Keith Tanner said:No V8Roadsters parts in an ND V8, it was 100% engineered and built in-house at FM ;)If the Yank tanks can have a special class that's wide open, I don't see why the imports can't! Heck, Camaros weren't made in the US for a long time.
Had no idea you guys did all the ND stuff in house, that's cool. And yeah, I had a fourth gen SS, I know all about that cars' origins, eh. =P
Metric and sae hardware on the same car took some getting used to, for sure.
spacecadet said:Oh no... more like 3200-3300 for the Camaro... mark Scroggs DS 2017 national championship winning 4cyl 2016 Camaro base model is up for sale and he has weighed it at 3170 with 1/8 tank and light wheels.
Looks like I was wrong. Guess I got them flipped. Wikipedia (I know, super reliable) has the Mustang at 3550 - 3650 ish with the ecoboost, and Car and Driver puts the 1LE turbo at 3430. Both can be put on a decent diet, but the mustang does start out with a 35hp and 55lb-ft advantage.
I want to really like this car... I really do, but this seems like a semi-factory backed racing effort dominating amateur autosports. It’s a lot like that long gone TV show pros vs joes where pro athletes destroyed the wanna bes.
This thread even had me dreaming of trying to hang in an S550 Mustang maybe an Ecoboost or a full on supercharged Coyote.... then I relearned they weigh 3800 lbs! Oh heck no.
Working for GM the primary benefit that these guys get with the team is seat time.
It would be pretty easy to replicate the car that these guys have built. And they are 110% transparent in what they have built.
And the thing about it is the head of the team whose name is failing me who won cam C in 2017 he's also the guy who wrote the e-diff tune for the reflash thats available for the SS1LE from your local dealer. And they developed the tune using drive time with the team and so everybody else can now go by the tune in the form of a reflash and install it on their own 6th gen Camaro in CAM.
These guys win because they are damn good drivers and because they can read a rule set. They built a car that makes decent power, but it makes decent power, all the time and it's at absolute minimum weight with the maximum amount of tire.
So yes these guys do get an advantage because they work for GM and because they are able to gain seat time in the cars through work. But ultimately they are fantastic drivers and that is the essence of what autocross is, it is a driving competition and these guys just bring really sharp swords and their talent shines through.
Also cam is a builder's class and of all the cars in cam you could probably replicate this car cheaper than a lot of the other builds in the class.
In reply to AnthonyGS :
Good friend of mine runs an S197 in CAM-C in northern Utah, and is rather competitive, but I'm fairly certain it's 98% driver mod in his case. I think he'd be pretty tough to catch in an S550...
spacecadet said:Working for GM the primary benefit that these guys get with the team is seat time.
It would be pretty easy to replicate the car that these guys have built. And they are 110% transparent in what they have built.
And the thing about it is the head of the team whose name is failing me who won cam C in 2017 he's also the guy who wrote the e-diff tune for the reflash thats available for the SS1LE from your local dealer. And they developed the tune using drive time with the team and so everybody else can now go by the tune in the form of a reflash and install it on their own 6th gen Camaro in CAM.
These guys win because they are damn good drivers and because they can read a rule set. They built a car that makes decent power, but it makes decent power, all the time and it's at absolute minimum weight with the maximum amount of tire.
So yes these guys do get an advantage because they work for GM and because they are able to gain seat time in the cars through work. But ultimately they are fantastic drivers and that is the essence of what autocross is, it is a driving competition and these guys just bring really sharp swords and their talent shines through.
The anti-lag tune and not having to worry about replacement turbos is a big help as well.
Even hardcore autoX guys likely wouldn't be cool with constantly replacing hot parts like a turbo.
te72 said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
I said the same thing about my Supra above haha. Born in Japan, build in 'Merica!
I mean, truthfully, by the time you slap Wilwoods, Fox shocks, an LS, V8 Roadsters and Flyin Miata parts all together in a shop in Colorado... what's not American about that? Although if they won't let us play in CAM, I really see a need for a similar class for import cars. Maybe one for European and one for Asian, or just mix it all together. Perhaps even have a face off between the two, CAM and our import class?
Your post made me think that if cobras are allowed in CAM then so should a V8 Miata. Maybe if Flyin' miata can take delivery of a white-body instead of a complete car it would be allowed?
z31maniac said:spacecadet said:Working for GM the primary benefit that these guys get with the team is seat time.
It would be pretty easy to replicate the car that these guys have built. And they are 110% transparent in what they have built.
And the thing about it is the head of the team whose name is failing me who won cam C in 2017 he's also the guy who wrote the e-diff tune for the reflash thats available for the SS1LE from your local dealer. And they developed the tune using drive time with the team and so everybody else can now go by the tune in the form of a reflash and install it on their own 6th gen Camaro in CAM.
These guys win because they are damn good drivers and because they can read a rule set. They built a car that makes decent power, but it makes decent power, all the time and it's at absolute minimum weight with the maximum amount of tire.
So yes these guys do get an advantage because they work for GM and because they are able to gain seat time in the cars through work. But ultimately they are fantastic drivers and that is the essence of what autocross is, it is a driving competition and these guys just bring really sharp swords and their talent shines through.
The anti-lag tune and not having to worry about replacement turbos is a big help as well.
Even hardcore autoX guys likely wouldn't be cool with constantly replacing hot parts like a turbo.
but anyone who's not GM could replace the turbo with something aftermarket that can handle the heat.
I.E. The Big Bad Wolf S2000
People like to complain about people who build a better mousetrap in builders classes.
This is the nature of a builders class.
In reply to pushrod36 :
That's a good point and one I hadn't thought of, despite seeing a Cobra in the Utah CAM class. Suppose the difference between your two examples and my Supra, my car still uses a Toyota engine. I'm gonna see what I can do to convince the Utah region to adopt an import equivalent class. =)
It's been awhile but winning an AutoX class by 1.2 seconds is huge! My buddy and I chased a four cyl. Camaro with Vettes at the "Corvette Driving Experience" in Bowling Green and could barely keep up. It had the 1LE suspension and maybe some tires but was stock otherwise according to the instructors. Point is if you ran one of these Camaros in your region you can probably be competitive and maybe only win by 0.5 seconds. There will always be manufacturers or vendors involved in amateur racing and finishing second or third to them is really like finishing first or second. If you think their car is not legal or does not belong in the class - file a protest. If you're not happy then get the SCCA to create Pro Classes. Or run another class. Rules are part of the racing game like it or not.
almonza said:It's been awhile but winning an AutoX class by 1.2 seconds is huge! My buddy and I chased a four cyl. Camaro with Vettes at the "Corvette Driving Experience" in Bowling Green and could barely keep up. It had the 1LE suspension and maybe some tires but was stock otherwise according to the instructors. Point is if you ran one of these Camaros in your region you can probably be competitive and maybe only win by 0.5 seconds. There will always be manufacturers or vendors involved in amateur racing and finishing second or third to them is really like finishing first or second. If you think their car is not legal or does not belong in the class - file a protest. If you're not happy then get the SCCA to create Pro Classes. Or run another class. Rules are part of the racing game like it or not.
Well said!!
I've seen a couple of other articles over the years that mention GMs 2.0 turbo, and didn't like the throttle response. This one takes the cake. So desperate for throttle response they install an anti-lag system?
In this GM Authority article: https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/02/the-story-of-gms-scca-autocross-winning-camaro-1le-turbo/
“They realized the 2.0-liter’s throttle response was holding them back…” So, GMs own publication admits the throttle response is a problem on race day. And if it was an issue with super-conservative software, that would be an easy fix for the team, right?
If the rally-style anti-lag system fixes the problem, it implies to me that GM screwed up something with the turbocharger design.
HOW??? It’s a twin-scroll turbo, made in the 21st century. Designing one and matching the size to your engine doesn’t take any arcane powers. Turbochargers are a known quantity in engineering.
So I’m interested to know what went wrong.
Did they make the turbine with a particularly cheap alloy that ended up with a lot of rotating mass?
Where “hybrid” turbos became mainstream and aren’t even called hybrids any more, did GM stick their little 2L with something equivalent to a straight T3?
Is the exhaust manifold really restrictive? Is the downpipe a convoluted POS?
Whatever they did, it seems to me that they should know better.
And here comes another comparison to the Mustang: It seems to me the EcoBoost Mustang doesn't have such lag issues. When I rented one and drove it on a mountain pass, it seemed like the biggest issue was the slushbox wanting to use 7th gear going uphill. It kept the engine at really low RPM and it felt like it was bogging down all the time, until I learned to hit the paddles and override it. Hairpin turn + 3rd gear = Wheee! :)
I agree - the turbo issue is a bit puzzling.
This engine produces 275 horsepower and 295 lb.-ft. of torque which is a bit more than earlier iterations of the engine, but the LNF which I have in my Solstice coupe had 260/260 and with a GM approved retune it had 290/340. There was no significant lag (how come any hesitation on an engine with a turbo is labeled 'lag' while a naturally aspirated engine just having to build up RPM while heading up to the torque peak of the engine isn't?)
They say that they are getting around 100/100 more power and torque from tuning etc. Well my street car is tuned to 375 bhp/375 Tq which is very close to what they claim (mine was done by using a stock turbo with a larger exducer plus a retune) and although I have an almost insignificantly increased turbo lag compared to the stock engine, it isn't something that I would have thought would warrant some system to retain boost when off the accelerator.
A friend used to road race an early BMW turbo and the lag was so bad that he had to nail the accelerator as he went into a corner under hard braking (with his left foot) so he'd have boost by the time he wanted it, halfway through the corner.
Under those circumstances some sort of measure to maintain boost would have been of possible use, but on the Camaro I just can't see any reason to resort to something that obviously trashes the turbo in very quick order. Unless they switched from the stock turbo line that has the bearing cooled by both oil and water circulation to one without the latter, but I can't see them doing that - they would usually opt for another twin scroll turbo with greater capacity.
Sure would like to see an explanation of why they are keeping it spooled and just how that is trashing the turbos.
A tenth can make a difference over an autocross course. Lag you wouldn't notice on the street would show up on the timeslip.
BigIron said:A tenth can make a difference over an autocross course. Lag you wouldn't notice on the street would show up on the timeslip.
Sure, but there have been many Kappas (Solstice. Sky) competing in SCCA events and doing well - and none of them have even considered resorting to the sort of kamikaze resorts these guys did. I'd say that they are barking up the wrong tree when a turbo lasts weeks instead of decades
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