FR-S and BRZ sales are plummeting?

I'll never buy anything with a Subaru engine again after my experience with my Legacy.

So I bought a Miata GT last fall.

The top is defective.

I'd bet that the majority of people on this board who said they wanted one really meant that they wanted to buy one used.

I would have bought one...but my 12 year old 350Z has 100hp more, is paid off and fills the same toy/track/hooning car desires just fine...granted, she's a fatty compared to the twins curb weight, but still. Sadly, I lack the funding to buy all the cars I desire.

I do really like the twins though, and I'm glad they've enjoyed pretty solid sales. Here's to praying they aren't a one and done deal, so I can buy a cheap one used.

Our local Subie dealer can't keep them on the lot. They rarely have one in the showroom anymore.
There must be a dealer hording them somewhere.

petegossett wrote: I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I'm never spending the money for a new car - or even a nice car - as long as I live anyplace that has winter.

Nailed it. Plus I'm way too cheap to pay $25k for a single purpose car. I'd probably be just as happy flogging on a bare bones sedan similar to a Lada as I would one of these. Plus I'd probably have $15k-$18k left over for Vodka and mods, assuming I bought it new.

I went up and test drove one and it just didn't do enough for me to consider it over the SW20 I already have. The only thing it did better than it's 24 Y/O cousin is haul longer loads. I think my next car honestly will be an early NC with a 2.5L transplant. Of course the way the SW20 is holding up, it may be a long time since it only has 95K miles on it.

As an FRS owner I felt I should make a couple of comments. In reference to the OP's point of falling sales, it does not surprise me but does disappoint me. It is often bizarre and inexplicable to me why certain cars are more popular than others. I for one am just glad that they produced the car so I could buy one. As to the merits of the twins themselves, obviously I like them as I bought one. Simplest explanation is this is the cheapest, RWD, hard top, nominal 4 seater, fun to drive, low operating costs, new car I could find. I daily drive mine 30 miles per day in Nebraska weather. It is a surprisingly versatile car. It does have it's faults but so does every car on the market. Thanks for reading my rambling post. Jon

mad_machine wrote: 60,000 is a failure in three years? I don't think the BMW 318ti sold a third that many in it's 4 year run here in the states. Now that was a sales failure

That is low volume... The lexus RX is about 114k annually in sales. The camry is closer to 450k annually. Toyota likes making money not loosing it.

fidelity101 wrote:

mad_machine wrote: 60,000 is a failure in three years? I don't think the BMW 318ti sold a third that many in it's 4 year run here in the states. Now that was a sales failure

That is low volume... The lexus RX is about 114k annually in sales. The camry is closer to 450k annually. Toyota likes making money not loosing it.

Reread Driven5's post, then stop comparing a niche sports car to a Camry.

Meanwhile... trucks with 4.5' beds and average 12mpgs are going off the rails!

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/ford-f-150-svt-raptor-sales-hit-record-highs-company-says.html

Mr_Clutch42 wrote:

mad_machine wrote: 60,000 is a failure in three years? I don't think the BMW 318ti sold a third that many in it's 4 year run here in the states. Now that was a sales failure

I'm going to check sales numbers, but 60,000 seems low because the Camaro and Mustang sold way more than that in one year, even though they're different cars. I think the Miata's sales are dropping some, too. What I find the most odd is that only 15 Golf Rs were sold last year.

There are two sides to this good or bad question.

From a market standpoint, 20k a year in the sports car market (which this pretty much only appeals to) is really, really good. That's double the Miata, which also has the cute small car market (somewhat).

It's not a practical sedan or coupe, so don't compare it with a Lexus or anything like that; it's also not a pony car, nothing like a Mustang or Camaro- it's the raw sports car market. Miata, Corvette, Boxter, S2000 ext. Since it's price range is the Miata, it's doing quite a bit better than that.

So on one hand, it's a resounding success.

The problem is that in terms of cost to make, it's more S2000 than Miata. The Miata has one HUGE advantage- it uses an engine that's mass produced in the multiple hundreds of thousands range. Especially the NC- where I suspect that the duratec/MZR engine sold well over a million a year for quite a while.

Whereas the BRZ/FRS has a totally unique engine that's part subaru and part toyota, and is only sold in this car. I bet that most of the parts are unique to this engine, too. So while it won't have the same high end parts that the S2000 needed to hit 9000rpm, the relaive cost of the engine will be really, really close to that. And the engine is the reason the S2000 was $10k more than a Miata.

20k/year may be enough to pay the $1B to design and develop the engine as well as the extra cost to make a unique motor. But I don't see that based on it's market cost. If Subaru starts using that engine someplace else, it would help a ton (I don't see Toyota doing that at all).

Still, for what it is, 20k a year is really, really good. Better than the Miata, and slightly better than the Solstace pair were at their best.

alfadriver wrote: Still, for what it is, 20k a year is really, really good. Better than the Miata, and slightly better than the Solstace pair were at their best.

So you beat GM (the compromise king) at sports cars? thats... well... um... er... impressive?

All jokes and kidding aside, I believe you are exactly right about the special parts and the engine being the keeper of the miata but the killer of the twins.

I still don't know why they didn't just grab a subaru boxer. That would make the power equation really easy to fix too, as subaru has that in spades with STi.

Swank Force One wrote: What better cars are out there for $25k?

An E46 M3?

Slightly used Coyote powered Mustang?

C5 Z06 Corvette?

Solstice GXP?

Can you still get a Lotus Elise at that price?

This is the problem with marketing to enthusiasts... they often aren't afraid to cross shop a new car with something used, or even with something completely absurd.

calteg wrote:

fidelity101 wrote:

mad_machine wrote: 60,000 is a failure in three years? I don't think the BMW 318ti sold a third that many in it's 4 year run here in the states. Now that was a sales failure

That is low volume... The lexus RX is about 114k annually in sales. The camry is closer to 450k annually. Toyota likes making money not loosing it.

Reread Driven5's post, then stop comparing a niche sports car to a Camry.

60,000 in 3 years is terrible, for Toyota.

(speaking from a business perspective)

Now if this was tesla? I'd say 60k in 3 years is really good.

I considered trading my R53 MINI CooperS in on one of the twins. To me they're kind of in the same vein. The MINI never has more than two people in it, it's nice for me to travel in and is fun ,as well as economical(sort of). The FRS/BRZ checks all the same boxes. I have yet to even test drive one though. I was all pumped up and ready when the news was first released, but then I saw them in person and the styling just doesn't do it for me. These aren't cars that will still be stylish 20 years from now, like a 240Z, for example. Mt attention is now focused on the ND Miata and I'll drive the MINI a while longer. When the time comes it will be replaced with some sort of small hatchback,CUV, wagon from a used car lot.

The first time I test drove one of the twins, I was massively disappointed. The engine felt anemic and lazy, it was slower than a minivan, etc. I had to drive one a couple more times to be willing to pull the trigger.

They're great cars, but they're really outclassed in a lot of ways by cars in their price range.

You can get a base 370z, 2014 Mustang GT, 3.8 Genesis Coupe, and some other new cars for the same price as a BRZ limited.

You can get a V6/EB mustang, V6 Camaro, WRX, Focus ST, Fiesta ST, GTI, Abarth, Miata, etc. These cars usually cost the same or less and offer similar to much better performance.

Every FRS seems to have $3k worth of dealer add-ons, and depreciation really bites them in the ass.

I love mine, but a lot of people don't care about "feel" when they have trouble merging because of a minivan or family sedan.

I totally would've bought one if I could afford to pay new-car money for...anything.

I hardly ever see them on my commute. I think I saw more GTRs last year. There is one that's stanced out... I always notice it because the tires are outside the fenders by at least 3 inches in the back, and I wonder how that works out on our less than smooth highways.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: What better cars are out there for $25k?

An E46 M3? Slightly used Coyote powered Mustang? C5 Z06 Corvette? Solstice GXP? Can you still get a Lotus Elise at that price? This is the problem with marketing to enthusiasts... they often aren't afraid to cross shop a new car with something used, or even with something completely absurd.

When it comes down to it, I think he's right. The type of folks typically willing to pay new-car money for a toy are looking for things a bit more upmarket, and the type looking for pure driving experiences are looking for less cash than new-car to get it.

When I think about them, I am wondering how cheap they will be in ten years, maybe my son can get one for his first car. Better than my ratty Camaro, that's for sure.

For comparison, Ford hopes to move about 5,000 of the Fiesta ST per year in the US. Granted, it is not a unique platform, but the market for small sporty cars must not be very big. 20,000 per year is probably the high end of the current market.

I wanted one as a daily driver (I already have an MX-5) but the rear seat is useless. My 13 year old son had to fit back there and he doesn't. He's not that large either. So that is what killed it for me.

And before people point out that its not supposed to be a family car, my family car is currently a 2000 Civic Si that has a useable back seat and isn't that much larger than the 86.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: What better cars are out there for $25k?

An E46 M3? Slightly used Coyote powered Mustang? C5 Z06 Corvette? Solstice GXP? Can you still get a Lotus Elise at that price? This is the problem with marketing to enthusiasts... they often aren't afraid to cross shop a new car with something used, or even with something completely absurd.

Sure. And i do the same. But if i'm shopping for a new car, i'd think for the purpose of discussion that we were talking about new cars.

If i had $25k cash, i think the BRZ/FRS would be pretty low on my list. But if i'm financing a $25k car? Paints an entirely different picture.

alfadriver wrote: The problem is that in terms of cost to make, it's more S2000 than Miata. The Miata has one HUGE advantage- it uses an engine that's mass produced in the multiple hundreds of thousands range. Especially the NC- where I suspect that the duratec/MZR engine sold well over a million a year for quite a while. Whereas the BRZ/FRS has a totally unique engine that's part subaru and part toyota, and is only sold in this car. I bet that most of the parts are unique to this engine, too. So while it won't have the same high end parts that the S2000 needed to hit 9000rpm, the relaive cost of the engine will be really, really close to that. And the engine is the reason the S2000 was $10k more than a Miata. 20k/year may be enough to pay the $1B to design and develop the engine as well as the extra cost to make a unique motor. But I don't see that based on it's market cost. If Subaru starts using that engine someplace else, it would help a ton (I don't see Toyota doing that at all). Still, for what it is, 20k a year is really, really good. Better than the Miata, and slightly better than the Solstace pair were at their best.

It's not a unique motor. It's used in other subarus. Just because it was the first to use that motor doesn't mean it's the only one.

Swank Force One wrote: Sure. And i do the same. But if i'm shopping for a new car, i'd think for the purpose of discussion that we were talking about new cars. If i had $25k cash, i think the BRZ/FRS would be pretty low on my list. But if i'm financing a $25k car? Paints an entirely different picture.

That is part of the problem with marketing to some enthusiasts like me. I have no interest (pardon the pun) in financing a car again. Ever. It would require a very, very compelling new car to get me to consider a car loan when keeping an 18 year old car on the road is still a viable option for me as a daily driver.