In reply to gixxeropa :
I built and bought my Jeep Gladiator using the configurator. Used the website to build what I wanted, then gave the dealer exactly what options I wanted, down to the floor mats. They ordered it, had it built, then on their lot in 10 weeks. It took a $1k deposit, but they also locked the sale price, even if things changed after the order was placed (unlike Ford, who bumped 2022 Bronco orders to 2023, then forced their price increases onto the buyer without recourse).
I would 100% buy that way again if need be. Go talk to your local dealer, they'll work with you. And if not, find one that will. I traveled to DC for my Gladiator (a day's trip from where I'm at), but saved more than enough to justify it. Time at the dealership was ~2 hours, and that was all doing paperwork. I never met my salesperson until the day I picked it up.
STM317
PowerDork
8/9/23 1:14 p.m.
gixxeropa said:
In reply to Tom1200 :
So that makes me wonder what the cheapest new vehicle with a 5k or 7.5k pound towing capacity is? I'd prefer some storage on the outside but that's not a necessity, so I could deal with a smaller suv or something
SUV's can rival pickups in tow rating while seeing heavier depreciation. A used Suburban or Expedition will often give you similar performance to a Silverado or F-150 for less money.
Durangos/Grand Cherokees will do 5-7k, but starting MSRP is just as high or higher than low end half tons. Gently used might depreciate enought o be tempting here.
New Rangers, Colorados, and Tacomas can be configured to tow within your range too.
In reply to Puddy46 :
might be what I'd do then. I can make a reasonable truck in the configurator, but everything on the lot is an $80k top trim truck
I couldn't justify (or afford) a newish full size pickup so I ordered and bought a 2023 Ford Maverick. I don't tow anything and don't need AWD here in Florida so I went for the hybrid model. It does everything I need it to while delivering 38+ mpg on my 80 mile daily commute.
For comparison's sake:
1993 Ford Ranger XLT Supercab
1993 MSRP: $12,346
2023 adjusted price: $26,068
2023 Ford Maverick XLT Hybrid: $26,445 (sticker price for my build)
In terms of the capitalism thing- 30 years ago, OEMs offered a lot of bottom of the line vehicles- when we first started leasing a tow vehicle- we got a Ranger for well under $200/mo- and that repeated a few times. Then a shift happened where someone figured out that the game isn't to sell the most cars, it's to make the most money. So volume was sacrificed for profits. That was pretty obvious in cars like the Taurus going away, but it happened with trucks, too. While you *could* get the base 6cyl engine, they were hard to get, and people walked into larger trucks.
Then the other shift was how CAFE was calculated. And this really meant the death of small trucks for a little while. Thankfully, the market has kept the demand up, and OEM's have offered some pretty capable small trucks with amazing mileage. But smaller large pick ups as well as marginal profit ones have gone away for good.
And when you look at truck sales over that time, one would think they would contract a little, but they have done the exact opposite. Meaning that almost all profits from the large OEM's come from truck sales. As I was ending my career, it was told in a department meeting that the ICE Truck developers were paying for the EV future. And I'm not kidding.
gixxeropa said:
so for those of us that want a relatively new tow vehicle, whats the best option? seems like buying used is a false economy right now because you're getting a truck with 100k miles on it, but paying nearly the same as a new one. Do i have to bite the bullet and cash out my retirement for something new?
The F150 I bought less than a year ago was 3.5 years old with 50k miles (1.5 years and 10k miles left on factory powertrain warranty) and was 57% the price of the current new equivalent. It did take time and patience (that I very nearly exhausted) to find though, especially between my unicorn (in the US) option and budget desires. IMHO this XLT is too 'basic' of a truck to be worth $64k, but at $37k I couldn't be happier with it.
Hint: Don't be afraid of Canadian market used trucks, if anybody is dealing in them near you. They can be bought and imported enough cheaper than US market used trucks can be had, that the importers can often sell the equivalent truck at a noticeable discount.
In reply to gixxeropa :
Dealers seem to think they're the only game in town. The Jeep dealers around me had $5k 'market adjustments' on everything they had on the lot. A 4 hour trip each way, a little patience and homework saved me at least 10 grand compared to if I bought the same vehicle locally.
alfadriver said:
In reply to Tom1200 :
Given size and capability expansion over time, IMHO, the '95 F150 you speak of is closer to a modern Ranger than the current F150. Or at least in between the Ranger and the current F150. The 2.3L Turbo makes quite a bit more power than a '95 5.0l.
^ This. Our new F150 with the 3.5EB has almost double the towing capacity that our '07 did (10.9k vs 6k). Some F-150 specs that have up to 14k towing capacity. That's more inline with a 1 ton truck from '95.
For people who buy actual work trucks and or go to a lot of races I get it; for the rest of the buyers I'm still dumbfounded.
My wife loved her mini van but when the time came to replace it they had nothing but loaded up models. She balked at this and bought an SUV. I do not understand why more people don't do the same. When I say do not understand I really mean why aren't they cheap like us?
As someone who is part of the business and finance arm of an organization I get why the trucks are marked up but again I don't comprehend why people actually pay it.
In reply to Puddy46 :
I was mildly interested in a Gladiator (the truck kind not the sweaty Roman arena kind) until I saw what dealers were asking.
CAinCA said:
alfadriver said:
In reply to Tom1200 :
Given size and capability expansion over time, IMHO, the '95 F150 you speak of is closer to a modern Ranger than the current F150. Or at least in between the Ranger and the current F150. The 2.3L Turbo makes quite a bit more power than a '95 5.0l.
^ This. Our new F150 with the 3.5EB has almost double the towing capacity that our '07 did (10.9k vs 6k). Some F-150 specs that have up to 14k towing capacity. That's more inline with a 1 ton truck from '95.
But who actually needs a 1 ton truck?...............granted it's a very clever business strategy.
In reply to Tom1200 :
My guess is feature creep. Once you have a nice feature, you don't want to give it up. I never had heated seats for the longest time, but now, I won't buy a daily driver without them. And when they started bundling the nice features with others that you couldn't omit, you get bloated window stickers.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Why buy a cheap car when you can get an expensive one with 300 month financing at 9.59% ?
In reply to Tom1200 :
There are dealers that will sell you a new Gladiator off the assembly line built to your spec for well under invoice. Mine was 6% below invoice (not sticker) in the heat of the parts shortage chicanery. Some dealers (thankfully) still work on pure volume.
There are other angles as well. I became a member of Tread Lightly, a trail preservation organization that has a 1% below invoice sales perk. Some dealers will stack their already existing incentives if it means they get the sale. I did the same with the SCCA membership when I bought my old GTI.
In reply to Tom1200 :
I had a conversation with a Ford salesman four years ago. As we're walking down the row of trucks to the one I was interested in, we pass 12 F-150 Raptors. I asked how long they would sit there at their $75K price. He said 2-3 weeks, which surprised me . "Who buys $75K trucks?" I asked. "People who can't afford them." was his response. Basically, people come in, like I did, to price out an F-150 and then convince themselves that "for only $200/month more I can have a Raptor". The salesman told me they basically do his job for him.
Tom1200 said:
CAinCA said:
alfadriver said:
In reply to Tom1200 :
Given size and capability expansion over time, IMHO, the '95 F150 you speak of is closer to a modern Ranger than the current F150. Or at least in between the Ranger and the current F150. The 2.3L Turbo makes quite a bit more power than a '95 5.0l.
^ This. Our new F150 with the 3.5EB has almost double the towing capacity that our '07 did (10.9k vs 6k). Some F-150 specs that have up to 14k towing capacity. That's more inline with a 1 ton truck from '95.
But who actually needs a 1 ton truck?...............granted it's a very clever business strategy.
As has been brought up in other threads, who really needs more than two seats to commute to work? The market is more what people think they need and want and less what they really need. It's been that way forever.
Trucks have transitioned from working vehicles to cars and status symbols. And it's been that way more around the last 30 years. Otherwise "sport" trucks like the Lightning (and I'm talking the one 30 years ago) would have fallen on deaf ears.
In reply to alfadriver :
Trucks are just today's version of the full-size family car of the 60s and 70s. When do we start calling them "soccer mom trucks" anyway?
Posted for comparison:
ram 3500 4x4 tradesman crew cab short bed.
2016 msrp: $56,500, advertised and paid $44,500
2023 msrp: $76,825, advertised at $72,545
so the same truck, 7 years apart, is msrp $20k more and advertised at $28k more.
they're just greedy at this point. I gather soon we'll have 10 year car loans. Mine is paid off and I'm doing everything I can to make sure it's my forever truck. Fluid film, keeping up after everything, etc.
I'm the guy that uses the 3500 for everything it's made for. It towed daily till covid, and spent a decent chunk of its miles with a 2 car enclosed trailer. I'm not taking 2 cars in a trailer behind a half ton regardless of what it's "rated" for. I pull tractors, skidsteers, drag logs through the woods, and knock down 24-25mpg on the highway without a trailer when I'm just running a bed load of stuff around
In reply to Tom1200 :
I recently reported on driving a low mileage Flathead ford pickup. Actual survivor. Looked really decent . Paint was even pretty decent original upholstery.
It wasn't pleasant. No radio, Noise , rattles, shifting was slow and too easy to grind gears ( no syncro in 1'st ) plus the power was well, dull.
It really needed just about flat footing it to get it up to freeway speed and then the bouncing! Expansion strips which in my 2016 F150 is just noise, nothing you feel.
Noise all around you, ( you can hear the chains holding the tailgate slapping, the springs in the seat squeaking, and feel the chassis flexing.
In short it wasn't any fun. Or comfortable.
Now my 2016 F150 V8 4x4 XLT, towing package including auto trailer backing, went out the door at $34,000 included was 2 years free service. ( oil change, tire rotation, free washes, etc). Yes it was Feb of 2017 but the price including bringing it from Chicago on a transporter.
gixxeropa said:
In reply to Tom1200 :
Why buy a cheap car when you can get an expensive one with 300 month financing at 9.59% ?
This made me laugh so hard because I'm utterly convinced that is the way buyers currently operate.
I have the same reaction as people who put pineapple on pizza (half my family is Italian and we're from NYC); I immediately go to "who the hell raised you and what kind of values did they have?"
In reply to alfadriver :
yes, the status symbol is the only explanation I can partially comprehend.
I say partially because I'm counter culture and I can't quite wrap my head around status symbols either.
Patrick said:
Posted for comparison:
ram 3500 4x4 tradesman crew cab short bed.
2016 msrp: $56,500, advertised and paid $44,500
2023 msrp: $76,825, advertised at $72,545
so the same truck, 7 years apart, is msrp $20k more and advertised at $28k more.
they're just greedy at this point.
There could be other factors at this play but that would require a look at the entire economy. Greed definite plays a role though.
Dad bought his XLT FX4 3.5EB F150 brand new for MSRP in 2020. I recall it being about 35k. I'd hate to know what it would go for today. [derail]If I could've bought it with a manual trans/transfer I would have bought one at that price too....[/derail]
DeadSkunk (Warren) said:
In reply to alfadriver :
Trucks are just today's version of the full-size family car of the 60s and 70s. When do we start calling them "soccer mom trucks' anyway?
I think this is very true. Today's Ram Limited has more space and luxury than the Chrysler New Yorker of 40 years ago, plus it'll haul all the family's stuff along in the bed. Today's trucks are just big 4 door family sedans with more capability.
