Group B

http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7918 This is a thread I started at a model car forum I go to and got a good response. I love rally, to me it's the purest motorsport. That is why is my car thread, I said I wanted to rallyx, rally, hillclimb. Group B was just mental! The manufacturers just went wild with their ideas on this one. I gained a lot of knowledge about Group B, WRC, and rally in general from my 17 years of living and it hasn't changed with me, I want to do this! Rally today, other than technology, hasn't really changed much, still the cars FAST, the spectators are wild, and the drivers are the real pros.

If you read the thread then you'll know, just curious, I was wondering if anyone got to see these back in it's day or saw it on TV or get to own/work on/race one in a historic rally/hillclimb. And yes, I was infuriated when they dropped WRC coverage on Speed too, I want Speedvision back! We have nothing else over here as far as I know.

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=44iibIEeWGM&feature=related sad music, half makes me want to cry

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=TyHYj-oo1wk&feature=related better suited music

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Mag3kA2J8&feature=related the best music

Why don't they have group b cars anymore? They seem much more exciting than any WRX or EVO or anything like that...

...Not that there is anything wrong with the WRX or EVO or anything.

Joey

joey48442 wrote: Why don't they have group b cars anymore? They seem much more exciting than any WRX or EVO or anything like that... ...Not that there is anything wrong with the WRX or EVO or anything. Joey

My understanding is that the cars got really friggen fast and the fans were still operating under moderately fast car stupidity levels.

MrJoshua wrote:

joey48442 wrote: Why don't they have group b cars anymore? They seem much more exciting than any WRX or EVO or anything like that... ...Not that there is anything wrong with the WRX or EVO or anything. Joey

My understanding is that the cars got really friggen fast and the fans were still operating under moderately fast car stupidity levels.

Correct. IIRC, the Audi Quattros,et al, were pushing around 800-1000hp and were lightning quick. Combine this with over-zealous fans who just had to get the photo over their favorite car/driver from a head-on perspective. There were a few major accidents, people died. The FIA finally deemed it too dangerous and killed the class.

Don't forget the Group N and A cars, they were also cool! and the Group 2 and 4 that came before.

The Group B cars were basically experiments: twin charging, shortened wheelbases, turbos, AWD, etc. They were FAST! Look at the Mazda RX7, they made that AWD and it didn't do too bad but for the street? not sure. The homologation numbers were met and with the ending of Group B it all kind of fell. The reason why we don't see these anymore? well, they are "too" fast and by today's standards, maybe not mine or yours, unsafe and to some, dangerous. Trust me, I would do anything to drive a Group B car or see these race, heck I would do anything to drive a rally car or go to an event! To some, better and more exciting than the STi or EVO, can be an opinion but most will agree, these were the ones who put on a show. I like a few Evo's, they are great cars and so are the STi's but actually believe it or not, today's rally cars might only be a hair off of a Group B time if they did a test. The power to weight ratios, power delivery and traction, and power/torque of toady's rally cars can compete with the same aspects of the Group B cars but the Killer B's were just faster and more powerful. With that being said, the fans and spectators play a roll in the banning because they would stand in the middle of the road as one would fly toward them, they were crazy and caused accidents which gave the FIA and WRC some mixed thoughts. Some of the accidents you hear about were caused by the fans, like that RS200 crash that killed I think 3 people and injured a few more, the driver, was trying to miss a spectator that was dodging him off of a crest and got loose and slid into the crowd. With them being fast, they just pulled the plug and after Toinoven's death Audi pulled out so, it was a great series though, still the best!

I drove and Co-Drove in the late 70's and 80's. I also was a stage captain on rallies I did not run in. I got to have to run out in front of John Buffum at the end of a stage when he blew the finish control and I had to get him stopped as the stage ended at a T into a highway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I collect Group B kits. They were our F1 of rally. Anyone know of model clubs in Fla or where I can find modfel show info. Moved here and cannot seem to get organizes. At least herte we have the rally school with Buffum as instructor.

I've heard somewhere that the modern rally cars are just as fast around the course as the Group B cars. The new ones make way less power but they corner much better so it supposedly evens out.

thatsnowinnebago wrote: I've heard somewhere that the modern rally cars are just as fast around the course as the Group B cars. The new ones make way less power but they corner much better so it supposedly evens out.

I have also heard the same thing. Mostly AWD system developments and engine developments. Computer controlled diffs make a huge difference.

If you want to see a comparison, check out the results from this year's Targa Newfoundland. Sprongl was there with a Group B Quattro, while ACP was running a modern Mitsu EVO with fewer modifications. It's not a direct comparison because the Mitsubishi was far less modified and wasn't up the level of a full-on WRC. I didn't get to see these cars run in person because they started after me in the race, but I do know the Quattro was the angriest sounding car out there. Not the smooth roar of the big V8s, but an engine that sounded weapons-grade and on the edge of self-destruction.

You can see the raw times for the stages by selecting "Targa stages in details" for each leg (aka day) and looking at "actual". The Group B is car 105 and the Mitsu is 904. There was also an STi fielded by Subaru Canada that would be comparable to the Mitsu, car 906. http://www.rallyscoring.com/results/2008/Targa/index.htm (doesn't work well in Firefox)

There were a lot of deaths during the Group B years, and you can't blame them all on the spectators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYhiJeRPgdw&feature=related

That's a good video as well. There are a few parts of it that give me goosebumps. I'm not sure if this was posted in your thread, but this video is about an hour and a half of Group B footage compiled over the years they ran. It has the raw sound recording, so no stupid music added in. The download link should still work.

http://www.toljadneki.hu/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2160&mode=flat&order=1&thold=1

Keith wrote: If you want to see a comparison, check out the results from this year's Targa Newfoundland. Sprongl was there with a Group B Quattro, while ACP was running a modern Mitsu EVO with fewer modifications. The Group B is car 105 and the Mitsu is 904. There was also an STi fielded by Subaru Canada that would be comparable to the Mitsu, car 906.

105 - 2.23 - 1.62 - 2.32 - 8.45 - 6.65

904 - 2.33 - 1.63 - 2.32 - 8.18 - 6.52

906 - 2.25 - 1.63 - 2.23 - 8.48 - 6.93

Looks pretty much even to me. But there is still something about the Group B cars that make them seem more exciting.

I think that cost was also a bit of a contributing factor in the demise of Group B. Similar to what has happened in F1, the cost to build a contender had the potential to exceed the return to the manufacturer.

It seems that the WRC may be walking this particular tightrope again.

There's been concern about that for a few years, and I think the WRC is working to avoid it. There's decent manufacturer participation these days, and I'm expecting to see Mitsubishi back shortly. The problem is that there's always a way to go faster if you spend a bit more money...

NickF40 wrote: The Group B cars were basically experiments: twin charging, shortened wheelbases, turbos, AWD, etc. They were FAST! Look at the Mazda RX7, they made that AWD and it didn't do too bad but for the street?

The RX-7 Group B car was not AWD, not turbo. It was a RWD 300hp peripheral port campaigned by a private team or two while trying to ENTICE Mazda to run in Group B. Mazda themselves only ever ran in Group A.

Rod Millen made a one off 4wd RX-7. This was not an internationally run car and definitely not a Group B car. IIRC it was only for hillclimbs but I'm, fuzzy on that.

A good portion of Group B cars were rear drive. 037, R5, Celica, Silvia (I think? butt ugly thing), the very short lived RS1700T, RX-7... They were outclassed towards the end but they tended to do well on tarmac rallies and long distance endurance rallies.

The Metro 6R4 and RX-7 were both naturally aspirated, as well.

Trust me, I would do anything to drive a Group B car or see these race, heck I would do anything to drive a rally car or go to an event!

You ever see European rallycross where there are RS200s, S1s, 205 T16s, etc? Those aren't replicas. They're just used rally cars over there.

BTW - Did you know the F40 was intended to be a Group B car? That's why the engine was reduced in displacement.

thatsnowinnebago wrote: I've heard somewhere that the modern rally cars are just as fast around the course as the Group B cars. The new ones make way less power but they corner much better so it supposedly evens out.

They're not as fast.

They are lots faster.

Some of the modern 2wd, naturally aspirated, rev limited cars are faster than Group B, on tarmac.

At least, when driven by humans they are!

I think it was partly the element of danger that made Group B so cool. Modern rally cars may be faster, but they're also much more refined, and no where near as aurally exciting.

Of the Audi Quattro, from the March '08 issue of 'Octane':

Early cars had a simple ignition interruptor switch on the gearknob so the driver could momentarily kill the ignition during slam-through full-power clutchless upshifts. Later, there was an automatic clutch punched to the floor by a huge hydraulic ram that could break a driver's misplaced foot. Scary - but pioneering stuff.

There's a video out there of Walter Rohrl in the S1 at Pikes Peak that shows those two things. Both the button on the shift knob and the clutch pedal moving by itself. Pretty cool stuff.

Luke wrote: Early cars had a simple ignition interruptor switch on the gearknob so the driver could momentarily kill the ignition during slam-through full-power clutchless upshifts. Later, there was an automatic clutch punched to the floor by a huge hydraulic ram that could break a driver's misplaced foot. Scary - but pioneering stuff.

Must...install...in...daily driver!

That'd make commuting more fun, and easier!

EDIT: That Audi is the most badass-sounding vehicle ever.

Roddy ran the 4wd RX7 in the SCCA Pro Rally series in the early to mid '80s, as well as at Pikes Peak. Later his son Rhys ran the car at the Peak, winning his class the first time out.

Roddy also built a pretty radical Hyundai AWD turbo funny car for the Peak well before Buffum built any Tiburons.

The Peak factory Quattros also had an interesting compressed air system to keep the turbos spinning on closed throttle to avoid stalling the turbo and losing boost. Primitive by today's standards, but that was more than 20 years ago. 1987 was probably the best-ever year at the Peak, with Rohrl in the wild Sport Quattro "batmobile", a couple of private big Quattros, three factory Peugeot 205T16s, a Lancia Integrale, a Metro 6R4, an RS200 and miscellaneous others. I was lucky enough to be there. It was WAY cool.

Was there some sort of advantage with the compressed air system compared to the regular anti-lag they used before? I'd never heard of that before.

Ryan9118 wrote: Was there some sort of advantage with the compressed air system compared to the regular anti-lag they used before? I'd never heard of that before.

Just hearing of it makes me think the turbochargers would probably last a "teenie" bit longer then anti-lag

"Lack of displacement did affect torque output, and that meant that the Delta S4 could "only" accelerate from a standstill to 60 mph in 2.5 seconds. On gravel." - from this article: http://jalopnik.com/cars/jalopnik-fantasy-garage/crowning-the-king-of-1986-audi-quattro-s1-vs-ford-rs200-vs-lancia-delta-s4-vs-peugeot-205-ti6-270058.php

Definately one of the defining factors of Group B, is the sound of Group B. Take a modern WRC or SCCA Pro Rally car, and they make 300 hp, and oodles of torque...but they aren't all that high stressed. I mean, people can buy production "versions" of the cars with very close to the same power (lacking the torque though), and they can be tuned to have ridiculous amounts of horsepower. Group B was like tuning the engine for a drag race....and then making it last the entire rally stage. The sound was just raucous, raw, mesmerizing.

I just wish I could have seen them live back then. Curse my luck to have been born too late ('83), and in Canada.

While I agree that group b was extremely cool. When it ended, the cars the cars that were created were damn fast, however suspension was now where near as developed as today. As was mentioned above, sprongle had a group b car here in North America. He achieved great success with it, but was eventually surpassed by the latest generation of subie and mitsu's. I remember seeing coverage of a rally in Quebec, where buffum came out of retirement to pilot an early evo, and was able to be sprongle. He(buffum) was short on horsepower, but said suspension and handling were far better(and he would know). If group B was allowed to continue to develop, there would be some monstrous machines out there, but it was the path to financial ruin for the teams(along with the safety concerns). AWD was a relative late comer to group b, so it is even more amazing what they did running 2wd. I could only imagine what group b would be like today.

Somewhat off topic, some what on topic....

I have never done models before, but have a friend who does a ton... They always look so cool.

With absolutely no skills in model building, is my first one bound to suck? I want to build an Lancia 037 model, and suggestions on where to pick one up?