GRM reviews the Volt

tuna55 wrote:

SVreX wrote: using my tax dollars.

So do you use oil? Education? Roads? Everything is subsidized. I am not saying that is good (obviously to many, my politics would dictate the opposite) but the point is that even the Volts direct alternatives (gas powered cars) are subsidized, so you can't take that out on the Volt without taking it out on every other car out there.

That's really not a true statement.

EVERYTHING is NOT subsidized. First off, education, roads, etc. DO NOT meet the definition of subsidy. Those are government services paid for from government revenues. A subsidy is a direct governmental payment to a private industrial or charitable undertaking, generally to secure some service in return.

Furthermore, all the other "subsidies" you can reference are still available to the Volt. It has ADDITIONAL subsidies to those available to other vehicles.

In 35 years my business has NEVER received a subsidy. It has benefited form various services, or incentives, but never a subsidy. I know hundreds of business owners who have NEVER received subsidies.

It's a very important distinction. Subsidies imply having strings attached. There is governmental control of a private entity involved. It is VASTLY different then services typically part of the essence of what government is.

I work hard to avoid doing business with companies who receive subsidies. Therefore, I won't consider the Volt.

Nashco wrote:

SVreX wrote: "Considering the various incentives..." is also an invalid comparison. GM's inability to build the car in a manner that enabled it to compete in the real world without continued financial bailout is shameful. I was thoroughly excited to see the car being developed, and completely disappointed when I saw the pricetag. I rule it out on that issue alone.

Ever consider that the MSRP might be what it is because there IS a tax credit? IIRC, the credit lasts for 200,000+ plug ins and all electric cars, so it's going to be a while before it goes away. When it goes away, I bet the sale price comes down. Maybe not, but only time will tell. Bryce

Good point.

All the more reason for me to not consider it.

Taxes pay for roads, education and similar government supplied services.

I can buy two Elantras, or three Fits for the price of one Volt even with the Government's bribe... err subsidy to purchase from Obama Motors.

Two cars make twice the money in business.

You are, of course, assuming that profit is the goal, as opposed to padding the d@#ned golden parachute with government handout money.

Silly Aussie.

ooops my bad, damn I have become such a radical, profits indeed

If I was a real estate agent selling condos, I would definitely look at the Volt.

But seriously, I think that it is a cool car. I like the four bucket seats, I like the styling, and I like the technology. Then again, I like the CR-Z, so my opinion is just about null here on GRM.

MitchellC wrote: If I was a real estate agent selling condos, I would definitely look at the Volt. But seriously, I think that it is a cool car. I like the four bucket seats, I like the styling, and I like the technology. Then again, I like the CR-Z, so my opinion is just about null here on GRM.

My problem with the CR-Z isn't the drivetrain, it's the styling. I really respect that Honda wants to test this technology with sporting cars. I just seem to be at an age where I don't like any modern car design. Hate high beltlines and small windows. If the staff's impression of the Volt is correct (and I've been trusting them for 25yrs.. ), I agree with them. Maybe it ain't the car for us, but it's damn sure the car for a lot of folks out there. And when they talk about how smoothly it switches from electric to gas, it seems a great leap forward in the technology as well.

I think the irrational hatred for GM by some has certainly tainted any possibility for a rational discussion re: the Volt. The lack of understanding regarding how and why the government promotes/encourages and yes, subsidizes various things is truly staggering. Everything from the space program to medicine is given additional funding. Why should new technology be any different? I did not hear a massive hue and cry about Nissan, Tesla, Fiskar, Toyota or any other companies that have recently received funding and other perks for vehicles that they produce? Why single out GM? Strange, indeed. Bailout? If that's the case, shouldn't we also avoid purchasing Nissan's(sheesh, they needed the French to remain solvent for Pete's sake), Toyota's, the entire Korean industry-or nearly every major auto manufacturer on the planet? All have recieved "bailouts" in one fashion or another. Whether through direct or indirect cash infusions from the motherland or protectionist legislation that has the same effect. GM has taken advantage of federal funding(as have others producing qualifying vehicles) to produce what many consider to be the most advanced vehicle on the planet-and they did it before such well funded rivals as Toyota. Additionally, the Volt has come out on top in every comparo I've read against somewhat similiar vehicles like the new gen Prius and the Leaf. Does it cost more than an equally sized vehicle? Yes-and every dollar is justified considering the leap forward this vehicle represents. The cost will come down over time and hopefully GM will remain at the forefront as these type of cars move closer to mainstream.

I wanted to hate it since I hate GM. But I don't.....completely. I don't like being lied to and GM said for a long time that the IC engine does not power the wheels directly. Now it's commonly known that it does, and always has. That being said, I like it.
I do wish it could be produced so the masses could afford it (who really WANTS a $40,000 Cobalt?). And I'll throw out the apples to oranges comparison. My 1992 Benz approaches 35 mpg on the highway, not far off from the volt. I doubt that, at 278,000 miles the volt will still be running strong with so little money needed to keep it running and road worthy.
Then there's the 238 miles per diesel gallon I get

Funny thing is about electric cars, VERY few can break the magic 40 mile range. Electric cars of the 1880's had a 40 mile range, the EV-1 had a 40 mile range and that strange thing Ford sold in the 70's had a 40 mile range. Yeah I know, if you put the same weight and/or size battery back that they had back then it'd go farther but it's interesting. Now, if they could do 80 miles I'd be all over it....nah, I'd keep greasing in the benz.

DrBoost...the Volt doesn't target pure highway driving, but it WILL do it...that's what makes it so different than your '92 Benz. While they aren't far off in highway fuel consumption, the Volt gets something like 5-20 times the city fuel economy depending on your typical commute. Of course, there's a hell of a lot more to it than fuel economy, but I'll ignore that stuff as you did. Would you still keep your Benz if 90% of your driving was in city or congested driving?

Also, not sure where you're pulling range numbers out of, but electric cars have been beating 40 miles of range since the dawn of their existence. Do some research and you'll find that in the 1900s, electric cars usually had about 50-100 miles of range before charging...but could only go 20-30 mph. Range isn't nearly as much of an issue as how fast you want to go, how comfortable you want to be, how quickly you want to accelerate, and how often you have to stop through that driven range. For reference, the EV1 is a 15 year old car and it had a range over 100 miles with modern driving requirements.

By the way, what the hell Benz do you have getting 35 mpg? That's a LONG way from any EPA fuel economy ratings...if you can do that good with the Benz, what makes you think you couldn't squeeze more out of a Volt than the EPA does on that also?

Bryce

DrBoost wrote: I don't like being lied to and GM said for a long time that the IC engine does not power the wheels directly. Now it's commonly known that it does, and always has. (who really WANTS a $40,000 Cobalt?).

and

DrBoost wrote: (who really WANTS a $40,000 Cobalt?).

These are two more of my favorite Volt-hate peeves. How do you feel you were somehow betrayed (by a company you don't like to begin with) by them not completely explaining the drive system? Actually, the Volt's drive system is quite different than traditional gas-electric hybrid drives, and that's probably the reason for Chevy's somewhat vague explanations. Basically, both the gas and juice motors drive parallel sun gears in a common planetary gearbox. Variable clutching of the first orbit gears provides a constantly variable drive ratio. That whole system is one of the reasons the gas/electric combo is so seamless, apparently.

And please, everyone stop calling it a $40,000 Cobalt. I thought I made that clear in the video. The appointments in the Volt are orders of magnitude better than what I'm used to from GM. I had an '85 Trans Am. I know how bad GM interiors can get. This is a quantum leap forward for them.

The next big step in any hybrid has really got to be the batteries. I think we're about up against the ceiling of battery technology for consumer use at this point, and that ceiling will have to be broken through for the next "big" step to be taken. Still, though, this is a heck of a use of current technologies. I'm anxious for more plug-ins to hit the market and see some other interpretations of the concept.

jg

JG, I am referring to the fact that GM said the IC engine does NOT directly drive the wheels. They said that in the beginning. As for the Cobalt reference, I'm referring to GM styling, interior fit and finish and size. I've seen the volt upclose and personal, inside and out. Is it better than the Cobalt? Yes. Is it more than twice as nice (it's more than twice the price), no. I don't remember if you said it in the video, but what fuel economy did you actually GET out of the car? How long/often did you drive it? I can't remember the numbers so I can't quote but, I think Automobile magazine did a run from southern MI to the UP of Michigan in a Volt and a Prius. Neither car did very well, low to mid 40's IIRC. That's what I'm going off of. Yes, for the people that ONLY drive to work, live less than 20 miles from work and NEVER drive anywhere else the volt kicks electrons. But for the folks that drive to a ball game, go on vacation and do other things than puch a clock, it's not the end-all-be-all that the Kool-ade drinkers say it is.
Don't get me wrong, I like it. I'm excited to see it out and selling. The EV-1 was incredible if not ham-strung by GM, so this car can really change the game. This car could be the most significant car in a loooooong time.

Nashco wrote: By the way, what the hell Benz do you have getting 35 mpg? That's a LONG way from any EPA fuel economy ratings...if you can do that good with the Benz, what makes you think you couldn't squeeze more out of a Volt than the EPA does on that also? Bryce

It's a 300D. And I know the Volt is intended more for the city commuter, but since I'm not one, and spend 60 mins on the highway every day I'm not impressed as it fails to meet my needs. That's why I like the Benz (good lord, did I just say that?). It does very well on the highway, very comfortable and get's good economy. It's pushed past 1/4 million miles with only maintenance done to it and I can get 5 people in it.

DrBoost wrote: JG, I am referring to the fact that GM said the IC engine does NOT directly drive the wheels. They said that in the beginning. As for the Cobalt reference, I'm referring to GM styling, interior fit and finish and size. I've seen the volt upclose and personal, inside and out. Is it better than the Cobalt? Yes. Is it more than twice as nice (it's more than twice the price), no. I don't remember if you said it in the video, but what fuel economy did you actually GET out of the car? How long/often did you drive it? I can't remember the numbers so I can't quote but, I think Automobile magazine did a run from southern MI to the UP of Michigan in a Volt and a Prius. Neither car did very well, low to mid 40's IIRC. That's what I'm going off of. Yes, for the people that ONLY drive to work, live less than 20 miles from work and NEVER drive anywhere else the volt kicks electrons. But for the folks that drive to a ball game, go on vacation and do other things than puch a clock, it's not the end-all-be-all that the Kool-ade drinkers say it is. Don't get me wrong, I like it. I'm excited to see it out and selling. The EV-1 was incredible if not ham-strung by GM, so this car can really change the game. This car could be the most significant car in a loooooong time.

I had it for about 4 days and averaged over 250mpg (that's as high as the gauge reads). But, like I said before, my normal cycle is right in its sweet spot. David had it for a few days and did a long freeway road trip and averaged about 45 if I recall correctly.

According to the onboard computer, the overall average since new was in the 44.X range. Our test car had been a press vehicle all its life, and had about 7000 miles on it. My guess is that most testers just rode it hard and put it up wet, so to speak.

I think one of the takeaway messages is that the Volt is a bit of a specialized tool. If you use the tool as a general purpose tool, it delivers general purpose results (mid 40s mpgs, similar to other gas/electrics). If you are in a position to take advantage of its specialized capabilities (plugging in when available, commutes in the electric range), it delivers far greater performance.

jg

JG Pasterjak wrote: I think one of the takeaway messages is that the Volt is a bit of a specialized tool. If you use the tool as a general purpose tool, it delivers general purpose results (mid 40s mpgs, similar to other gas/electrics). If you are in a position to take advantage of its specialized capabilities (plugging in when available, commutes in the electric range), it delivers far greater performance. jg

And for that, I am impressed.

Im currently doing a lot of posting in a thread on turbo-mopar.com about related issues and subjects. If it weren't difficult for new users to access it, id link to it.

Point being.. Thank You 'GRM Crowd' for being mostly intelligent. It is a breath of fresh air. There hasnt been anywhere near the same level of willful ignorance here that ive been dealing with over there..

Instead of writing a long post i will say that i agree with ForzaV12 and NashCo.

forzav12 wrote: I think the irrational hatred for GM by some has certainly tainted any possibility for a rational discussion re: the Volt. The lack of understanding regarding how and why the government promotes/encourages and yes, subsidizes various things is truly staggering. Everything from the space program to medicine is given additional funding. Why should new technology be any different? I did not hear a massive hue and cry about Nissan, Tesla, Fiskar, Toyota or any other companies that have recently received funding and other perks for vehicles that they produce? Why single out GM? Strange, indeed. Bailout? If that's the case, shouldn't we also avoid purchasing Nissan's(sheesh, they needed the French to remain solvent for Pete's sake), Toyota's, the entire Korean industry-or nearly every major auto manufacturer on the planet? All have recieved "bailouts" in one fashion or another. Whether through direct or indirect cash infusions from the motherland or protectionist legislation that has the same effect. GM has taken advantage of federal funding(as have others producing qualifying vehicles) to produce what many consider to be the most advanced vehicle on the planet-and they did it before such well funded rivals as Toyota. Additionally, the Volt has come out on top in every comparo I've read against somewhat similiar vehicles like the new gen Prius and the Leaf. Does it cost more than an equally sized vehicle? Yes-and every dollar is justified considering the leap forward this vehicle represents. The cost will come down over time and hopefully GM will remain at the forefront as these type of cars move closer to mainstream.

This isn't about an irrational hatred for GM, nor an ignorance of the significance and purpose of subsidies. Quite the opposite.

I'm not understanding is your irrational LOVE of GM for this.

What I'm missing is the point... What is the point of this car? There are some serious practical hurdles that GM seems to be ignoring, but the market can not, and will not.

So, let's say it is a competent commuter. I have no problem giving them that. The need for a good commuter implies that someone has a job, and needs to get there every day. In this group of people, price is an issue. A competent commuter can be had for significantly less. And the initial sticker is not the only cost. The complexity of the car also means more expensive maintenance and repairs, which decreases it's appeal as a basic commuter. Additionally, the electric range is less than half the average annual miles driven, so it really can't be seriously considered without looking at the gas only stats. If it necessitates a 2nd car, again additional costs.

How about saying it is cutting edge technology. OK, but the truth is that the car is outpacing current battery technology, and will be a dinosaur before the battery technology catches up. They could build a hydrogen powered car too, but the infrastructure does not exist to make it feasible, so it is quite impractical. GM also had the EV1, but chose to crush every one of them. It is a little tough considering the same company who killed the electric car 10 years ago posturing themselves as the world leader in electric technology.

Maybe it is tree hugging eye candy. That never sits well in my gut.

Next generation of Hybrid technology? Prius is well established, and can plug and play. The Leaf gets better MPGe, even the Lincoln MKZ gets 41 mpg with a $33K sticker price, and gets there in style.

Sporty? No, a bit of an underperformer.

I also can't overlook the corporate/ gubmint shenanigins. The US government is the primary stockholder in the company, but is also expected to regulate it. That doesn't work. Hard to take this car seriously (as the flagship for the new generation of technological advancement). It really looks like it is politically expedient to put all their eggs in the Volt basket, whether or not it is feasible.

I'm just not understanding this car, and think they have no idea what the sweet spot is to market it to.

However, let me say that I really liked the GRM review. Nice job, guys! You made me like it a little bit more!

SVreX wrote: I'm just not understanding this car, and think they have no idea what the sweet spot is to market it to.

If I bought it new vs a well equipped Cobalt, it would save me money after about 3 years. I don't have the numbers handy, but that's pretty un GM-biased.

How many years before it saves me money on my 42mpg $16K Hyundai

aussiesmg wrote: How many years before it saves me money on my 42mpg $16K Hyundai

and here we go again......

Both my wife and I have commutes ideal for the Volt (11 miles each way and 13 miles each way). We would be the users who add gas only a few times a year for vacations and such. I've got enough toy cars that the daily driver doesn't have to scratch the "OMG" itch. And the cost of commuting would go WAY down for us with this type of vehicle. The problems:

1. Price. Early adopters always pay high prices, so the price isn't unexpected, but it's a big reason a Volt probably won't see our garage. I am excited about what the technology means for other cars in the next 5-10 years though.

2. It's GM. Call me irrational, call me a right wing conspiracy fascist, whatever. I'm still pissed about the GM bailout, and I'm not ready to give them money. I don't like rewarding bad behavior, and all of the players in that escapade behaved badly.

In short, I'm really excited about the $20k Ford version of this car.

The point of the Volt is it's the first range-extended electric vehicle that can be used in exactly the same way as a comparable gas-powered vehicle while saving money on gas (potentially saving nearly ALL the money on gas).

I dont know where people are getting these repair costs from. ACCIDENT repair costs, yes, they are ridiculously high. General maintenance/mechanical repair? Hybrids have proven to be pretty cheap in that way so far. My 311,000 mile decade-old hybrid has had a clutch it didnt need, ONE set of spark plugs, and an idler pulley. It could use a swaybar endlink and a motor mount, but im living with it.

Additionally, the electric range is less than half the average annual miles driven,

How are you coming up with this? Did you find stats on how much of the average persons average annual mileage was from round trips more than 35 miles? Thats some pretty specific data, hope you'll share.

so it really can't be seriously considered without looking at the gas only stats.

There are very few vehicles in that size and weight class that can beat the Volt's gas-only stats. The Cruze, for example, weighs hundreds of pounds less and will only match the Volt's gas-only mileage on it's best days, in spite of the fact that they used basically the same 1.4L engine. Are there ANY vehicles that will beat it? Sure. But that doesnt mean that that one facet of the Volt's performance is weak enough to disqualify it from the running among that tiny group of vehicles.

OK, but the truth is that the car is outpacing current battery technology,

What does that even mean? The people who are converting their own vehicles to electric are using newer and more advanced batteries (but less advanced controls) so it's not like the cars coming out of a 4-year OEM development cycle represent the actual state of the art.

They could build a hydrogen powered car too, but the infrastructure does not exist to make it feasible, so it is quite impractical.

And here you have stumbled upon probably the greatest strength of electric cars.

It is a little tough considering the same company who killed the electric car 10 years ago posturing themselves as the world leader in electric technology.

The only reason they killed it is because they were able to buy off a regulatory body. What is the greater evil there?

Next generation of Hybrid technology? Prius is well established, and can plug and play. The Leaf gets better MPGe, even the Lincoln MKZ gets 41 mpg with a $33K sticker price, and gets there in style.

The plug-in prius doesnt match the Volt's stats and performance. The leaf has more electric range at the cost of losing about 70% of total range and an indeterminately high amount of overall utility compared to the Volt. The Lincoln Hybrid is one of my favorites but it is not nearly as advanced as the Volt and ultimately doesnt beat it at anything that im aware of other than price-before-incentives, and STYLE

One thing that keeps getting lost with the Volt's naysayers is this:

The WORST mileage you will get in a Volt is 42+mpg. In daily commuting there is a decent chance you may not use any fuel at all. This, combined in a useful-daily driver package is pretty damn cool.

Yeah, I'd love to see the Volt at $25K with a less snazzy interior, but I understand the pricing being high as it is the first of it's kind. Soon (as Alfadriver said) there will be many other hybrids with this technology, and no doubt competition will bring costs down.

When CD players were launched they were $1K, home computers were $5K, and I-Phones were $500. Soon this technology will be available to nearly everyone buying a new car.

how is this not a good thing?

Joe Gearin wrote: how is this not a good thing?

+1

Cotton wrote:

aussiesmg wrote: How many years before it saves me money on my 42mpg $16K Hyundai

and here we go again......

This is a very valid question. I'm not saying the Hyundai is better or worse but it brings up a good point. Aussiesmg can get 42 mpg and his car cost less than 1/2 the cost of a Volt. There is the added benefit of the electricification of the Volt but the point is made.

One question for those WHO ACTUALLY KNOW this. I read that when the batteries are depleated and the engine is acting as a generator and driving the wheels the charging output is intentionally reduced so the batteries won't actually be charging. Is that true? If so, it's typicall GM assinine-ness. It'd be nice to be able to put some juice in the battery while I drive to make my at home charge take less time.