GRM Exclusive Reveal: Exocet Spec-A

Very happy to see you guys are still moving forward with this project and keeping a focus on simplicicity/fun to drive/low cost. Go Warren!!

windshields.

next thing you guys are going to want a heater

In reply to v8exocet:

Nah, heaters are for sissies. I wouldnt mind a stereo though

ducks and runs

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

im gonna put one on mine. Use wakeboard speaker cans and an amp. i can deal with the 5 lbs of weight for tunes

4cylndrfury wrote: I wouldnt mind a stereo though

Hah, I'm right with you! A rivnut-based removable mounting system for a set of marine speakers and a simple amp with a line-in / bluetooth receiver is on my list. Way down the list, but it's on it. People need their wob wobs.

I consider myself to pretty hard core when it comes to specialty cars. I've built a number of them. None have had heaters, side windows, roofs, or a stereo. I drive them a lot. I put 38,000 miles on one of them in 18 months. The day I finished it (April) I drove it from New Hampshire to California and back. It was 34 degrees and spitting snow when I left. It stayed that cold all the way to Nashville, Tn then turned brutally hot.

For a track car I can see not needing or wanting a windshield. But, most states require one for street use. If I were building an Exocet I would want to drive it on the street. I can easily add a one. But I understand a potential customer liking a "factory" option for it. Adding a windshield does not necessarily mean that heaters, roofs, ect, follow. I also understand that a manufacturer of a product needs to define what they offer and stick to it. Otherwise the special requests will kill the bottom line.

I just remembered that I do have a soft top with side windows for my latest car. It is a self built Cobra tribute. It is not the car I put 38,000 miles on and I have only used the top once.

Just to reiterate, we ARE developing a glass windshield. We've just placed a lot of other things higher on our priority list, really cool stuff I specifically have been told not blab about. Now I understand why PR guys are so important, engineers like me can give everyone the wrong impression about how we are serving our customers.

All of the windshield suggestions we've had so far have been phrased in the form of "some people might want a windshield" rather than "I would buy one if it had a glass windshield". No one that has placed a deposit has requested we supply a windshield or even the acrylic wind deflector (yes, we have an 8" tall deflector option). As soon as we get a serious potential customer that wants one, it will shoot up our priority list. If someone wants one right now, there are many options such as boat windshields, having a custom 2D pattern cut, and the solutions used on Locosts. We'll definitely help you guys out if you want to go that route, I'm happy to draw up a custom windshield in CAD. We're very flexible.

If it was a quick thing to develop, we'd definitely get it done to better the appeal of the Exocet in the few states with glass windshield requirements. Unfortunately, doing it right costs a significant amount of money and/or time. Here's the Atom3's glass windshield, which took "one year of extensive design and development". It appeared in 2008, 12 years after the debut of the car. It is a $2900 option, and like the Atom's floors, it breaks if you put your weight on it. I also worry a bit about that top edge in a high speed frontal collision, ours would certainly have a full surround.

We're not dragging our feet on the issue, and we really do care about those of you that might need a glass windshield. It's just a bigger undertaking than you might think, and alternative solutions exist. When we offer a windshield option, it will be well thought out, safe, and not cost as much as 50% of a whole kit.

FWIW, I think that most successful kit builders find that the add-ons are a profit center. I remember how the Caterham guys would spring for the carbon-fibre fenders. They'd paint them except for little patches so that the viewer could see that they weren't just anyfender.

But good marketing (and cash flow) would suggest that you want to get an exciting product to market, work out the bugs, then use the add-ons as teasers and ways to keep things fresh.

Warren v wrote: If it was a quick thing to develop, we'd definitely get it done to better the appeal of the Exocet in the few states with glass windshield requirements.

Might want to check to see if it's just a few states or most of them. I suspect it's the latter, actually. It varies from state to state, and it can take a bit of reading. For a few random examples I picked up quickly and easily:

Illinois vehicle code said: Every motor vehicle operated upon the highways of this State shall be equipped with a front windshield which complies with those standards as established pursuant to this Section and Section 12-503 of this Code. This subsection shall not apply to motor vehicles designed and used exclusively for off-highway use, motorcycles, motor-driven cycles, motorized pedalcycles, nor to motor vehicles registered as antique vehicles, expanded-use antique vehicles, custom vehicles, or street rods when the original design of such vehicles did not include front windshields

Now we have to figure out how to register a car as a custom vehicle or street rod in Illinois...

Virginia vehicle inspection guidelines said: any motor vehicle other than a motorcycle that was manufactured, assembled, or reconstructed after July 1, 1970, must be equipped with a windshield.

Texas isn't quite so clear - wipers are required ("a device that is operated or controlled by the operator of the vehicle and that cleans moisture from the windshield") but no mention of the glass itself.

I also suspect that almost every Exocet in the US is going to be registered as the Miata it came from, like a Manx dune buggy. And as long as you don't get a state trooper with a particular bug up his butt, you'll never have a problem running without a windshield.

It's telling that the Atom owner's forum has a section dealing with registration that is very heavily closed so that outsiders (aka law enforcement) does not see how the car is registered. The V8 Atom that Palatov built ended up in town here. When it had an unscheduled meeting with a tree, it became apparent it was registered as a "Bradley Roadster", an old VW kit car. This was a very high-profile car that was actually the impetus for a very specifically worded bill in Oregon designed to make the Ariel Atom legal - even it ended up under a sketchy registration when it left that state. Thus the long delay for an Atom windshield, owners were dealing with, umm, "alternate solutions".

Do you supply an MSO with the kit?

Keith Tanner wrote: It's telling that the Atom owner's forum has a section dealing with registration that is very heavily closed so that outsiders (aka law enforcement) does not see how the car is registered. The V8 Atom that Palatov built ended up in town here. When it had an unscheduled meeting with a tree, it became apparent it was registered as a "Bradley Roadster", an old VW kit car. Thus the long delay for an Atom windshield, owners were dealing with, umm, "alternate solutions". Do you supply an MSO with the kit?

Funnily enough, I was just having a discussion on Reddit about the secretive nature of Atom registration in the US. Yes we do issue completely legit MSOs, we're not banned by name by the DOT/NHTSA, and you don't have to run it as a Miata. I will say a significant proportion of our customers run their Exocets as Miatas and give their insurance company a head's up. I've been pulled over in such a car, the cop just wanted to know more about it, there were no issues with "heavily modified Mazda Miata". It retains the entire subframes and PPF brace, it is close to the old analogue of a "frame", so I can see the argument. We definitely don't recommend that, and Kevin went through a year's worth of dealing with legislators and bureaucrats to jump through all the hoops to make registering with an MSO (Manufacturer Statement of Origin) or MCO (Manufacturer Certificate of Origin) as easy as each state will make it. We have no intentions of ever supplying complete cars, which makes the process possible.

Our standard CYA statement is something along the lines of "you are ultimately responsible for researching and executing the process to make your car legal in your state." We will help you in any way we can, but we cannot guarantee the process, especially when so many states are very vague about their requirements. In VA's example, I can state that the one Exocet in that state has no windshield. There are quite a few MEVs in Texas of the Exocet, Rocket, Eco-Exo and TR1ke variey, and only two have a hint of a windshield.

Everyone, a good resource to find out about your state is here: http://www.bipac.net/page.asp?content=tag_title_toolbox&g=SEMAGA

If you want to improve the mess of kit car registration in the US, support the SEMA Action Network. Their model bills have seen success in 22 states so far, but there is still work to be done. http://www.bipac.net/page.asp?content=model_leg&g=semaga

Actually, the best resource about your state is probably your local library. Or, if they're posted online (like the three states I picked above), the government's website. That's where you're going to find the real answer straight from the source. If there's a discussion, you can point to the verbiage actual law instead of some website. This was recommended to me by the Colorado State Police - when I had questions, they pointed me to their books. And it's definitely up to the owner to do their homework and register the car.

I know that Caterham USA (based in Colorado) used to say they had no problem registering Superlights, despite the lack of a windshield and wipers and a very clear statement in the state laws that said they had to have one. I suspect it often comes down to the state patrolman who does the inspection - if he thinks you're on the up-and-up and you're not building the car out of stolen parts, then the letter of the law might be ignored. The state law is usually quite clear, the grey area comes from the inspector.

It would be interesting to know just how much of the car is required to be retained in order to be "the same car". I seem to recall reading years ago that as long as you kept two of the engine, the frame and the rear axle in the UK then it was still the same and you didn't need a Q plate. You're keeping a pretty significant amount of the Miata with this thing.

I'm not trying to sound alarmist. Just trying to be realistic about potential pitfalls. As I said, I suspect most of them are still Miatas, and those that are now Exocets are running around without any sort of windshield. But it could easily come up if you meet an inspector who's a stickler.

Definitely solid points. Kevin's been importing them from the UK for two years now, and we're friendly with a couple other kit car manufacturers/importers. With a couple dozen cars in as many states, we have yet to have a situation where one was unable to be registered, including difficult states like PA, NY, NJ, and CA.

Another good resource is calling up the local DMV and asking how to talk up the chain to someone that knows the kit car registration process. You won't be the first to ask!

Az. requires an approved glass windshield.

Hasbro wrote: Az. requires an approved glass windshield.

The legal/registration stuff is not what I do at Exomotive, but for what it's worth, I see nothing in AZ law about a glass requirement. Our standard Plexiglas windshield should be fine according to the law, but check with your local DMV. The windshield language is like most states that have been easy to register in:

A.R.S. § 28-957.01 (2010) § 28-957.01. Windshields required A. The following vehicles shall be equipped with an adequate windshield: 1. A passenger vehicle, except a motorcycle, an all-terrain vehicle and a golf cart manufactured or modified before June 17, 1998. 2. A motor truck or truck tractor, except fire trucks, fire engines or other fire apparatus, whether publicly or privately owned. B. This section does not apply to an implement of husbandry or to an antique, classic or horseless carriage automobile if it was not originally equipped with a windshield.

Furthermore, it looks like you'd be exempt from emissions if you are eligible for collectible vehicle insurance (which the Exocet is). Looks like a friendly state to me!

Keith Tanner wrote: a very specifically worded bill in Oregon designed to make the Ariel Atom legal

(a) A bodiless tubular steel chassis that forms the main structural component of the vehicle;... (d) A suspension with both front and rear double unequal length wishbones and inboard, pushrod operated dampers;

If that's not corporate cronyism I don't know what is. They may as well have just called it out by name.

Miatas will soon be 25 year old cars, so in PA they will be eligible for collector/antique plates. Since PA just (incredibly) dropped the photo requirements for obtaining them, an antique tag registered to the donor Miata results in a license plate with no inspection requirements.

i find it hilarious the amount of discussion from people who arent, dont have, or dont ever plan to have an exocet, discussing needing a windshield.

yet out of ALL the kits they sold, noone needed it.

Why is this still even a topic? More info on new cool things!

It's a legitimate discussion, even if you don't think it's as cool as wings. The laws are real, and it makes more sense to be prepared for them than to be taken by surprise. Our Exocet is in production now and I've got a homebuilt in the garage already, I'm not just some killjoy on the internet.

Warren: http://law.justia.com/codes/arizona/2010/title28/28-959.html

A person shall not sell and the department shall not register a new motor vehicle as specified in this section unless the vehicle is equipped with safety glass wherever glass is used in doors, windows and windshields.

well, let us know what you come up with.

To me the most important phrase in this statement is , "wherever glass is used". It does not state that a windshield has to be in place. If a person interprets this statement to mean that a windshield must be there, by the same logic they must also interpret it to mean that the vehicle must have doors and windows as well. reply to Keith Tanner:

PW Fun, you don't get to just read the part you want. Read the first bit that Warren posted:

The following vehicles shall be equipped with an adequate windshield: A passenger vehicle, except a motorcycle, an all-terrain vehicle and a golf cart manufactured or modified before June 17, 1998.

Here's the whole text of the part I posted:

A. A person shall not sell and the department shall not register a new motor vehicle as specified in this section unless the vehicle is equipped with safety glass wherever glass is used in doors, windows and windshields. The safety glass shall be of a type approved by the director. B. This section applies to passenger motor vehicles, other than golf carts, including passenger buses and school buses. For trucks, including truck tractors, the requirements of this section for safety glass apply to all glass used in doors, windows and windshields in the drivers' compartments of the vehicles. C. The director shall compile and publish a list of types of glass by name that are approved by the director and that meet the requirements of this section. D. The director shall not register a new motor vehicle unless it is equipped with an approved type of safety glass. The director shall suspend the registration of any motor vehicle that is subject to this section and that the director finds is not equipped with an approved type of safety glass. The suspension shall continue until the motor vehicle is made to conform to the requirements of this section. E. A person shall not replace glass or glazing materials used in partitions, doors, windows, windshields or wind deflectors in a motor vehicle with a material other than safety glass of a type approved by the director. F. For the purposes of this section, "safety glass" means either: 1. A product composed of glass that is manufactured, fabricated or treated in a manner that substantially prevents shattering and flying of the glass when struck or broken. 2. Other or similar products as approved by the director.

Now, can an original new car registration in AZ use a plastic windshield, as long as the car has never been fitted with anything else? Maybe, the quick searches so far have not come up with that verbiage and the two quotes above do leave that open. You just can't replace plastic with glass. Or there's more to it that we haven't read yet.

It wouldn't be difficult to do an easily removeable Locost-style windshield for an Exocet.A simple frame and side mounts going to the exoskeleton. Yes, flat glass, but it's not as if the car has styling that can be described as anything but "functional" I'll take a look when we have ours to see how it could be implemented - it's just a matter of where it would sit fore-aft to avoid the hood and the gauges.

Whatever, I'm out. Time to leave to go watch a race. It's easier to just stick heads in sand and hope you don't have a problem anyhow.

Keith, screw the windshield discussion where is pics of your in production exocet :)

Yep missed what Warren posted. Only saw your post. In reply to Keith Tanner:

The tribe has spoken. As an alternative to a user-assembled temporary Locost glass windshield, here's a permanent windshield option. It is an 18 gauge steel surround that a professional windshield installer can use to install a flat piece of safety glass on your Exocet. We can supply the drawing for the glass. While it would look nicer with sandblaster-cut radii, it could work with straight edged glass, too. Simply take the drawing to a local glass shop. If you want us to figure that out, we're flexible enough to make it happen, just at a higher cost to you. We could even install it with weatherstripping and ship it with your race chassis. If you get the chassis powdercoated through us, we'll paint the forward-facing part of the surround black for you. If you want a square 1" tube running up vertically along the center (I would), we'll make it happen. Again, we're flexible.

We will install this with a custom jig that ensures it goes in perfectly flat so it won't stress the glass. Anticipated cost: ~$300 without glass or weatherstripping. Cost of the glass will be as reasonable as we can make it.

A high quality, good looking, removable windshield compatible with the Base or Sport is much more difficult to develop, but we will eventually come out with one. On our timeline, it's looking like Mid-2014.

For customers that live in states where it seems like you need a glass windshield, talk to us if you want to pursue a regular Exocet. There are alternative solutions that we (annoying) can't publicly talk about. There are quite a few assembled vehicles in these states that were legally registered without glass, but the DOT/NHTSA has shown they will change policies if only to ruin fun. That's all I can say about that.

PS: I had a friend run the car (sans windshield) through some real CFD software. You might notice the rear wing has moved back and up a few inches to get the cleanest computer air available without sticking the rear wing up above the cage. You guys were right, I was trusting bad data!

Now, back to building the UTCC car...

Jaynen wrote: Keith, screw the windshield discussion where is pics of your in production exocet :)

You'll have to ask Warren