GRM's new project car. No, really.

JG Pasterjak wrote:

The0retical wrote: Thanks for the update JG! Out of curiosity, with the type of driving that you seem to do what would be the advantage of a Volt over say a Leaf besides the extended range? From my understanding the only maintenance on a Leaf is rotate tires every 5k miles. Essentially eliminating any of the petrol based drive train would save you some maintenance over time no? Still interested to see where this goes and hopefully change my perception of the Volt a bit.

My typical driving habits mesh very well with the Volt's strengths. My commute to the office (three days a week—Wednesday and Friday I work from home) is exactly 20 miles each way. And it's very mileage-friendly, 60-65mph surface highway with few stoplights until I get into town the last four miles or so. A 70-75 freeway commute would not be nearly as efficient. When I hop into the car on a full charge, my range estimate currently shows 44-45 miles (it learns your habits and adjust the range estimates accordingly). After I make my 20 mile drive to work, my estimate shows 22-25 miles left, depending on how I hit the lights, how hard the a/c is running, etc. I plug in to the 110 at work, but I have made it back home on a single charge. Also, pretty much anything I do (groceries, Lowe's, parents, in-laws) is roughly between home and work, give or take five miles. I would say the only way I've changed my driving habits with the car away from what I'd normally be doing is an extra trip to Buffalo Wild Wings. They have a free 220v charger for customers, so we've gone there for dinner once or twice. It's outside of my usual route, and their food kind of sucks, but I like to support businesses that take creative approaches to marketing. Maybe I'll find something decent on the menu someday. jg

try the spicy garlic sauce, its basically a copy of WingZone's award winning garlic-parmesan sauce. very good, just the right heat/flavor ratio

So....will we be seeing an article on motor rewinding? That motor could probably use a few more winds to help it out of the corners at the autocross.

JG Pasterjak wrote:

The0retical wrote: Out of curiosity, with the type of driving that you seem to do what would be the advantage of a Volt over say a Leaf besides the extended range?

To answer this more specifically, if I lived in a more densely populated area, a Leaf would make way more sense. With a 70-80 mile range, I see too many excuses creeping into my driving habits. A trip to Orlando or Jacksonville would be out, and forget a long road trip. In the Volt, I could hop in and drive to Road Atlanta (425ish miles) with one gas stop, and end up with about a 45-48mpg overall average if I started out with a full battery. The other cool thing about the gas motor operation is that putting 9.3 gallons of gas into a tank takes about a minute and a half. Even if an electric car had a 300-mile range on the battery, moving that electricity into those batteries will take some time. Right now, the Volt uses roughly 10kwh to go 45 miles or so (I'm rounding for simplicity). That's about 4 miles per kwh. Let's assume electric cars of the future are twice as efficient and get 8 miles per kwh. Well, you'll still need about 37kwh to go 300 miles. And moving that electricity from point A to point B takes time. Even just transmitting that much power would take some time, let alone getting it into a storage battery. I once drove my 2011 Fiesta 425 miles without stopping for gas. jg

iceracer wrote:

JG Pasterjak wrote:

The0retical wrote: Out of curiosity, with the type of driving that you seem to do what would be the advantage of a Volt over say a Leaf besides the extended range?

To answer this more specifically, if I lived in a more densely populated area, a Leaf would make way more sense. With a 70-80 mile range, I see too many excuses creeping into my driving habits. A trip to Orlando or Jacksonville would be out, and forget a long road trip. In the Volt, I could hop in and drive to Road Atlanta (425ish miles) with one gas stop, and end up with about a 45-48mpg overall average if I started out with a full battery. The other cool thing about the gas motor operation is that putting 9.3 gallons of gas into a tank takes about a minute and a half. Even if an electric car had a 300-mile range on the battery, moving that electricity into those batteries will take some time. Right now, the Volt uses roughly 10kwh to go 45 miles or so (I'm rounding for simplicity). That's about 4 miles per kwh. Let's assume electric cars of the future are twice as efficient and get 8 miles per kwh. Well, you'll still need about 37kwh to go 300 miles. And moving that electricity from point A to point B takes time. Even just transmitting that much power would take some time, let alone getting it into a storafor gas. jg

I once drove my 2011 Fiesta 425 miles without stopping for gas.

A friend bought one and I went with him on few errands that took us on a trip of about 40 miles in L.A. It was good looking in chunky way, had decent sedan packaging, and O.K. fit and finish. We did the whole trip on electricity, and he just had 4000 watts of panels put on his roof so he really will be driving a fairly green runabout. For long trips he has a Passat TDI wagon.

It was pulled pretty good, handled well- good role control and damping, but lousy rock hard OEM tires that hollered early and often.

The best thing about it is how quiet it is- conversation and music are much are happy activities in it.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Not to derail this thread - but what happened to the diesel generator electric powertrain (ala locomotive)? Did it prove to be too expensive or problematic in implementation? It seems like a very simple solution to the recharging issue that would allow less/smaller batteries in a proven reliable package. Why did it get scrapped?

This combined with the pond-scum biodiesel would make a huge impact on our fuel imports.

4eyes wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Not to derail this thread - but what happened to the diesel generator electric powertrain (ala locomotive)? Did it prove to be too expensive or problematic in implementation? It seems like a very simple solution to the recharging issue that would allow less/smaller batteries in a proven reliable package. Why did it get scrapped?

This combined with the pond-scum biodiesel would make a huge impact on our fuel imports.

That's a good question, and I can only assume that the final answer was that the energy required to charge the batteries to keep the car going on battery power was not as efficient to produce with a diesel generator as it was with a giant powerplant. It was probably more efficient overall to let that gas engine turn its energy toward motivating the car, rather than charging batteries, which would then motivate the car. Someone smarter than me could probably do some quick math based on commonly available generators based on what they burn per hour in fuel vs what they produce in electricity.

Oh, and I'm up to 780ish mpg. But I've got a highway trip coming up this weekend. If I take the Volt that will bring that number down considerably. I may even drop into the 500mpg range with all those losers.

jg

Hey, JG

I like the volt. I'm glad you're doing this (Dad even was punny enough to call it an "electrifying idea") but can you use real numbers (i.e. MPGe, so you factor in the electricity you are using?)

Using "MPG" figures for a plug in hybrid - one usually powered by something other than gallons of fuel - is the sort of dishonesty I expect out of advertising execs and politicians. We expect the straight story from GRM, not spin.

JoeyM wrote: Hey, JG I like the volt. I'm glad you're doing this (Dad even was punny enough to call it an "electrifying idea") but can you use real numbers (i.e. MPGe, so you factor in the electricity you are using?) Using "MPG" figures for a plug in hybrid - one usually powered by something other than gallons of fuel - is the sort of dishonesty I expect out of advertising execs and politicians. We expect the straight story from GRM, not spin.

Busted.

I'm just stoked that I've gone 600 or so miles and only used .3 gallons of gas :)

MPGe is currently 84.46. My guess is that's about as good as I'll ever see, since I'm starting to drive the thing a little more aggressively now that I'm more familiar with the actual battery range. Actually, I drive pretty "normal" i.e. not many hypermiling techniques. Sure I'll take a little bit of an extra long coast before a particular couple of lights, but that's as much so I don't have to sit at the lights as to save juice. I'd say the thing I'm most conscientious about when it comes to charge-maximizing is I tend to take advantage of the pre-start feature that allows you to turn the a/c on from your phone or computer while the car is still plugged in to "shore" power. Besides the comfort of getting in to a nice, cool car, it saves a lot of voltage that would be otherwise used to cool down a hot interior. Plus, it's cool making your car do stuff with your phone.

jg

JG Pasterjak wrote:

JoeyM wrote: can you use real numbers (i.e. MPGe, so you factor in the electricity you are using?)

MPGe is currently 84.46. My guess is that's about as good as I'll ever see, since I'm starting to drive the thing a little more aggressively now that I'm more familiar with the actual battery range.

That's awesome!!! I live less than three miles from work, so something like this would be great for me.....it is just way more money than I'm willing to spend on a car.....down the road, though....

[and the bit with cooling the car off before the umbilical is cut is a nifty trick....I would not have thought of that.]

I wonder if the way to compare the various modes of power gas,gas/electric, diesel/electric, biodiesel, biodiesel/electric, could just be simplified to miles/$. Because that's what everyone really wants to know, the bottom line.

JoeyM wrote:

JG Pasterjak wrote:

JoeyM wrote: can you use real numbers (i.e. MPGe, so you factor in the electricity you are using?)

MPGe is currently 84.46. My guess is that's about as good as I'll ever see, since I'm starting to drive the thing a little more aggressively now that I'm more familiar with the actual battery range.

That's awesome!!! I live less than three miles from work, so something like this would be great for me.....it is just way more money than I'm willing to spend on a car.....down the road, though.... [and the bit with cooling the car off before the umbilical is cut is a nifty trick....I would not have thought of that.]

I live about 4 miles away from work, and right about the time my car is cooled down, I'm getting into the parking lot. Getting into a warm car during the winter would be a great quality of life enhancement.

Mitchell wrote:

JoeyM wrote:

JG Pasterjak wrote:

JoeyM wrote: can you use real numbers (i.e. MPGe, so you factor in the electricity you are using?)

MPGe is currently 84.46. My guess is that's about as good as I'll ever see, since I'm starting to drive the thing a little more aggressively now that I'm more familiar with the actual battery range.

That's awesome!!! I live less than three miles from work, so something like this would be great for me.....it is just way more money than I'm willing to spend on a car.....down the road, though.... [and the bit with cooling the car off before the umbilical is cut is a nifty trick....I would not have thought of that.]

I live about 4 miles away from work, and right about the time my car is cooled down, I'm getting into the parking lot. Getting into a warm car during the winter would be a great quality of life enhancement.

What is this "winter" thing you speak of?

Missed that this thread had been updated - I was just checking in to see if you had any new thoughts.

JG Pasterjak wrote: The other parameter is that supposedly it wants to go through a tank of gas every year. Although, looking at some of the numbers of voltstats.net (I'm "GRM Volt"), there area lot of folks who seem to be on a path of using less than that in the course of a year, so maybe HAL isn't as pushy as we're led to believe.

I have also read that it tries to calculate average age of the fuel in the tank which, to me, sounds like running 1/2 tank all the time would only use that much per year if you were so nuts, er, inclined.

And, yes, the engine basically has a hobbs meter monitoring the operating hours that lets you know when it's time for an oil change. jg

Unless you're driving it on gasoline all the time, your first oil change will be at 2 years. Total scheduled maintenance over the 3 year lease will be one oil change and a few tire rotations. As the owner of an array of needy cars, this is a godsend.

I had a long drive yesterday. 320 mile RT. I hit exactly 40 EV miles, cruising about 65mph with traffic. After that, the car averaged just over 40mpg for the following 280miles, mostly cruising between low and high 70s with the AC on. When the car was brand new (days old), I recall getting just over 35 in the same trip and being slightly disappointed with it. Did it break in? Or did someone put crappy gas in it at the dealer? Dunno.

Now back to putting my wife's E30 318is back together...

JG Pasterjak wrote: I tend to take advantage of the pre-start feature that allows you to turn the a/c on from your phone or computer while the car is still plugged in to "shore" power. Besides the comfort of getting in to a nice, cool car, it saves a lot of voltage that would be otherwise used to cool down a hot interior.

That is actually seriously berkeleying cool. I just hauled a 6-month old into a toasty interior and she wasn't happy. If I could tell my phone to tell my car to turn on the A/C, man oh man!

Don't let my wife read this, or we'll end up owning one of these things!!!

Am I missing it, or have there been no updates on this? JG, how's the Volt treating you? Anything you have fiddled with or plan to, yet? On the car, I mean.

Bryce

JG, you and the car still alive?

Sorry. Missed the return of this thread.

No, I have not been electrocuted yet, and am actually sitting down to begin writing the first installment of the project series, which brings me to...

This Wednesday, I will be interviewing Fox News on-air host Eric Bolling regarding his feelings on the Volt. If you're not familiar with Mr. Bolling, here's his review of the car. He and I probably have a few point of disagreement on his assessment, so I'm probably not going to pursue that angle too hard. I am genuinely interested in his feeling about why the Volt in particular is such a lightning rod for opinion and criticism, and what he feels the roles of alternative energy is in the future of transportation (if any). If anyone has any questions they'd like me to add to my list, chime in.

Additionally, it looks like I may have scored an interview with The Man himself, Bob Lutz. This isn't firm yet, and if it happens obviously we'll be talking about a lot more than the Volt, so I totally have my fingers crossed on that one.

Also, there's a set of KW coilovers in my garage waiting on installation, and some anti-roll bars on the way from Whiteline. I'm just waiting on a proper wheel and tire package and some scheduling to begin some real track testing.

Oh, and I'm about 2200 miles in and have gone through about two tanks of gas, both on longish road trips. My power bill has grown by about $16 per month (although I charge at the office as well. I estimate the company is paying about $8-12 per month to keep me juiced).

jg

JG Pasterjak said: Oh, and I'm about 2200 miles in and have gone through about two tanks of gas, both on longish road trips. My power bill has grown by about $16 per month (although I charge at the office as well. I estimate the company is paying about $8-12 per month to keep me juiced).

$16 wont put a 1/4 tank of gas in my truck. This is getting VERY interesting!

Get Lutz riled up when you interview him. He is funny when riled up.

Full disclosure on mileage:

• My record on a single charge so far is 44.3 miles. That was at night with headlights and a/c, and traffic wasn't too bad on my drive. On a "typical" day, I'd say 42 miles on a charge is a no-brainer for me, and if I wanted to game it, I'd say over 50 is totally doable without much effort. My commute is pretty mileage-friendly, though.

• Once the battery has exhausted its primary drive capacity, it's tough to gauge mileage because of the way the car's on board computer reports the data. Close as I can tell from calculations, in pure highway driving (73-76, cruise set, a/c and stereo going), it gets about 40-42 mpg. Around town I'd guess 42-45 mpg. Honestly, I haven't used enough gas yet where I really trust my calculations, but those numbers seem to jive with other sources.

• My drive to work is exactly 20 miles. A typical high-mileage day for me looks like this: Drive to work (20 miles). Plug in at office (110v) until around noon. Go to lunch (let's say 15 miles round-trip if we go to someplace out of the way). Plug back in when I return from lunch. Run errands on the way home (let's say an extra 12 miles added to the regular 20 mile drive). That would be a gas-free day.

• A full charge from the 110v takes about nine hours. But from the 220v it seems to take less then four hours. The car also has a programmable interface that lets you input your schedule and your power company rates so it will only charge when power is cheap or your schedule demands it.

• I've put gas in it four times now (two fill ups of 7-9 gallons and two top offs of under a gallon). I've never put gas in it without being asked a question at the pump by a civilian.

jg

The Fox interview EV mileage was interesting. Any thoughts on why he was running out of juice at the 20-25 mile mark? Top Gear style shenanigans?

Well, he mentioned the Lincoln tunnel, which indicates that he was commuting into NYC. Mileage must take a dive when in stop and go traffic. That, and it sounds like he has an ax to grind. He also says in the end of the interview that on gas it only gets 30 mpg. Then one of the other panel members says that she wouldn't take it for free because it would leave her stranded after it ran out of electrical power... someone obviously wasn't listening in class.

MrJoshua wrote: The Fox interview EV mileage was interesting. Any thoughts on why he was running out of juice at the 20-25 mile mark? Top Gear style shenanigans?

I'm guessing a commute into Manhattan is probably a little hilly and a lot erratic. I would also assume he was engaging in some "worst-case-scenario" type driving, with a heavy foot on the throttle and brake, which is a perfectly fair way to test a car.

Ambient temperature can also adversely affect EV range. In particularly cold temps, the car will use some energy to warm the battery pack to proper operating temperature, thereby using some of the electric that would otherwise be used for propulsion. The ideal way to handle that situation would have been to "prestart" the car on shore power and let the house voltage do the job of warming the batteries. He might not have been aware of that feature, however.

jg

I'm really surprised that he didn't comment on the patchouli oil cabin misters; they're a standard feature, after all!