it seems to have simply devolved into a brawl quite a bit less sophisticated than the Americas Cup.  I don't care who wins, I'll never have a beer with any of these guys,  they are all great drivers and the technology is fantastic.

I think Max was just pissed that Lewis hadn't gone by at that point and reacted by braking not expecting to be hit. It was a stupid move that wasn't thought out, surprisingly it didn't remove either of them from the podium/race but very easily could have. You mentioned brake lights, that is actually the rain light which would be lit in foul weather but also blinks when the car is recovering energy to the battery, some laps you will see it blinking away for most of  a straight as things are charged back up for/after a push lap. It does not come on with the brakes though.

 

 

This is the more logical answer. None of this was well thought out. These decisions are made quickly with adrenaline and frustration. I'm guessing many of you haven't worked with aggressive drivers before. It's never boring, and you always know they're trying as hard as you are to win.  

In reply to R56fanatic (Forum Supporter) :

I think the prototypical F1 driver is highly aggressive and unapologetic. His reactions are the psychological games played by Mercedes in practice, qualiy and in the race. Max does not have the advantage of  a Bottas to play mind games on Hamilton. He is only 24 years old, not to say he will mature, but I cut him some slack. I though that Hamilton would have ran away with the championship after the break in August. I think people discount how manipulative Toto Wolf is, and how that plans into the success Mercedes. I still calling it a Prost/Senna crash in the last race and Hamilton wins when Toto runs up on the FIA. I am happy that Hamilton isn't going to cruze to another championship

trigun7469 said:

In reply to R56fanatic (Forum Supporter) :

I think the prototypical F1 driver is highly aggressive and unapologetic. His reactions are the psychological games played by Mercedes in practice, qualiy and in the race. Max does not have the advantage of  a Bottas to play mind games on Hamilton. He is only 24 years old, not to say he will mature, but I cut him some slack. I though that Hamilton would have ran away with the championship after the break in August. I think people discount how manipulative Toto Wolf is, and how that plans into the success Mercedes. I still calling it a Prost/Senna crash in the last race and Hamilton wins when Toto runs up on the FIA. I am happy that Hamilton isn't going to cruze to another championship

He may be 24, but this is also his SEVENTH season in Formula 1. 

And he has matured over those 7 years - although we're starting to see the cracks now that the pressure is high. It's time to stop cutting him slack, it's all that slack (along with the toxic Red Bull culture) that has formed him into the driver he is.

It'll be really interesting if Vettel ever talks candidly about what it was like driving for that team during his run, especially in the hybrid era when they weren't dominant. I have to say I'm really looking forward to Vettel becoming a commentator like Jenson Button has after retirement.

trigun7469 said:

In reply to R56fanatic (Forum Supporter) :

I think the prototypical F1 driver is highly aggressive and unapologetic. His reactions are the psychological games played by Mercedes in practice, qualiy and in the race. Max does not have the advantage of  a Bottas to play mind games on Hamilton. He is only 24 years old, not to say he will mature, but I cut him some slack. I though that Hamilton would have ran away with the championship after the break in August. I think people discount how manipulative Toto Wolf is, and how that plans into the success Mercedes. I still calling it a Prost/Senna crash in the last race and Hamilton wins when Toto runs up on the FIA. I am happy that Hamilton isn't going to cruze to another championship

Not a comeback or a challenge, but what psychological games have been played by MB? 

Data showed the well reported "gamesmanship" a few races back regarding Lewis following a slow train of cars out of the pitlane wasn't gamesmanship at all.

Bottas didn't create a larger gap to Lewis than was allowed during the safety car today. Based on data.

When forming the grid for a restart MB did their own warm up and followed the rules. And those rules meant that MB could try to bunch up the grid behind them to avoid sitting on the grid longer than they should. Max could have also bunched up the grid. 

It was apparent that Max has been getting more audio clips lately. Not sure if that means he is saying more broadcastable things than before or if he truely is getting more chatty and complaining more. But I have read a several comments about MB playing psychological games which I assume would mean they are doing things obviously outside or on the edge of the rules to mess with Max. I want to understand what people are talking about. 

In reply to Advan046 :

Another +1 request to post the MB mind games.  

In reply to Advan046 :

It really got going around the British Grand Prix when Hamilton punted Verstappen off the track (and out of the race) and was handed a meaningless 10-second penalty (Hamilton won by more than 10 seconds and Verstappen was a DNF and had to go to hospital) and Horner called for a 1-race ban for Hamilton since the FIA found him at fault. Most of the "head games" are just Toto and Horner and really are just quips and sound bites. 

In reply to Advan046 :

There are little things you can do in an attmept to unsettle the oppsition:

Hang back the maximum number of car lengths so that your competitor will sit on grid longer than anyone else. 

Hang back or go slow enough that the safety car slows down to bunch up the field; if your number 2 driver is back a few cars they can do this in an effort to unsettle your opponent. 

Number 2 driver slightly balk your opponent; not enough to get in trouble with the Stewards but enough to unsettle your opponent. 

All you have to do is listen to the radio transmissions and find out what your opponent is complaining about. Verstappen is not the first driver to behave as he does and his personality type is easier to unsettle...............not to say that anything Mercedes is doing is actually working on this front but that wouldn't stop a team from trying.

Mercedes mind games (not in order):

• Hamilton hitting Verstappen in Great Britain, resulting in a DNF for Max and a win for Hamilton with a meaningless penalty. Toto and Horner spend the next 2 weeks verbally assaulting each other.
• Hamilton DQ'd from Sao Paulo GP for an illegal wing.
• Mercedes wings caught flexing with on board footage during the Brazilian GP resulting in a load test rule change that did impact Mercedes speed (7.7 km/h quicker at Brazil to 3.4 km/h quicker in Qatar)
• Mercedes puts engine #6 in Bottas' car for the US GP (rules are 3 maximum) leading to accusations of running "hot" engines that they know will fail because the grid-drop for a PU change is chump change.
• Hamilton comes out of the pits in Monza and squeezes Max into 2, who doesn't back off, causing a collision that take them both out. No action is taken during the race, but Toto complains to the FIA the whole time and post-race they find Verstappen predominantly at fault and give him a 3-spot grid penalty into the next race. This pisses Horner off because Hamilton did not get the same penalty in Great Britain.
• Bottas hits Norris and Perez (taking him out) on lap 1 of the Hungarian Grand Prix, which also damages the rear of Verstappen's car leading to a poor finish (9th). Bottas is penalized. (Coincidentally, remember when Vettel finished second here? And then there was something wrong with getting the fuel out of the bladder and the FIA wouldn't accept the fuel flow data, weights, or cutting the bladder open and his finish got thrown out promoting Hamilton to 2nd? Yeah, that's gonna decide the championship.)

Do you all not remember watching this season? Also, Verstappen had 0 penalty points the whole season until Monza while Hamilton had a moment where was facing a possible Superlicense suspension for penalty points. Just to jog your memory on who is the mature driver (Note, it's neither of them)

Tom1200 said:

In reply to Advan046 :

There are little things you can do in an attmept to unsettle the oppsition:

Hang back the maximum number of car lengths so that your competitor will sit on grid longer than anyone else. 

Hang back or go slow enough that the safety car slows down to bunch up the field; if your number 2 driver is back a few cars they can do this in an effort to unsettle your opponent. 

Number 2 driver slightly balk your opponent; not enough to get in trouble with the Stewards but enough to unsettle your opponent. 

All you have to do is listen to the radio transmissions and find out what your opponent is complaining about. Verstappen is not the first driver to behave as he does and his personality type is easier to unsettle...............not to say that anything Mercedes is doing is actually working on this front but that wouldn't stop a team from trying.

Seems that every team has done that at some point.

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

I like you and I like what you do but that is like a Fox news or CNN report!

- I'm just some hack so what I think of the Silverstone deal doesn't matter, but Randy Probst does know something.

- The wing thing is BS from everyone (well the two that we are all talking about), flapping wings, flexing wings, failed wings, fixed wings. Unless you are getting Red Bull on a drip straight from the spice girls you have to call that a rule exploitation from both.

- Engine and component changes were discussed at length a week or two ago and yes MB has put in more engines, RB has put in more pieces, it's pretty darn close when looked at in totality. I think Keith posted the facts on that. 

- Other than the most rabid Max fans see Max as the aggressor in that one and most of the other corner to corner incidents this year. I will concede that Lewis ran him off once this weekend but that is at most half the times that Max ran Lewis off this weekend.

- Bottas's drive into the corner at Hungary was not his finest, I am pretty sure that wasn't a team order though so hard to point that out as a head game.

In reply to New York Nick :

Can it be both a CNN and Fox report at the same time? I don't like either team at all. I tried to give just facts (like Mercedes speed drop amount and who the FIA penalized and by how much).