Holy Cow! Major ST-Category shake-up proposed for 2012!

Just caught this at the SCCA website: Feb Fasttrack PDF

Basically they are changing ST the class with newer cars, bumping the light stuff (89 Civic Si) into STS, and making the mods equal across all categories. They are also outlawing class-hopping (good), introducing an allowbale-only cars list like STR (good), and loosening some of the mods, such as the cat allowances and ECU tuning (both good).

Unfortunately this would make my car (1.6 Miata) immediately uncompetitive, as it would not stnad a snowball's chance in hell of competing with the 240SX's, Civic Si's, and other bumped ST cars.

Looks like turbo or bust for me in 2012...

At least you have a place to play- Alfas are not allowed.

It's still in the proposal stages. If you don't like it, then make sure to write in your opinions. If you want to read more, there's a lengthy discussion about this over in the ST section of SCCAforums.com

Javelin wrote: Unfortunately this would make my car (1.6 Miata) immediately uncompetitive, as it would not stnad a snowball's chance in hell of competing with the 240SX's, Civic Si's, and other bumped ST cars.

How did you come up with that conclusion? ST and STS currently run nearly the same times (which is a big reason why the fast ST cars are getting moved). So if your car is competative in STS now it stands to reason it still will be if the proposed merger goes though.

Plus the CRX Si is already in STS and it's arguably faster than the Civic's and all the other ST car's you're worried about.

Last year REGIONALLY, ST Civics beat STS Miatas 7 out of 9 events. But not by much usually. Typically within a second. So in our little corner of autocrossing, it should make for a good race!

In reply to jeffp:

Sounds like it's time for the Miata guys to step up their game then

I really just don't get it.

They lump together the 94-05 Celica, moving them UP into STS. (HAHAHAHAH SERIOUSLY??!?!)

But the 90-93 stays in ST? Considering that the 90-93 is mechanically identical to the 94-99, i'm not quite so sure i understand that.

The proposal to allow "flashed" ECUs in ST could get interesting, too. I notice that they haven't said anything about changing class for the last remaining turbo cars in ST.

A 323GT with a chipped ECU would be a hp/lb ratio to reckon with, and yes, i realize power isn't everything, but they don't exactly handle badly, either.

But overall, i like it. I think it'll bring a LOT of variety in the ST class.

Next question: Who wants to trade me a nice 92-93 Celica GT COUPE for my MX6?

So now it seems that CRX is the answer...

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: But overall, i like it. I think it'll bring a LOT of variety in the ST class.

I'll be happy with some variety.

Read all of the other proposals in addition to the car shake-up. They are talking about allowing plug-and-play "piggyback" ECU's, which are available for the Civic and not for the 1.6 Miata. They are proposing redacting the cat rules to just 1 cat, somewhat close to stock, with no EPA labeling. They are allowing big brake kits. They might be opening up LSD's for all.

My big beef is they are taking the two biggest classes in all of autocross and combining them into 1. That run grouping is going to suck.

Not to mention the classing structure doesn't make sense (ES to STS to ESP? Why no ES > EST > ESP), the rules allowances are all over the place throughout the category, and the enforcement at the local level is going to be impossible.

Javelin wrote: Just caught this at the SCCA website: Feb Fasttrack PDF Basically they are changing ST the class with newer cars, bumping the light stuff (89 Civic Si) into STS, and making the mods equal across all categories. They are also outlawing class-hopping (good), introducing an allowbale-only cars list like STR (good), and loosening some of the mods, such as the cat allowances and ECU tuning (both good). Unfortunately this would make my car (1.6 Miata) immediately uncompetitive, as it would not stnad a snowball's chance in hell of competing with the 240SX's, Civic Si's, and other bumped ST cars. Looks like turbo or bust for me in 2012...

Wait............

You're only going to run local events and you're not prepping the car to the limit of the rules. A re-org won't make much difference unless you're consistently DFL. If you are the perennial DFL contender, the problem probably isn't the car.

Why all the angst?

Javelin wrote: Read all of the other proposals in addition to the car shake-up. They are talking about allowing plug-and-play "piggyback" ECU's, which are available for the Civic and not for the 1.6 Miata. They are proposing redacting the cat rules to just 1 cat, somewhat close to stock, with no EPA labeling. They are allowing big brake kits. They might be opening up LSD's for all. My big beef is they are taking the two biggest classes in all of autocross and combining them into 1. That run grouping is going to suck. Not to mention the classing structure doesn't make sense (ES to STS to ESP? Why no ES > EST > ESP), the rules allowances are all over the place throughout the category, and the enforcement at the local level is going to be impossible.

I'm a little confused between this post and your thread about shocks for your Miata....?

Tom Heath wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: But overall, i like it. I think it'll bring a LOT of variety in the ST class.

I'll be happy with some variety.

Amen.

Blop

Soma007 wrote: In reply to jeffp: Sounds like it's time for the Miata guys to step up their game then

YES!

oldsaw wrote: Wait............ You're only going to run local events and you're not prepping the car to the limit of the rules. A re-org won't make much difference unless you're consistently DFL. If you are the perennial DFL contender, the problem probably isn't the car. Why all the angst?

I actually won a Regional Championship once and would like to again. Nationals maybe even one day (just not in this car). My angst comes from the fact that ST is the most popular category in all of SCCA autocrossing and they are proposing some pretty drastic changes without much thought to anything other than Nationals, IMO. A guy just starting out with minimal mods to his Miata/RX7/Civic is going to be disuaded very quickly by the absolute butt-kicking the newer cars will dish out.

SCCA Autocross is avery inclusive, "status-quo" type of competition, and even though I'm all for a shake-up, all I smell is money with this one. (New SCCA road-racing for the B-Segment cars and suddenly the STAC is shoving a rules proposal around for a street-tire autocross class for the same cars and thereby destroying the 2 healthiest classes and healthiest category in the process...)

the only thing I wonder about (well two things) is all the cars they're proposing to move to STS along with the Civic... the same cars that Civic drivers have been wupping up on for yrs... now those same cars will have, not only the Civics that they couldn't outrun but the Miata's and the CRX's.. throw in the odd MR 2, and the 240 SX's the 2.5 RS's, the Integra's etc...... will have the same problem just worse than before

second.... I don't understand the angst against class hoping.... if I have a under-prepped car for a class no one would have a problem with me running in that class... but lets say I had a STS prepped 2.5 RS ... it meets all the requirements for STU (except the proposed exclusion) ... it shouldn't be able to out run a STU prepped STI or Evo... yet a friend of mine did just that, beat all 'cept one ... is he the bad guy here or does it fall on the lack of ability of the others in the class that he beat...

same question with Andy Hollis and his move to STX... unless they change the rules all he would have to do is add a LSD to the Civic and it would HAVE to move to STX (assuming I remember the rules correctly) the only change is he would probably be even faster.... I see it as a lack on the folk already in the class...

how 'bout if he had decided to put some R-comps on and run SP let's assume for a moment that he kicked but again... would they try to outlaw that too ?

no matter how much you massage the classes.. (as long as the SCCA uses the type of classing that they do, as opposed to NASA's way) there will still be cars that dominate certain classes

pretty soon there will be a class for each and every car out there so everyone can have a jacket

This is like deja vu... from three days ago... go read the other forum thread... seriously... there's a little more insight into the "why's" of the proposal by folks who have better knowledge than we do.

Javelin, your classing structure is simply not realistic. Not now. Not tomorrow. Not ever. I'm not really disagreeing with you that the current system is bazaar, but we aren't starting from a blank slate here, and such comments make any of your other ideas lose validity. It's simply not going to happen, so get over it.

If anything, i think the rules are allowing the slower cars that were ignored previously a fighting chance. Unless i'm missing something? I see it as letting more people have a chance at being competitive with their newer cars that may not have the luxury of being able to have a second dedicated car.

In today's ST, could you even imagine a Scion tC trying to run ST? It would be AWFUL. With the proposed change, you'll see a lot of the "fringe" cars moving up to the faster half, and it'll give them the motivation to really work at it instead of just showing up and thinking "Oh well, another field of 1989 Civic Sis again."

There are a LOT of those "fringe" cars that were mere seconds off the Civics. Saturns, Focuses, Proteges, Celicas, Sentras, Neons, and who knows what other newer cars for that matter.

these are the cars that they are proposing to move to STS...

the new ST – All currently eligible ST cars with the exception of the following:

Honda Civic (86-2000)

Acura Integra (90-2001)

Sentra SE-R (91-94)

Nissan NX2000 (91-94)

Toyota Celica (94-2005)

Dodge/Chrysler Neon

Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS (98-2001)

Nissan 240SX

which of them will now have a better chance of being competitive than they had before... when all the had to contend with were the Civics ?

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: If anything, i think the rules are allowing the slower cars that were ignored previously a fighting chance. Unless i'm missing something? I see it as letting more people have a chance at being competitive with their newer cars that may not have the luxury of being able to have a second dedicated car.

This does seem to be the case and Andy stated as much - an effort to get newer cars into ST.

Now that I think about it, this proposal almost makes me consider prepping the TDI for ST again... since a powerbox added to an ALH engine gives it a substantial increase in power... and ST rules allowances would give the crappy Mk IV suspension a fighting chance. But against the spec-Civics - forget it.

wbjones wrote: these are the cars that they are proposing to move to STS... the new ST – All currently eligible ST cars with the exception of the following: Honda Civic (86-2000) Acura Integra (90-2001) Sentra SE-R (91-94) Nissan NX2000 (91-94) Toyota Celica (94-2005) Dodge/Chrysler Neon Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS (98-2001) Nissan 240SX which of them will now have a better chance of being competitive than they had before... when all the had to contend with were the Civics ?

I admit that i don't have an answer for that, unless in STS they change the mod rules. Some of those cars are limited more by tire size restrictions than the Civics are, as an example.

The 94-99 Celica for example is JUST porky enough that it would benefit from more tire than 225 width.

The list of proposed STS cars (except fro the EF and maybe EG) will be doomed at the national level...and when it is all said and done I fully expect the ZX2 and the EGT/Protege (BG) to be on the list as well...as well as early DOHC Saturn SLs

Ian F wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: If anything, i think the rules are allowing the slower cars that were ignored previously a fighting chance. Unless i'm missing something? I see it as letting more people have a chance at being competitive with their newer cars that may not have the luxury of being able to have a second dedicated car.

This does seem to be the case and Andy stated as much - an effort to get newer cars into ST. Now that I think about it, this proposal almost makes me consider prepping the TDI for ST again... since a powerbox added to an ALH engine gives it a substantial increase in power... and ST rules allowances would give the crappy Mk IV suspension a fighting chance. But against the spec-Civics - forget it.

In the end, if this goes through, i WILL have my 92-93 Celica GT Coupe. I'm psyched that a car that i know inside and out might actually have a chance at being competitive somewhere.

ST_ZX2 wrote: The list of proposed STS cars (except fro the EF and maybe EG) will be doomed at the national level.

Yeah, it sucks, but aren't they doomed currently anyways?