GRM's new project car. No, really.

He's right - during pre-production testing the GM PR mill widely touted the Volt as an electric car, with a gas powerplant only to as a range-extension generator, and they promised huge MPGe. It may have just been Lutz trying to talk up the car to the media, but GM had to issue follow-up press releases correcting both counts. The car which hit the showrooms was more like a plug-in hybrid which only beats the Prius on MPG in specific circumstances. The Volt may have been a game-changer for Detroit, but not for a consumer base already familiar with hybrids.

It's wholly possible that the never directly motivate the wheels part was media speculation, I'm also having trouble finding any direct statement by GM about how the drive train worked (still trying though.)

That 230 mpg argument was fuzzy math at best which really didn't lend any creditability to the Volt.

Edit:

Many of the old GM press releases have been pulled down. The statement that keeps recurring is

"The Chevrolet Volt is not a hybrid. It is a one-of-a-kind, all-electrically driven vehicle designed and engineered to operate in all climates."

Which is where I believe that no motor to drive train connection came from. Plugging the quote into Google the 7th link has that exact quote on a GM page (media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/news/news_detail.brand_gm.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2010/Oct/1010_volt_launch) which is now blank with no cache sadly.

Now that I sound like a conspiracy theorist I'm going to go.

Edit 2: Here's Insideline analysis with links.

Digging into these things will definitely set off paranoia alarms. The signal to noise ratio of the information out there is pretty poor.

jg

I would never buy one (or any other hybrid for that matter, my 12-year-old Saturn is arguably more "green" than electric cars), but I'll read what you write about it.

I've got an idea: The whole technical and political run-up to the volt's production has been hashed out to within an inch of it's life. The past is the past. Is the volt worth a damn now? What can be done to it with what results? let's stick to the facts, Jack.

I'm know I'm going to come of as a defensive fanboi here but I'm really not. The car wasn't even on my radar until it was about to go into production. I didn't follow all the hype.

The car which hit the showrooms was more like a plug-in hybrid which only beats the Prius on MPG in specific circumstances.

If by specific circumstances you mean any trip less than 150 miles, than you are correct, but you're falling into the trap of treating the car like a everything-sacrificed-for-efficiency device, which it is not. JG has undoubtedly driven a bunch of different Prius's yet I don't see him laying down green for one. Why is that?

EDIT: Kreb is right. Deleted a bunch of stuff.

""""

While we are talkin technology. Has GRM addrrssed E85. The station down the street just started selling it at about a dollar a gal less than E10.

nderwater wrote: ...The car which hit the showrooms was more like a plug-in hybrid which only beats the Prius on MPG in specific circumstances. The Volt may have been a game-changer for Detroit, but not for a consumer base already familiar with hybrids.

I think the point here isn't to see if it's a better hybrid since as you point out, they're pretty even, but to see if its a better CAR than a prius.

I would have preferred to see a serial hybrid with an electric motor on each wheel with a plug in, and a small efficient gasoline engine as the range extender. Honestly it seems like that is what GM initially marketed the car as, without the motor in each wheel that was Honda back in the day, but didn't come through with it.

What they did seems to have laid the ground work for further developments provided battery technology gets better or if super-capacitors ever materialize instead of attempt to revolutionize the industry with decades old locomotive technology. I personally felt that they missed a huge opportunity.

I'm not sure even with the amount of driving I do that the Volt would ever pay for its self in the time that I would own one over say a Mazda 3 Skyactiv.

dean1484 wrote: While we are talkin technology. Has GRM addrrssed E85. The station down the street just started selling it at about a dollar a gal less than E10.

maybe not GRM, but a friend of mine has...

Subaru 2.5 with 2.0 heads, 14:1 compression, lots of boosts on E85.

In an autocross car.

Running on low boost right now, high boost dyno tuning next month.

E85 is some awesome stuff for boosts, something like 105 octane and runs really cool.

The0retical wrote: What they did seems to have laid the ground work for further developments provided battery technology gets better or if super-capacitors ever materialize

How many microwave ovens would you have to dissect to power a car
http://www.stevehv.4hv.org/MOCs.htm

dean1484 wrote: While we are talkin technology. Has GRM addrrssed E85. The station down the street just started selling it at about a dollar a gal less than E10.

Sounds like a deal - until you realize that it has a lower energy density than gasoline, so you need more of it. Roughly 30% more. Now look again at the cost differential

E85 is really race gas. Wicked octane numbers and cold intake temps. Turbo cars LOVE it if they're set up for it. Plus it smells nice in the dyno room.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: I'd absolutely love an article in GRM about building a hi-po EV or hybrid, whether it's a LoCost sort of build, modifying a gas/diesel only car, or just modifying an existing hybrid/ electric vehicle to wring out some extra performance and/or MPG. .

Do you have a subscription? In the last two years, they've detailed a Miata EV and a Fiero hybrid (mine), both DIY. Not super detailed how-to techy kind of stuff, instead they were features on cars dudes built.

Bryce

mfennell wrote: I'm know I'm going to come of as a defensive fanboi here but I'm really not. The car wasn't even on my radar until it was about to go into production. I didn't follow all the hype.

The car which hit the showrooms was more like a plug-in hybrid which only beats the Prius on MPG in specific circumstances.

If by "specific circumstances" you mean "any trip less than 150 miles", than you are correct, but you're falling into the trap of treating the car like a everything-sacrificed-for-efficiency device, which it is not. JG has undoubtedly driven a bunch of different Prius's yet I don't see him laying down green for one. Why is that? EDIT: Kreb is right. Deleted a bunch of stuff.

Until a few days ago, a Prius was at the top of our list for our hybrid project. It is, after all, what most people think of when they think of hybrids.

But the Prius, now a few generations old, has grown up and gained the acceptance of the masses. There's no mystery left. No one has ever approached me at Burger King and spouted nonsense about a Prius. Maybe I'm just going to the wrong Burger Kings.

jg

JG Pasterjak wrote: No one has ever approached me at Burger King and spouted nonsense about a Prius. Maybe I'm just going to the wrong Burger Kings.

Try Woody's BBQ.

JG Pasterjak wrote: Until a few days ago, a Prius was at the top of our list for our hybrid project. It is, after all, what most people think of when they think of hybrids. But the Prius, now a few generations old, has grown up and gained the acceptance of the masses. There's no mystery left. No one has ever approached me at Burger King and spouted nonsense about a Prius. Maybe I'm just going to the wrong Burger Kings. jg

That said, I've never seen a comparo of the Prius, Insight and Fusion from a performance viewpoint. I've head that the Prius is the least sporty of the three. That might change now that they've got multiple models though.

irish44j wrote:

BoxheadTim wrote: Well, I for one think that saving gas is Grassroots...

except "saving gas" and "motorsports" are diametrically-opposed concepts...... new magazine idea: Grassroots Commuting Magazine Issue 1: - Prius vs. Volt vs. Insight DC Beltway Fuel Economy Comparo. - Citicar vs. ForTwo Parking Comparo - "Save the CVT" - GRM Staff Compeition: Who can maintain green leaves on the Prius Dashboard for the longest? - GRM Economy Challenge: Drag and Autocross Compeitions, all without going over 2500 rpms or 50% throttle. - Wittiest Personalized Hybrid License Plate Messages - Feature: How to Hypermile in the Left Lane Without Getting Shot, Beaten, or Cursed At.

Saving gas and motorsports go hand-in hand. The less you burn, the less you have to pit.

Now, if we're talking about autocross or a 20-minute sprint race, OK. But efficiency and speed are both aims to a goal of driving as far as possible over a given period of time...which is what racing boils down to.

This is the longest thread I've seen in a bit, conversation is good.

In reply to JG Pasterjak:

Please cancel my subscription immediately.

speedblind wrote:

irish44j wrote:

BoxheadTim wrote: Well, I for one think that saving gas is Grassroots...

except "saving gas" and "motorsports" are diametrically-opposed concepts...... new magazine idea: Grassroots Commuting Magazine Issue 1: - Prius vs. Volt vs. Insight DC Beltway Fuel Economy Comparo. - Citicar vs. ForTwo Parking Comparo - "Save the CVT" - GRM Staff Compeition: Who can maintain green leaves on the Prius Dashboard for the longest? - GRM Economy Challenge: Drag and Autocross Compeitions, all without going over 2500 rpms or 50% throttle. - Wittiest Personalized Hybrid License Plate Messages - Feature: How to Hypermile in the Left Lane Without Getting Shot, Beaten, or Cursed At.

Saving gas and motorsports go hand-in hand. The less you burn, the less you have to pit. Now, if we're talking about autocross or a 20-minute sprint race, OK. But efficiency and speed are both aims to a goal of driving as far as possible over a given period of time...which is what racing boils down to.

oy vey....

clearly nobody is understanding my (sarcastic) point here. Obviously fuel mileage is important IN motorsports, especially endurance races that use alot of fuel. We would all like to go to a trackday and come home with the fuel gauge still showing "F".

My POINT (again, facetious) had nothing to do with that. We'd all like better fuel economy no matter WHAT we're doing in a car......commuting, pleasure-driving, racing, whatever.

My POINT was that motorsports, by definition, are a gratuitous use of fuel - no matter how little or how much fuel you're using. If you want to use as little fuel as possible (overall), motorsports does just the opposite since few things you can do in any given car will burn as much fuel as going 120mph at the track....

Yes, people want their performance/race cars to be as fuel-efficient as possible - mostly for the sake of less pit stops, etc.

People do not say "hey, I want to do time attack, so let me go find a car that gets 50mpg." They sayd "I want to do time attack, let me go find a fast car."

How many of you HONESTLY have bought a track car with fuel economy as the primary decision factor (and not acceleration, braking, power, handling, etc)? None of you, I'd bet.

I have nothing against the Volt or this review. I don't see anything terribly "grassroots" about it, but there are plenty of things in GRM that aren't really "grassroots" per se. It's not a big deal. I was just poking a bit of fun at JG.

JoeyM wrote:

JG Pasterjak wrote: No one has ever approached me at Burger King and spouted nonsense about a Prius. Maybe I'm just going to the wrong Burger Kings.

Try Woody's BBQ.

Leave me out of this.

bravenrace wrote: In reply to JG Pasterjak: Please cancel my subscription immediately.

I'll personally refund you out of my fuel savings.

By the way, I'm probably not supposed to share this information, but if I get yelled at I'll just say I was drunk. Anyway, we had a dude cancel over the electric Miata story. To each his own, clearly, but I hope I never feel that threatened by technology or alternative methods of doing something cool (unless that technology is highly threatening killer robots).

jg

wow, I didn't know people ACTUALLY cancelled their subscriptions to magazines over things they read. I thought it was just a funny thing to say to voice displeasure.

I am looking forward to this project. We need to replace the wife's Buick in the near future. Something like the Volt would probably be perfect for her in that most of her driving is trips of 10 miles or less. And with electricty here costing $0.10 / KWH and gas fill-ups once every 2 months(only do once a month now) it should be fairly economical.

Problem I have been running into is that everything written about any of the hybrids seem to be either "Fanboi" stuff or "fluff pieces" in some magazine.

I dig this, I still frequent ecomodder.com, not because I'm a hippy, but because why not, I mean no offense but gas powered is old hat, and it gets even more boring once you've added boost and a Megasquirt. Even direct injection means very little. HCCI is cool but it's just controling gasoline combustion in a diesel cycle (I went to grand school for this sort of thing). In the end, it's the new tech that pushes the envelope and I'm all for it. I personally never thought about a hybrid until the Volt came along, because as an engineer 'I get it'. Please keep us informed of your progress...

(the only part I didn't like about the electric Miata was the silly scripted letters on the back screaming out it's existence)